President Obama

[Calax]

Hey Calax. You have never heard me say that government does not have a role to play in the economy. As far as I know the constitutionality of the Sherman Anti Trust Act, the Clayton Act, The FLSA, Robinson-Patman, Glass-Stengal, just to name a few that provide protections against the things you just named and a somewhat level economic playing field has ever been called into question and no one that I have heard has ever called for their repeal.

 

Now what I do have a real problem with is the Federal Government using taxpayer dollars to perform a leveraged buyout of a private company, forcing bond holders of said company to relinquish their shares at 10% of their value or face prosecution. And then turning management of that company over to the union bosses who supported the election of the President whose administration seized the company. I also have a serious issue with a government that passes a law that compels private citizens, on pain of penalty, to enter into a private contract with a third party solely as a condition of being a citizen. To make matters worse the US Constitution does not grant them the power to do any of this. They just do it because who will stop them?

Eh, with all the discussion of free market economics it seemed like you were leaning (like Ron Paul) to "No rules" economy.

 

For the auto buyouts, It was really the only option if we wanted to save the industry (see the economist article). And on the Obama care thing, that WOULD have enforced the insurance mandate, but would have offered an option that was financed and serviced by the feds. So you didn't have to buy from a third party, You could have gotten it from the feds... but that got shot down during amendments.

 

I mean if you have an issue with the mandates as a whole... not just for Health Care, but also Auto Insurance and the like, then that's an entirely other matter. I think it's mainly designed so that if I get in a minor fender bender, I won't lose my entire livelyhood because somebody with a suit thought that I was easy pickings.

 

I'd also take exception to your notion that state governments are incapable of managing themselves and left to their own devices will become dens of corruption and tax havens. Politicians at the state level face reelection more frequently than at the federal level and with smaller constituencies are far more in tune with the needs of their state and people than the Monster-On-The-Potomac. On top of that, many appointed positions at the federal level are elected offices at the state level. I know you've heard me say this before but my home is in Tennessee. The government of my home should be in Nashville, not Washington.

The reason I said that is because each state would end up laying down it's personal tax code, with the Feds having a much smaller amount of control over the legislatures. So you'd end up with companies like Monsanto and Disney being able to HEAVILY influence smaller poorer states to create tax havens in return for moving their company to that particular state. The more you decentralize that aspect, the easier it is for corruption to seep into the system. I mean, consider if we did turn EVERYTHING except defense over to the states as was originally laid out in the Constitution... Iowa would be deader than a doornail because of the lack of federal subsidies to farmers. Most states right now are taking money from the federal government for their operations. One of the few states that's actually returning money is California, so they'd be... ok on their own.

Now I'll grant you that the government is only going to get bigger, more intrusive and more destructive no matter who wins. That is why I believe with complete certainty there will be a break up at some point. Hopefully not in my lifetime but I think it is inevitable. As for the short term, voting pragmatically means picking the guy who will screw you the least and that for me at least is Romney, hands down. Unemployment is way up over the last four years. The value of the dollar is falling. Costs of everything are rising. Obama terminates the off shore oil drilling leases, puts the majority of the gulf coast oil production out of business then sends US tax dollars to Brazil so they can drill for oil off shore. Meanwhile China is building rigs on the oilfields we have abandoned in the gulf and contracting operation of those rigs to Cuba. I assure you neither country gives a damn about environmental concerns in the gulf. For the first time in our history we are importing refined fuels. Canada wants to help build a pipeline to sell us their oil and Obama tells them to bugger off and then blames the rising costs of fuel on a guy whose been out of office for four years. (Yes there is a lot more to fuel prices than that but declining supplies never, ever make anything less expensive.)

 

Anyway I've rambled enough.

Technically oil production is up... and Unemployment numbers over the last 4 years are skewed because Obama took office after the economic mess had become a disasterous fireball flying down hill at mach 4. I think around this time, Bush Jr and his crew were throwing out TARP to try to save it... and then couldn't figure out where things went.

 

And the Candian Oil Pipeline isn't a very good prospect. It's a heavy investment on the short term, but generates about a dozen jobs overall. I don't know what it'd do to the gas prices, but *shrugs*.

 

Personally, the one thing that should be heavily invested in is a non-car based infrastructure. High Speed Rail or some other alternative would probably do fantastic, and cut down the use of oil.

[Nepenthe]

I found this an interesting analysis that puts into words a big part of the way things appear to be to us on the other side of the pond: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/scocca/2012/11/mitt_romney_white_vote_parsing_the_narrow_tribal_appeal_of_the_republican.html

[Hurlshort]

I now the unemployment numbers are skewed and all that, and I don't give any president credit for this, but it looks like unemployment is going down, even if it is slow. We are adding jobs every month.

 

In fact the economy as a whole has been steadily recovering. This is coming from a guy who went through a foreclosure and has a terrible credit score, by the way.

