One last thought.

 

What is this obsession with gender and sexuality in RPGs?

 

It makes sense.

 

If a lesbian plays a game and is forced to only flirt with men, it's kinda awkward for them. Same for gay men being told to flirt with women, same for a bisexual who can't hit on their same gender. It's simply the game telling them to be something they're not.

 

 

Solution is simple. Don't include any kind of romantic relationships.

 

I'd agree, but I also find simple flirting to be natural. While I definitely disagree with those who want romance to be a central theme, I think romance (or rather basic attraction) is simply TOO natural to exclude entirely. It'd be kinda weird.

New Vegas for example didn't have any romantic relationships, and yet it provided perks that turned your character gay, lesbian or bisexual, awarding special dialog with certain characters. You were incapable of actually building a relationship, but it let gay men for example actually hit on that gay guy who was complaining about being a bachelor.

Edited September 20, 201213 yr by Longknife

You could make your own character whatever gender and then pretend to be the opposite gender.

You could make your own character whatever gender and then pretend to be the opposite gender.

 

You could make your own character whatever gender and then pretend to be the opposite gender.

 

What? You mean like use our imagination or something?! Madness I say, madness!

Representation should be a big deal, especially in gaming which is predominatly white/male/heterosexual/cisgendered.

 

I would imagine you could allow for transgender/LGBT roleplay by giving a few variations on the same dialogue based on not just a persons sex, but their gender and how they want people to respond to them, i.e.

 

1) Biologically male, male gendered, responded to as a male.

2) Biologically female, female gendered, responded to as a female.

3) Biologically male, androgynous gendered, responded to as either or ambiguously.

4) Biologically female, androgynous gendered, responded to as either or ambiguously.

5) Biologically female, male gendered, responded to as a male.

6) Biologically male, female gendered, responded to as a female.

 

I'm not sure sexual preference needs to be an identifier, afterall it isn't in real life. When you walk into a room do you know who is gay/straight/bi and would you want everyone to treat you such a way without ever having actually spoken to you before?

Edited September 20, 201213 yr by Overspawn

Also, and I'm sure it's been mentioned somewhere in this thread already, but I thought I'd reiterate that transgender is different from LGB in the LGBT grouping.

 

It is possible to be transgender and straight, transgender and gay/lesbian, etc. The identity and sexuality are in fact different things.

 

As Longknife said earlier, though, transgender should be easily addressed if you can choose your identified sex and your orientation (if there are romances). OP seems to feel that's not enough, hence my initial post suggesting there is a deeper personal issue at work that's inapplicable to the game development at hand.

 

Stuff like this... this is why I chose "no" to the romance polls; I'm very much all or nothing--if it can't be done inclusively and very well, then don't even bother going halfway. There are too many variables involved with the variable races and cultures and political biases. Half-assed implementations are annoying and the resources better used elsewhere in content that's accessible to everyone.

As someone else pointed out turning a whole race androgynous seems like a rather important decision with a myriad of dialogue and world consequences so I think that its unlikely. As for adding some sort of elemental race that also seems lie it would require much work... In the sense that people would have to react to you differently (meaning new dialogue options,different story elements etc...). And I think that really is the kicker. They could include an option during character creation for transgendered people but whats the point if the world won't react to it?

The more options in an RPG, the more playability and characters a player can have, which is as people stated the point of an RPG. It makes no sense to have fewer options, the more options the merrier. Variety is a good thing. If people want to play themselves in a RPG, that's their business and it's still role playing because they are putting themselves into a role in another universe. Sounds boring to me, but honestly I think everyone puts a little of themselves into the characters they play.

 

If I, a straight white female, wants to be creative with the characters, as many options as possibly should be there. One play through I may want to play a transgender, black character with a heart of gold. Then another play a flat chested, masculine and eastern looking woman who is very feminine in personality. Then play in another game, a white, very feminine, pretty looking man who is a **** and sleeps with lots of women.

 

It's not just about fairness, but it's also about playability of the RPG. Not everything will be achievable, it would be unrealistic to have everything because there is that much diversity in the world. It just should be a goal to cram as much character options in as possible, not limit to the basics because it's easier that way.

I'm not sure sexual preference needs to be an identifier, afterall it isn't in real life. When you walk into a room do you know who is gay/straight/bi and would you want everyone to treat you such a way without ever having actually spoken to you before?

Magic.

 

Sol's Detect Sexuality

Melf's Greater Gaydar

The further I read in this forum I wish there only could be male character to make everyone offended so that most of them leave. Yeah I know harsh but seriously sometime we should draw a line and think about it first. Not thinking about what you would like but thinking about budget, time and effort you actually had to put in there to make it fit with the world and so on...

Representation should be a big deal, especially in gaming which is predominatly white/male/heterosexual/cisgendered.

