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Seeing as adding enough role playing opportunities for every variation on the whole scale would be quite a lot of work, perhaps you guys can see why some of us are a bit sceptical of this? As sorry as i am to say it, perhaps it would be better to lobby for another kickstarter where transgender is a part of the original focus of that particular project? As it is, i honestly don't want obs to focus on anything other than making a great old school game, since the future of these type of games kind of hangs in the balance atm.

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Unless the game reflects this transgender choice in some way it's just useless LARPing. Bethesda Softworks forums are that way.

 

That doesn't start or stop with sexuality/gender-topics though.

I know but it bears repeating every time the silly advice "just role play it in your head" comes up. It's pure cancer.

 

I guess that would come down to personal opinion and taste. Some people want a fleshed out PC, somewhat limiting the role playing potential - but at the same time offering a rich in-game experience -, others want a clean sheet opening up for limitless role playing, at the cost of some times stumbling upon impossible encounters where none of the alternatives offered by the game really is "in character" for the role you have created.

 

I like the first one better - and I expect you do too. I still tend to elaborate on the information the game provides me with though.

Edited by Amused
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Not what the op had in mind, but I'll add I'd like if female and male armor and clothing didn't "change sex" when transferred from one character to another.

 

Found this particularly annoying in Elder Scrolls games where I often play a female. Kill someone for their pants and armor, like women do,

only to find the pants have morphed into another damn dress and the plate now has open cleavage down to navel. :(

So sadly true...

 

If you pick up an armor designed for a woman (in the most chainmail bikini stereotype), it should remain the same when being weared by a man. And the other way around too.

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Unless the game reflects this transgender choice in some way it's just useless LARPing. Bethesda Softworks forums are that way.

 

That doesn't start or stop with sexuality/gender-topics though.

I know but it bears repeating every time the silly advice "just role play it in your head" comes up. It's pure cancer.

 

I guess that woul com down to personal opinion. Some people want a fleshed out PC, somewhat limiting the role playing potential - but at the same time offering a rich in-game experience -, others want a clean sheet opening up for limitless role playing, at the cost of some times stumbling upon impossible encounters where none of the alternatives offered by the game really is "in character" for the role you have created.

 

I like the first one better - and I expect you do too. I still tend to elaborate on the information the game provides me with though.

 

I have your clean sheet right here:

 

notepad.exe

 

Think of the rich role playing possibilities with literary nothing to limit one but one's own imagination (that might be a bit of a hurdle to clear for some people, I admit).

Say no to popamole!

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Unless the game reflects this transgender choice in some way it's just useless LARPing. Bethesda Softworks forums are that way.

 

I don't get it, it's just useless Live Action Role Playing? Care to elaborate,what do you mean?

It's shorthand for the brand of "role playing" that infests Oblivion and other games of its ilk - saying it does not matter that the game does not support your choices in any meaningful way, you can do it yourself in your head (without any response from the game environment, mind you) and it is just as good. Like you can "play" town guard in Oblivion by killing one for his armour (muhahaha) and than roam the roads and kill bandits, while taking periodic breaks to report to your superiors (who do not recognize you as a guard but that never mattered to these people)

DO. NOT. DO. THIS.

 

Well I agree that in general Oblivion et al. are a bit of a mockery of RPGs, I don't really go for that whole sandbox experience either. But there the problem is that it messes up the narrative pretty badly. As long as the narrative doesn't suffer though I don't see the problem. As I said you can't expect the game to acknowledge everything about your character; so I'm totally fine with filling in the blanks myself, that's pretty much a definition of roleplaying in my mind..

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Unless the game reflects this transgender choice in some way it's just useless LARPing. Bethesda Softworks forums are that way.

 

That doesn't start or stop with sexuality/gender-topics though.

I know but it bears repeating every time the silly advice "just role play it in your head" comes up. It's pure cancer.

 

I guess that woul com down to personal opinion. Some people want a fleshed out PC, somewhat limiting the role playing potential - but at the same time offering a rich in-game experience -, others want a clean sheet opening up for limitless role playing, at the cost of some times stumbling upon impossible encounters where none of the alternatives offered by the game really is "in character" for the role you have created.

 

I like the first one better - and I expect you do too. I still tend to elaborate on the information the game provides me with though.

