Will there be a transgender option?

[Luckmann]

I have a difficult time identifying with my in-game avatars when there is no option for transgender.

 

Use your imagination. I'm fairly certain there won't be hard statements in the game that you are or are not what you think you are regarding this.

 

This brings up an interesting point for me. Are role-playing games for projecting your own persona, essentially playing yourself in a game, or are they for assuming other roles, basically play acting? I know the answer is personal and there is no right or wrong way to satisfy it, but for myself I prefer to assume personas and characters that aren't just projections of my own ego and id, that's usually half the fun for me.

They are for assuming other roles, "play acting", as it were. Playing yourself defeats the point of roleplaying games. I play myself every day.

[The Sharmat]

This brings up an interesting point for me. Are role-playing games for projecting your own persona, essentially playing yourself in a game, or are they for assuming other roles, basically play acting? I know the answer is personal and there is no right or wrong way to satisfy it,

All of the above. And they aren't mutually exclusive. I do multiple playthroughs of good RPGs, and while I like to RP as different characters, usually one of them amounts to "what would I do if I was in this position."

[The Sharmat]

as the physicallity of transgender is self induced where physicality of asexual is state of being.

This is not supported by science. As I recall there is evidence supporting epigenetic influence on each during natal development.

Edited September 20, 2012 by The Sharmat

[Entropious]

Ladies and gentlemen, I shall limit myself to a single sentence.

 

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

 

Thank you for your time.

[TwinkieGorilla]

That would actually be a blood feast.

 

And why is that?

[Ieo]

For those of us in the LGBT community, it's incredibly easy to feel very (1) misrepresented in video games. I don't want this to be another one of those threads where people whine about being discriminated against, but I have a difficult time identifying with my in-game avatars when there is no option for transgender. I am what I am, and it's unfortunate that I struggle to find other outlets to express myself. (2) I have always had a strong preference for RPGs due to the fact that I can always be something in virtual reality that I can never be in real life. I know that it's a challenging issue when there are many who are very uncomfortable with LGBT issues bleeding over into the gaming community, but it's 2012. (3) We need to move past certain hurdles that prevent a large group of players from feeling connected to the rest of the community. (4) As a transgender woman, I would definitely appreciate the ability to create a character in this game that would reflect who I am in real life.

 

There are several ways to successfully implement a feature like this without alienating other gamers. My first suggestion would be to consider making an Elf like race have no specific gender. If it's left ambiguous, it is much easier for transgender players to identify with these characters. Other options could include elemental type creatures, such as stone golems. It is a fair compromise for those of us who are just trying to find an easy outlet to connect with characters in a fantasy universe.

 

(1) Misrepresented or underrepresented--given how LGBT was treated in the Fallout series, I think we have less to worry about with Obsidian in terms of the misrepresented. Underrepresented is another thing entirely.

 

(2) This statement seems to contradict the statement prior to it: You have a difficult time 'being yourself' as your avatar. But you prefer RPGs precisely because you can be something else. I have trouble understanding this, and if I'm not misinterpreting what you actually wrote, then I suggest you think carefully about this.

 

(3) Which community are you talking about---the larger society or a niche gaming community? Because that's what this is--a niche gaming community ('very' niche, given that this can't even be funded except by Kickstarter). You start your post by saying you have a problem connecting to your avatar, never mind the contradiction in #2, but this does not automatically translate to connecting to the gaming community and especially not society at large: Plenty of gamers play and 'connect' (or 'own') to avatars that are very different from themselves, playing female or male or odd races. And then--

 

(4) I honestly do not understand this (besides conflicting with #2). You are M2F transgender. You identify as female. Why exactly is it hard to play an avatar representing what you actually believe and want yourself to be? It seems to me that you want to bring your personal discomforts into the game and not the actual identity/preference (latter for LGB).

 

"Who" are you? Who is anyone? I would like to think the measure of a human being is in the choices she makes and not merely appearance, or what she wants to be, or what she believes she is. Then that becomes, "what" are you?