 

I would imagine you could allow for transgender/LGBT roleplay by giving a few variations on the same dialogue based on not just a persons sex, but their gender and how they want people to respond to them, i.e.

 

1) Biologically male, male gendered, responded to as a male.

2) Biologically female, female gendered, responded to as a female.

3) Biologically male, androgynous gendered, responded to as either or ambiguously.

4) Biologically female, androgynous gendered, responded to as either or ambiguously.

5) Biologically female, male gendered, responded to as a male.

6) Biologically male, female gendered, responded to as a female.

 

I'm not sure sexual preference needs to be an identifier, afterall it isn't in real life. When you walk into a room do you know who is gay/straight/bi and would you want everyone to treat you such a way without ever having actually spoken to you before?

So basically the only dialog choice they need to include is to have characters from a culture of Transgender understanding ask "So what's your prefered pronoun?" and then adjust the pronouns that NPC uses accordingly. Of course it would be written from the perspective of the culture. Native Americans have had an understanding of transgenderism for a while.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit

Native Americans have had an understanding of transgenderism for a while.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Two-Spirit

 

 

I love learning.

The more options in an RPG, the more playability and characters a player can have

 

If the game does not respond or react to these options in any particular way and thus enhance the gameplay, their inclusion is redundant and you might aswell just imagine these things. And I am quite sure this game will not be able to respond to every whim the players might have (nor should it).

Edited September 20, 201213 yr by Undecaf

The more options in an RPG, the more playability and characters a player can have

 

If the game does not respond or react to these options in any particular way and thus enhance the gameplay, their inclusion is redundant and you might aswell just imagine these things. And I am quite sure this game will not be able to respond to every whim the players might have.

Exactly. The world should react to your race, actions and also choices. If that is not a given and it will be really difficult to implement such a thing in a game its absolutely meaningless. It would be as if yourself just think that you are this "special" character but no one else knows.

Representation should be a big deal, especially in gaming which is predominatly white/male/heterosexual/cisgendered.

The world is predominantly heterosexual/"cisgendered".

I made almost this exact same thread on day one when the forums were not working and it was locked. WTH mods?

 

http://forums.obsidi...s/#entry1184664

Edited September 20, 201213 yr by oldmanpaco

A role playing game *telling* anyone to play a role kind of defeats the purpose. You're supposed to choose your own. Otherwise it's not roleplaying.

 

That's true, but that still doesn't answer the question of how resources should be divided in the project to try and include a transgender option. Unless you want the world to react to your player's transgender status (which would be tough to know unless they checked under the hood) what's the difference between a player picking an option on the character creation screen and just using their imagination and declaring, "My character was born a man, but chooses to live as a woman" and then picking the outward appearance appropriate for their choice?

The difference is developers have to spend time and money on putting that option into the character screen that could be put elsewhere. This is a game, not a statement on politically correctness. If you can choose trans, then why not bi, why not gay, etc. It opens the floodgates to every group of people having an option at the character screen and it changes nothing. You can't please everyone and it's foolish to try.

From what I understand regarding Transgendered people in society, other persons (such as myself) will simply react to them based on how they present themselves.

 

So a woman that can pass herself off as a man because she wants to live like that, would most likely be reffered to as "He". A man dressing as a woman convicingly would be reffered to as "She". Androgynous? People would just call out what they see... so some might say Man/He, and others Woman/She.

 

Realistically, I don't see why the game needs to cater to your lifestyle choice explicitly. In previous Bioware games, you could write your own biography for your character. Why not pick the race and sex you feel you identify best with/are most comfortable with and simply write a bio that fits the character you want to play and can relate to? I'm sure Obsidian can put in a Bio field for people to edit as they see fit.

 

Then the game world AI population would simply react to what they "See", just like in real society.

 

On another, slightly more negative, note. People still occasionally freak out at Sex or Homosexuallity in games. Transgenderism won't be appearing for a while.

My reaction was negative on reading the first post. I then read the whole thread. I've been trying to think of why my initial response was negative. I guess we could say that some folks hate the idea of transgender issues in an RPG because they can't countenance transgenders as human beings in the first place, but that's not true of me and I don't think it's the impetus behind most of the negative, even snarky responses. So why is it an issue?

 

I'm going out on a limb, but I'm not trying to win an argument and I'm not trying to insult anyone. I'm just giving my genuine assessment. Let's say I go to a bookstore and pick up a book. On reading the back, I see that the story revolves around how a young boy feels trapped inside his body and identifies with the female form. The story details the events of his life as he goes through the process of changing his sex. I wouldn't be interested in the book. It might be a good book. If I forced myself to start it, I might find it engrossing and compelling and it might lead me to a better understanding of transgenders. ...But I'm only allotted so much time on the Earth and I have the right to pursue my interests. I'm not saying that I hate transgenders or think they shouldn't have an outlet to express themselves, but I am a consumer and I will consume the things that appeal to me. Since I'm not transgender, do not know anyone who is openly transgender, and have no real interest in transgender issues, a story that deals with such things won't have any appeal to me. I won't hate it, but I don't buy things based on what I don't hate. I buy things based on what I like or desire.