 

I have your clean sheet right here:

 

notepad.exe

 

Think of the rich role playing possibilities with literary nothing to limit one but one's own imagination (that might be a bit of a hurdle to clear for some people, I admit).

 

Some might enjoy that. Most people probably want something that is not of their own making to interact with though. Something along the lines of a video game world maybe?:)

Edited by Amused
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it bears repeating every time the silly advice "just role play it in your head" comes up. It's pure cancer.

 

It's shorthand for the brand of "role playing" that infests Oblivion and other games of its ilk - saying it does not matter that the game does not support your choices in any meaningful way, you can do it yourself in your head (without any response from the game environment, mind you) and it is just as good. Like you can "play" town guard in Oblivion by killing one for his armour (muhahaha) and than roam the roads and kill bandits, while taking periodic breaks to report to your superiors (who do not recognize you as a guard but that never mattered to these people)

DO. NOT. DO. THIS.

Since when did we ask for a game that doesn't reflect our choices? You are reading a lot of things into people's posts. Personally, I have never played Oblivion at all.

 

I would simply think that a game that includes male and female genders could implicitly include transgender, unless there are specifically transgendered things to which NPCs should react. Are there? If so, what would they be? I mean, it's obvious that city guards should react to you as a city guard if you really are one, but if you identify as a certain gender and try to look like a person of that gender, are there certain reactions you expect from NPCs? I'm sorry, but since I'm not transgendered I would need to have this spelled out for me.

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i dont think the game needs to make a big fuss about every little detail of a character, especially if that detail is not noticeable at a glance. that doesnt stop you from roleplaying the way you want

 

if youre a shemale irl but look deceptively like a real woman people are going to react to you like to a woman

 

maybe just let people write their own bio for their character like infinity games had, that should be enough

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it bears repeating every time the silly advice "just role play it in your head" comes up. It's pure cancer.

 

It's shorthand for the brand of "role playing" that infests Oblivion and other games of its ilk - saying it does not matter that the game does not support your choices in any meaningful way, you can do it yourself in your head (without any response from the game environment, mind you) and it is just as good. Like you can "play" town guard in Oblivion by killing one for his armour (muhahaha) and than roam the roads and kill bandits, while taking periodic breaks to report to your superiors (who do not recognize you as a guard but that never mattered to these people)

DO. NOT. DO. THIS.

Since when did we ask for a game that doesn't reflect our choices? You are reading a lot of things into people's posts. Personally, I have never played Oblivion at all.

 

I would simply think that a game that includes male and female genders could implicitly include transgender, unless there are specifically transgendered things to which NPCs should react. Are there? If so, what would they be? I mean, it's obvious that city guards should react to you as a city guard if you really are one, but if you identify as a certain gender and try to look like a person of that gender, are there certain reactions you expect from NPCs? I'm sorry, but since I'm not transgendered I would need to have this spelled out for me.

I was just reacting to the idea that all you need for a transgeneder character in a game is YOUR IMAGINATION, which I see as a part of a poisonous trend otherwise not related to any gender identity issue. Other than that I have no stake in the debate.

Say no to popamole!

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I have no problem with such an option on a moral basis, but I can't imagine any way a discrepancy between your character's physical gender and psychological gender identity would ever even come up. If that means shoehorning in some really awkward dialogue asking "By the way, are you comfortable in your skin?" or an NPC that's largely defined by their transgendered status, then I'd rather it not happen.

 

I understand your frustration at not being included, but then, you're a very tiny minority of the population. It would sadly stretch my suspicion of disbelief if, given the limited population of companions, you somehow happened to end up with one of each of a straight/gay/bi/lesbian/transgendered/intersex character.

 

If an Obsidian writer has a brilliant idea for incorporating one such character into the narrative without it feeling out of place, then of course I'm fine with it. Otherwise...all inclusiveness isn't really feasible.

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Unless the game reflects this transgender choice in some way it's just useless LARPing. Bethesda Softworks forums are that way.

 

That doesn't start or stop with sexuality/gender-topics though.

I know but it bears repeating every time the silly advice "just role play it in your head" comes up. It's pure cancer.

 

I guess that woul com down to personal opinion. Some people want a fleshed out PC, somewhat limiting the role playing potential - but at the same time offering a rich in-game experience -, others want a clean sheet opening up for limitless role playing, at the cost of some times stumbling upon impossible encounters where none of the alternatives offered by the game really is "in character" for the role you have created.