 

 

Side comments: I spotted a post somewhere about cross-dressing. Transgender is not the same thing as cross-dressing, though the two are often conflated and are, for all intents and purposes, impossible to distinguish from the public point of view. Allowing certain armours/outfits to be very gender neutral would be great, though. Obsidian is still looking into avatar creation itself, so it may be possible to choose a body build that is more on the ambiguous side; also, considering the 'odd' races, I'm sure Obsidian will be creative about it--what if there's a race with three sexes?

Edited September 20, 2012 by Ieo

[nikolokolus]

One last thought.

 

What is this obsession with gender and sexuality in RPGs? Is adding a transgender option or the ability to boink all of your companions really going to enhance the story? If the devs spent a ton of time focused on making sure that every creed, religion and proclivity is included in the game, wouldn't that just be time spent away from polishing the story and the actual gameplay? I mean this is going to be a game after all right?

[Pidesco]

The only way this question makes sense is whether Project Eternity has a polymorph spell. Otherwise, it's meaningless.

[Ieo]

One last thought.

 

What is this obsession with gender and sexuality in RPGs? Is adding a transgender option or the ability to boink all of your companions really going to enhance the story? If the devs spent a ton of time focused on making sure that every creed, religion and proclivity is included in the game, wouldn't that just be time spent away from polishing the story and the actual gameplay? I mean this is going to be a game after all right?

 

It's a matter of 'identity', not libido. Although those things naturally occur together most of the time, I think.

 

I believe many aspects of the above you listed can be incorporated well in a fictional setting. But getting down to the NPC interactions becomes very granular and complex if we're after a sort of realism, perhaps well beyond what is feasible in the programming (ROI). That is up to Obsidian.

 

For example, considering LGBT, LGB people easily fit in and their proclivities are private--it would only come up in highly private situations limited to a few NPCs at most. But transgender is different. If someone asked to be represented as 'publicly' transgender (obvious or suspicious to observers), then that immediately throws a wrench in NPC interaction design, unless the world itself is designed to not care--and then some may still complain that there should be a reaction. If there is realistic representation there, then that would mean awkwardness and sometimes outright hostility; I can't imagine why anyone would want this in a game they're role-playing.

[Longknife]

One last thought.

 

What is this obsession with gender and sexuality in RPGs?

 

It makes sense.

 

If a lesbian plays a game and is forced to only flirt with men, it's kinda awkward for them. Same for gay men being told to flirt with women, same for a bisexual who can't hit on their same gender. It's simply the game telling them to be something they're not.

 

But for transgender people, you can effectively be transgender as long as you can choose your gender and choose your sexual orientation. A special tag that makes sure everyone knows your character used to be the other gender, while I can understand the immersion appeal, doesn't have a PRACTICAL use....Unless of course you're WANTING your character to be discriminated against and hated on for being part of a sub-group that sadly gets a discriminated against and hated on a lot, which....I dunno why you'd want that.

 

 

This request is basically the same as if someone were to request support for asexuals, AKA, the rare few who feel no sexual attraction to either gender. If an asexual made that request? "Just turn down everyone that hits on you." BAM, problem solved. No need for a special asexual tag when you can turn people down at will.

 

Sexual orientation and the two genders make sense, but anything like being transgender, pansexual vs. bisexual or asexuality? Those can easily be done in a practical sense already....

[-O-]

Some people should probably fund a game all by themselves to get everything they dream of. Point of Project Eternity is not in fulfilling sexual fantasies of every single human being. At least I hope so.

 

Now Kickstarting Project Empathy - A Next-Gen Modern Party-Based RPG (and we DO mean "party"!)

 

Your party will consist of one thousand characters of every race, gender, religion, sexual preference, height, weight, psychosis, smell, taste and shoe size!

 

Will I be able to ****/romance all of them at the same time?

[Lucas]

One last thought.

 

What is this obsession with gender and sexuality in RPGs?

[TwinkieGorilla]

Will I be able to ****/romance all of them at the same time?

 

Yes. "Romance" will be the only game mechanic.

[nikolokolus]

One last thought.

 

What is this obsession with gender and sexuality in RPGs? Is adding a transgender option or the ability to boink all of your companions really going to enhance the story? If the devs spent a ton of time focused on making sure that every creed, religion and proclivity is included in the game, wouldn't that just be time spent away from polishing the story and the actual gameplay? I mean this is going to be a game after all right?