 

It's not like I would toss out a game for any reference to transgender, but I want an immersive world that entertains my interests. If I read the back of the Project Eternity 'book' and see that it delves too much into lifestyles and interests that I don't share, then I'm not going to buy the book. If I play the game and some of these issues are addressed in an intelligent and mature manner (that is not to say didactic and morally intrusive) then it wouldn't bother me at all. So, if Obsidz can provide that experience, awesome. I'm just afraid of the game being held captive to a huge swath of special interests.

 

As for small things, such as traits at the beginning and special dialogue that only comes up if you have certain characteristics, I don't mind that at all. If the design team implements something that players can choose at the beginning that caters to the transgender crowd but does not later intrude on my experience, I'm down with that, but how much time, money, and talent will that entail? The point is, my negative response wasn't born of hatred or bigotry any more than if I read a review of 'My Pretty Pony.' I have nothing against it on its face, but I'm not spending my money on or taking my time with it. ...And, like all consumers, I'm something of a selfish bore when it comes to the nitty gritty. I don't want the design team to spend resources on the things I don't desire when there are so many things I do want to see in the game.

The difference is developers have to spend time and money on putting that option into the character screen that could be put elsewhere. This is a game, not a statement on politically correctness. If you can choose trans, then why not bi, why not gay, etc. It opens the floodgates to every group of people having an option at the character screen and it changes nothing. You can't please everyone and it's foolish to try.

 

Can we drop the Political Correctness argument? I don't want different people groups thrown in just to fill up some PC meter, and I'm pretty sure that nobody else does either.

 

What I think we need to actually discuss in these threads isn't whether or not LGBT/whatever should be included in the game, but rather how they should be included in the game. Ultimately it will be up to Obsidian if they include these themes or not. So all this pointless bickering and argument is not doing any good. I want Obsidian, as the developer of the game, to tell the story that they want to. I also want it to be a good story, so if they do decide to include transgender characters, they should have an idea of what pitfalls to avoid. That's what we should be discussing. That's what could actually help the developers.

It's not like you get to see your character's junk or anything so as long as the character creator is complex enough you can probably just create an avatar that from the outside looks like it might be transgender. Hell I can't remember the last time in any videogame where some NPC actually talked about my character's gender. There's the romance content sure but nobody referred to my charater as "him", "her" or otherwise even really discussed my character's gender. So with that said I really don't see the issue here or why Obsidian should detract resources from other game contet like quests and such to do this.

The difference is developers have to spend time and money on putting that option into the character screen that could be put elsewhere. This is a game, not a statement on politically correctness. If you can choose trans, then why not bi, why not gay, etc. It opens the floodgates to every group of people having an option at the character screen and it changes nothing. You can't please everyone and it's foolish to try.

 

Can we drop the Political Correctness argument? I don't want different people groups thrown in just to fill up some PC meter, and I'm pretty sure that nobody else does either.

 

What I think we need to actually discuss in these threads isn't whether or not LGBT/whatever should be included in the game, but rather how they should be included in the game. Ultimately it will be up to Obsidian if they include these themes or not. So all this pointless bickering and argument is not doing any good. I want Obsidian, as the developer of the game, to tell the story that they want to. I also want it to be a good story, so if they do decide to include transgender characters, they should have an idea of what pitfalls to avoid. That's what we should be discussing. That's what could actually help the developers.

 

So you want a good story for your transgender character? Exactly this stuff costs much money. to integrate the race truly in the story or the world itself. The question should not even exist in the first place.

 

You can not satisfy everyone, every fetish, every sexual orientation. And that is why these threads are total pointless. Why not rather talk about stuff that is important to make it a good game not that you feel is important for you.

Edited September 20, 201213 yr by Darji

Can we drop the Political Correctness argument? I don't want different people groups thrown in just to fill up some PC meter, and I'm pretty sure that nobody else does either.

 

Sure, nobody wants to have everything, yet everybody wants to have at least their own way. Catch 22. Just leave it out and everyone concerned about this will be equally disappointed. Fair play.

Not to metion that trying to create companions or romances to represent all the possible genders and preferences is the surest and safest way to ensure that every person that ever plays the game gets to feel disturbed....no thanks, I'll pass.

Why not rather talk about stuff that is important to make it a good game not that you feel is important for you.

I ask the same of you.

 

Everyone has a different opinion on what's important to their interests in seeing it be a good game. Trying to tell others that their subject isn't worth talking about seems contradictory. Because you're here talking about it. Clearly it is an important subject to the people involved, yourself included.