 

Again, I don't actually give the federal government credit for the recovery, I give it to the people of our country.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I can't wait for this damn election to be over. I'm tired of getting calls asking me to vote a straight republican ticket or people bothering me when I'm gassing up. 2 more days and it will finally be over.

 

Personally I want Obama to win for the sole reason that I live in Texas and predict that quite a few rednecks will do something stupid and get themselves killed. Which means less congestion on my way to and from work due to their vehicles falling apart or an unsecured item falling from their truck. Also the sheer amount of rage will tickle my funnybone.

[ravenshrike]

I'm still waiting to hear the reason polls are weighting +11 Democrat and more. With exit polls at +7 Dem in the 2008 elections and the difference in enthusiasm levels, you would have to be INSANE to assume an even more lopsided vote. Yet all the polls are running higher registered Dem mixes.

[Meshugger]

I can't wait for this damn election to be over. I'm tired of getting calls asking me to vote a straight republican ticket or people bothering me when I'm gassing up. 2 more days and it will finally be over.

 

Personally I want Obama to win for the sole reason that I live in Texas and predict that quite a few rednecks will do something stupid and get themselves killed. Which means less congestion on my way to and from work due to their vehicles falling apart or an unsecured item falling from their truck. Also the sheer amount of rage will tickle my funnybone.

 

 

It's alright.

[Calax]

I'm still waiting to hear the reason polls are weighting +11 Democrat and more. With exit polls at +7 Dem in the 2008 elections and the difference in enthusiasm levels, you would have to be INSANE to assume an even more lopsided vote. Yet all the polls are running higher registered Dem mixes.

Because you A) Haven't provided any form of backup to your point...

 

and B) Even Faux News is saying that that's not happening

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/interactive/2012/10/31/fox-news-poll-race-for-white-house-dead-heat/

[Guard Dog]

I'm still waiting to hear the reason polls are weighting +11 Democrat and more. With exit polls at +7 Dem in the 2008 elections and the difference in enthusiasm levels, you would have to be INSANE to assume an even more lopsided vote. Yet all the polls are running higher registered Dem mixes.

 

In all honesty enthusiasm levels are just not quantifiable. From what I read the polling data is weighted to reflect the turn out of the last election which is anywhere from D +7 to D +15 in some places. That's not new, they've been doing that since the 90's. There really is no way to know who is going to vote and who isn't but I suspect a big turn out this time. That's not to say the claims of poll bias are without merit. I really don't know personally but I suspect there are biased and unbiased polls out there.

 

It's all a bunch of hooey actually. The voters are going to do what they are going to do and the polls are really just grist for the media mill while they count down the days to the election.

 

I know no one has called or polled me but them my state is really not in contention.

[Guard Dog]

Long conversation no one wants to read again

 

 

Nah I've never been a big fan of a true laissez-faire system. There do need to be some restraints to keep things in balance but it should be a silk rope, not heavy iron chains as our current President believes. And auto insurance does not compare to health care because you are not required to own a car an do not have to pay for auto insurance if you don't. Obamacare is inescapable. But what is so terrifying about it is they do not have the authority to do it, yet is has been done. Do you realize that under the precedent this sets they could require everyone to buy a GM car? And have the IRS come after you if you don't?

 

Oil production in private land and leases is up. That is only because Obama can not do anything about those projects. Yet. And he can certainly not take any credit for that since all he has done is shut down domestic oil drilling and exploration everywhere he was able to. I read in Forbes a few weeks ago that US oil companies are overproducing for fear of interference from him in a second term in their own private leases.

 

As far as how states would behave left to the own devices, I'm sorry Calax, you are just wrong on that one. But that's ok, We are not going to come to any kind of agreement there.

 

I though you'd get a kick out of this. All the gun manufactures must be rooting for Obama to win: http://business.time...ff-the-shelves/

 

One note on unemployment numbers though. There have been a lot of outcry that the numbers are skewed to make Barry O look better. I doubt that is true but I do know one thing that IS true. If someone is unemployed long enough for their benefits to run out, they are no longer counted as unemployed. That unemployment number is not the number of people who cannot find work, it's the number of people who cannot find for and are still receiving benefits. The real number is a lot higher than what you see in the media.

 

Anyway, the Obama admin has done a lot of truly stupid and frightening things the past four years. But this is the one that made me maddest of all and if they did nothing else, this would still make me vote against them: http://www.infowars....-as-terrorists/ Especially after refusing to call the real terrorists what they are.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Guard Dog

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

One note on unemployment numbers though. There have been a lot of outcry that the numbers are skewed to make Barry O look better. I doubt that is true but I do know one thing that IS true. If someone is unemployed long enough for their benefits to run out, they are no longer counted as unemployed. That unemployment number is not the number of people who cannot find work, it's the number of people who cannot find for and are still receiving benefits. The real number is a lot higher than what you see in the media.