 

I like the first one better - and I expect you do too. I still tend to elaborate on the information the game provides me with though.

 

I have your clean sheet right here:

 

notepad.exe

 

Think of the rich role playing possibilities with literary nothing to limit one but one's own imagination (that might be a bit of a hurdle to clear for some people, I admit).

 

Some might enjoy that. Most people probably want something that is not of their own making to interact with though. Something along the lines of a video game world maybe? :)

But they are not interacting in any meaningful way. If I am going to creepily stalk a female NPC across town and then lock her in her own house I can certainly pretend that she is my girlfriend, but it does not matter in the game unless some other part of it acknowledges this fact. And it won't. cRPGs should have a robust system that tries to take into account the most variables possible, not a barebones one that depends on you to do most of the work while ignoring your actions completely. That's just lazy design.

Say no to popamole!

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Honestly, the rationale that "there has to be a transgender option or I can't relate to my PC!" is just plainly stupid. I am allergic to dust and the condition (used to) place heavy burden on my everyday life. Thus, I can't feel fully connected to my PC unless there is an option for him being allergic! This DEFINETELY needs to be represented in game, or Obsidian will discriminate against people with allergy!

 

Now, I would like for all the LGBT folks on this forums (great you are here, I have nothing against you as a people) to rethink, why they are the only minority that wants to bend the game to "represent" them, while other minority groups - people with illness, disabilities, various kind of facial and/or body features etc. - can live without it GLADLY. And ask yourself, why your group is so often viewed as unreasonably demanding.

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I was just reacting to the idea that all you need for a transgeneder character in a game is YOUR IMAGINATION, which I see as a part of a poisonous trend otherwise not related to any gender identity issue. Other than that I have no stake in the debate.

It's not necessarily all you need! I think we'd want more feedback on the topic from actual transgendered people before we could say one way or the other. It just seemed to me that it would not be the kind of thing to which the game would need to react to preserve realism and not break immersion, but I'm open to correction.

 

Honestly, I can see how what you describe would be a poisonous trend if it relieves the developers of all responsibility for making the game react to your choices. On the other hand, it's nice for a game to leave itself open to several possible interpretations without needlessly hemming in a person's imagination.

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Honestly, the rationale that "there has to be a transgender option or I can't relate to my PC!" is just plainly stupid. I am allergic to dust and the condition (used to) place heavy burden on my everyday life. Thus, I can't feel fully connected to my PC unless there is an option for him being allergic! This DEFINETELY needs to be represented in game, or Obsidian will discriminate against people with allergy!

 

Now, I would like for all the LGBT folks on this forums (great you are here, I have nothing against you as a people) to rethink, why they are the only minority that wants to bend the game to "represent" them, while other minority groups - people with illness, disabilities, various kind of facial and/or body features etc. - can live without it GLADLY. And ask yourself, why your group is so often viewed as unreasonably demanding.

 

Actually they aren't the only group, I am a straight male and I support this idea in the interest of equality. Its not like you will even notice it if you don't want to but it clearly will make a difference to people so how will it hurt or change your gaming experience. Please respond, by allowing this character choice how will it effect your RPG experience?

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Unless the game reflects this transgender choice in some way it's just useless LARPing. Bethesda Softworks forums are that way.

 

That doesn't start or stop with sexuality/gender-topics though.

I know but it bears repeating every time the silly advice "just role play it in your head" comes up. It's pure cancer.

 

I guess that woul com down to personal opinion. Some people want a fleshed out PC, somewhat limiting the role playing potential - but at the same time offering a rich in-game experience -, others want a clean sheet opening up for limitless role playing, at the cost of some times stumbling upon impossible encounters where none of the alternatives offered by the game really is "in character" for the role you have created.

 

I like the first one better - and I expect you do too. I still tend to elaborate on the information the game provides me with though.

 

I have your clean sheet right here:

 

notepad.exe

 

Think of the rich role playing possibilities with literary nothing to limit one but one's own imagination (that might be a bit of a hurdle to clear for some people, I admit).

 

Some might enjoy that. Most people probably want something that is not of their own making to interact with though. Something along the lines of a video game world maybe? :)

But they are not interacting in any meaningful way. If I am going to creepily stalk a female NPC across town and then lock her in her own house I can certainly pretend that she is my girlfriend, but it does not matter in the game unless some other part of it acknowledges this fact. And it won't. cRPGs should have a robust system that tries to take into account the most variables possible, not a barebones one that depends on you to do most of the work while ignoring your actions completely. That's just lazy design.

 

I both agree and disagree. Given the example you lay out here, I agree completely. It doesn't make sense, and the game does not offer you any potential for interacting with it along those lines. But I always tend to add some info to the characters i play that is not offered by the game. In Fallout 2 I might give the protagonist racist tendencies based on him never before having encountered anyone not like him. The game does not give me any information supporting such a choice, but based on this choice I could play a character that kills any ghoul or Super-Mutant on sight.

 

Similar examples could easily be made for a transgendered person.

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Actually they aren't the only group, I am a straight male and I support this idea in the interest of equality. Its not like you will even notice it if you don't want to but it clearly will make a difference to people so how will it hurt or change your gaming experience. Please respond, by allowing this character choice how will it effect your RPG experience?

 

I am not arguing that it would affect my experience. I put an argument that in spite of this reasoning there are more minority groups that PC should be optionally part of, only those groups are not as demanding as LGBT, despite being probably more numerous (i am pretty sure there are more allergic people nowadays than transgender).

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Unless the game reflects this transgender choice in some way it's just useless LARPing. Bethesda Softworks forums are that way.

 

That doesn't start or stop with sexuality/gender-topics though.

I know but it bears repeating every time the silly advice "just role play it in your head" comes up. It's pure cancer.

 

I guess that woul com down to personal opinion. Some people want a fleshed out PC, somewhat limiting the role playing potential - but at the same time offering a rich in-game experience -, others want a clean sheet opening up for limitless role playing, at the cost of some times stumbling upon impossible encounters where none of the alternatives offered by the game really is "in character" for the role you have created.

 

I like the first one better - and I expect you do too. I still tend to elaborate on the information the game provides me with though.

 

I have your clean sheet right here:

 

notepad.exe

 

Think of the rich role playing possibilities with literary nothing to limit one but one's own imagination (that might be a bit of a hurdle to clear for some people, I admit).

 

Some might enjoy that. Most people probably want something that is not of their own making to interact with though. Something along the lines of a video game world maybe? :)

But they are not interacting in any meaningful way. If I am going to creepily stalk a female NPC across town and then lock her in her own house I can certainly pretend that she is my girlfriend, but it does not matter in the game unless some other part of it acknowledges this fact. And it won't. cRPGs should have a robust system that tries to take into account the most variables possible, not a barebones one that depends on you to do most of the work while ignoring your actions completely. That's just lazy design.

 

I both agree and disagree. Given the example you lay out here, I agree completely. It doesn't make sense, and the game does not offer you any potential for interacting with it along those lines. But I always tend to add some info to the characters i play that is not offered by the game. In Fallout 2 I might give the protagonist racist tendencies based on him never before having encountered anyone not like him. The game does not give me any information supporting such a choice, but based on this choice I could play a character that kills any ghoul or Super-Mutant on sight.

 

Similar examples could easily be made for a transgendered person.

I could be wrong but Falout IIRC gives you dialog options to voice your opinions of ghouls/supermutants. And you can definitely screw them over by your actions instead of just some random killing spree - see Vault City.

Say no to popamole!

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Now, I would like for all the LGBT folks on this forums (great you are here, I have nothing against you as a people) to rethink, why they are the only minority that wants to bend the game to "represent" them,

But they aren't. People have been clamoring for nonwhite/European and female player characters for years.

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Actually they aren't the only group, I am a straight male and I support this idea in the interest of equality. Its not like you will even notice it if you don't want to but it clearly will make a difference to people so how will it hurt or change your gaming experience. Please respond, by allowing this character choice how will it effect your RPG experience?

 

I am not arguing that it would affect my experience. I put an argument that in spite of this reasoning there are more minority groups that PC should be optionally part of, only those groups are not as demanding as LGBT, despite being probably more numerous (i am pretty sure there are more allergic people nowadays than transgender).

 

You'd be right about that. Approximate numbers put 0.3% of americans are transgender.