 

 

It doesn't have anything to do with benefits running out. Unemployed people are not counted for the unemployment % if they are out of the workforce by choice. This can be anything from giving up looking for work to being a stay at home mom. They still get counted if they are looking, no matter if they are receiving benefits or not.

[Calax]

GD, they already had the insurance precedent in the form of the fact that in order to even DRIVE you have to have insurance on the car you're scooting around in. And in America, a car is not a luxury, it's a necessity (having an inscure mode of transit is not condusive to having a job).

 

As to the fact that we need an insurance mandate, understand, I'm coming at this entire thing from the perspective of a working stiff at a company that is considered the lowest, easiest, and worst paying groups in the United States. McDonalds did NOT offer me an insurance benefit, or any benefits what-so-ever as a crew member or trainer until Obamacare was enacted. They got SOME at the managerial level (and I also get vacation benefits once I become properly certified), but if I got sick to the point of hospitalization, I'd loose my house, clothes, computer and everything else I own to pay for the bills that incurred, and the time missed could be used against me to fire me from the job I was doing.

 

If you know of any universe where that'd be considered good thing, please inform me. You might not see the benefit from having the mandate from the perspective of a "career" job, but at my level it's required for me to be able to stay financially afloat even under normal circumstances do to my meds, dr visits, and other necessities to keep my mental illness at bay.

 

And personally, I'd prefer a president who doesn't say that "getting married before having kids" is an effective form of gun control.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

And personally, I'd prefer a president who doesn't say that "getting married before having kids" is an effective form of gun control.

 

Please tell me you're making this up.

[Calax]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0BVxO_61HE

 

About the three minute mark, from the second debate.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0BVxO_61HE

 

About the three minute mark, from the second debate.

 

To be fair, he is right that getting married before having kids reduces the chances of poverty(although that has more to do with having time to get a career started and money saved before paying quite a bit of money to take care of a child, than 2 parents and traditional values). Still a dodge on his part, and quite strange logic. Quite a bit of gun violence comes from those who did grow up in a "traditional" household, just look at the Colorado theater shooting.

[BruceVC]

I am planning on staying awake from 1 am tomorrow to watch the Election live on CNN. Its really interesting to see the commentary and the electoral map of the USA as you see each state going red or blue

[Guard Dog]

To be honest I'm not a big fan of Mitt Romney but for me it was no so much a matter of voting for him as against Obama. I don't work for a big company anymore. I own my own business now (with four equal partners and one employee) and that man is making life VERY difficult for us and the worst is yet to come.

 

It seems my entire adult life election choices have been about choosing the lesser of two evils. The only times they haven't been is when I voted for third party candidates for President like in 1996 and 2004.

 

Whatever happens tonight, whomever wins, I hope it is not close. I hope the outcome does not hinge on one closely contested state. I hope there is no disparity between the popular and electoral votes. I don't expect there will be a landslide of any kind but I hope the issue is clearly settled by the time polls close in Hawaii. Both side have armies of lawyers ready to sue everyone in sight if it is close and with the country so polarized nothing good will come of that.

[Syraxis]

Obama has been a mixed bag for me, as much as I want to vote for an alternative candidate... Romney just isn't the answer. Honestly what ARE his views? He has a history of being a moderate governor, last election and this one he's far right, with the exception of the first presidential debate where he comes off as moderate only to lean back to the right.

[obyknven]

[HoonDing]

The Irish, too?

[rjshae]

I just want the politicians to scurry back in their holes so we can return to the normal flux level of disinformation. So, hooray for the election!

[BruceVC]

It seems like Obama has won another 4 years, yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay

 

CNN has called a Democrat victory, we just need the results for Ohio to confirm this.

[Hurlshort]

I'll be watching this pretty closely as well.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/06/gay-marriage-results_n_2074188.html

[BruceVC]

I'll be watching this pretty closely as well.

 

http://www.huffingto..._n_2074188.html

 

Holy Smoke that is interesting, this is really a progressive move if these states pass this legislation. I salute their efforts

[Brannart]

The biggest thing about the gay marriage and legalizing pot in this election is not so much they are actually winning in a few States...it is that it is no big deal they are winning.

 

Man this country has changed alot in a short time.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Brannart

[Guard Dog]

Very disappointing. Bitterly so. I just can not get my head around why anyone would vote for this man. I really try to put myself in the perspective of his supporters and I just can't see it. Even some of you who I've been trading posts with for years and have come to respect after a fashion, I just do not understand why he gets the support he does.

 

For the third time in our history the winner of the popular vote has lost the election. That said I still think the electoral system is essential (rather than a straight popular vote).

 

The upshot is I won't have to change my investment portfolio. Right now I have everything placed so I protect as much as I can from the damage he has and will do, especially here currency devaluation is concerned.

 

Tomorrow I'm buying more gold, more silver and most importantly, more ammunition. I suspect the value of all three is going up tomorrow.