The area between the balls and the butt is a hotbed of terrorist activity.

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Unless the game reflects this transgender choice in some way it's just useless LARPing. Bethesda Softworks forums are that way.

 

That doesn't start or stop with sexuality/gender-topics though.

I know but it bears repeating every time the silly advice "just role play it in your head" comes up. It's pure cancer.

 

I guess that woul com down to personal opinion. Some people want a fleshed out PC, somewhat limiting the role playing potential - but at the same time offering a rich in-game experience -, others want a clean sheet opening up for limitless role playing, at the cost of some times stumbling upon impossible encounters where none of the alternatives offered by the game really is "in character" for the role you have created.

 

I like the first one better - and I expect you do too. I still tend to elaborate on the information the game provides me with though.

 

I have your clean sheet right here:

 

notepad.exe

 

Think of the rich role playing possibilities with literary nothing to limit one but one's own imagination (that might be a bit of a hurdle to clear for some people, I admit).

 

Some might enjoy that. Most people probably want something that is not of their own making to interact with though. Something along the lines of a video game world maybe? :)

But they are not interacting in any meaningful way. If I am going to creepily stalk a female NPC across town and then lock her in her own house I can certainly pretend that she is my girlfriend, but it does not matter in the game unless some other part of it acknowledges this fact. And it won't. cRPGs should have a robust system that tries to take into account the most variables possible, not a barebones one that depends on you to do most of the work while ignoring your actions completely. That's just lazy design.

 

I both agree and disagree. Given the example you lay out here, I agree completely. It doesn't make sense, and the game does not offer you any potential for interacting with it along those lines. But I always tend to add some info to the characters i play that is not offered by the game. In Fallout 2 I might give the protagonist racist tendencies based on him never before having encountered anyone not like him. The game does not give me any information supporting such a choice, but based on this choice I could play a character that kills any ghoul or Super-Mutant on sight.

 

Similar examples could easily be made for a transgendered person.

I could be wrong but Falout IIRC gives you dialog options to voice your opinions of ghouls/supermutants. And you can definitely screw them over by your actions instead of just some random killing spree - see Vault City.

 

That's not really the point though, is it? Had this not been a part of the game design I would still have been able to play such a character without breaking Immersion the way your example would.

 

I could play someone hating females too. I could refuse talking to females, and I could be an **** to anyone I was forced to talk to. The game does not give me this character trait - but it wouldn't be any less part of my role playing experience throughout the game.

 

 

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Why not permit it to be a perk or feat? "Was Once Male/Female" or "Wants to Be Male/Female". Not much work at all. A few new dialogue options and you're there.

 

There are several ways to successfully implement a feature like this without alienating other gamers. My first suggestion would be to consider making an Elf like race have no specific gender. If it's left ambiguous, it is much easier for transgender players to identify with these characters. Other options could include elemental type creatures, such as stone golems. It is a fair compromise for those of us who are just trying to find an easy outlet to connect with characters in a fantasy universe.

 

When I read the first part of your post, I thought it might be very hard to implement a "transgender option" into a game without a huge amount of work. But in my opinion, this is a fair proposal, that can be accomplished rather easy. I like it!

"This is what most people do not understand about Colbert and Silverman. They only mock fictional celebrities, celebrities who destroy their selfhood to unify with the wants of the people, celebrities who are transfixed by the evil hungers of the public. Feed us a Gomorrah built up of luminous dreams, we beg. Here it is, they say, and it looks like your steaming brains."

 

" If you've read Hart's Hope, Neveryona, Infinity Concerto, Tales of the Flat Earth, you've pretty much played Dragon Age."

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I think straight/gay options are enough. The game really only has to cover sexual orientations and not every single known fetish or gender-based alternative concept - it is just not possible without spending enourmous amounts of resources.

 

But that does not mean that it won't be in the game at some point or another. The modding community is rather passionate and maybe they will add such a feature to the game after it is released (if there is mod support at least). Maybe there is even a transgender mod for Skyrim, I am not sure - but if there is, then you can be pretty sure that there will be one for this game also. :)

:closed:

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You'd be right about that. Approximate numbers put 0.3% of americans are transgender.

Is the general consensus that these studies likely involve participants under reporting? And if so, how do they account for that?

 

Either way, I'd be shocked if it was more than 1%.

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