 

It's a matter of 'identity', not libido. Although those things naturally occur together most of the time, I think.

 

I believe many aspects of the above you listed can be incorporated well in a fictional setting. But getting down to the NPC interactions becomes very granular and complex if we're after a sort of realism, perhaps well beyond what is feasible in the programming (ROI). That is up to Obsidian.

 

For example, considering LGBT, LGB people easily fit in and their proclivities are private--it would only come up in highly private situations limited to a few NPCs at most. But transgender is different. If someone asked to be represented as 'publicly' transgender (obvious or suspicious to observers), then that immediately throws a wrench in NPC interaction design, unless the world itself is designed to not care--and then some may still complain that there should be a reaction. If there is realistic representation there, then that would mean awkwardness and sometimes outright hostility; I can't imagine why anyone would want this in a game they're role-playing.

 

I guess that's sort of my point. I couldn't give a damn if somebody is gay, bi or transgender (and living Portland, OR I know or am friends with some of these people) but I'm mainly concerned about the practicality of implementing all of these design decisions and the amount of branching dialogue that would need to be created in order to integrate this stuff in a meaningful way, so it doesn't feel tacked on or artificial. Bottom line, is that this game is going to have a tight enough budget as it stands, adding features like this will take time and resources that I just don't see this project having in abundance. I would hate to see the game suffer for trying to include too much somewhat superfluous stuff in attempt to appease everybody.

Edited September 20, 2012 by nikolokolus

[Pidesco]

One last thought.

 

What is this obsession with gender and sexuality in RPGs?

 

It makes sense.

 

If a lesbian plays a game and is forced to only flirt with men, it's kinda awkward for them. Same for gay men being told to flirt with women, same for a bisexual who can't hit on their same gender. It's simply the game telling them to be something they're not.

 

A role playing game telling people they're playing a role other than their own? Oh, the humanity.

[The Sharmat]

A role playing game *telling* anyone to play a role kind of defeats the purpose. You're supposed to choose your own. Otherwise it's not roleplaying.

[Jaesun]

One last thought.

 

What is this obsession with gender and sexuality in RPGs?

 

It makes sense.

 

If a lesbian plays a game and is forced to only flirt with men, it's kinda awkward for them. Same for gay men being told to flirt with women, same for a bisexual who can't hit on their same gender. It's simply the game telling them to be something they're not.

 

I've been forced to play a heterosexual man in cRPG's since the 90's when I first started playing them. I had no problem with it. It's just a game. I can differentiate a game from real life.

[Pidesco]

A role playing game *telling* anyone to play a role kind of defeats the purpose. You're supposed to choose your own. Otherwise it's not roleplaying.

 

Swing and a miss.

[Hoverdog]

Halo is a rpg because I play the role of Master Chef!!!

[Lady Evenstar]

I think role-playing is kind of like acting. You can either interpret a pre-existing character or improvise your own. The definition doesn't require one or the other. In computer games the player usually has some, but not complete, control of who their character is.

[Pidesco]

How can someone play a ranger in an RPG when they're actually a chartered accountant?

 

And why does this product done in a limited amount of time with a limited budget not appeal to every single unique flower in a population of 6 billion?

[The Sharmat]

Swing and a miss.

How so? Even in a game where you play a 'predefined' character, like Torment's Nameless One, you're choosing all his responses and thus deciding what kind of role he plays in the plot and what sort of personality he has.

[Longknife]

One last thought.

 

What is this obsession with gender and sexuality in RPGs?

 

It makes sense.

 

If a lesbian plays a game and is forced to only flirt with men, it's kinda awkward for them. Same for gay men being told to flirt with women, same for a bisexual who can't hit on their same gender. It's simply the game telling them to be something they're not.

 

A role playing game telling people they're playing a role other than their own? Oh, the humanity.

 

But it's common for people to want to base a roleplaying character on themselves.

I sure as hell make more male characters than female characters (infact I RARELY make female characters) because I can simply relate to a male better. Why? Because I too enjoy the boobies.

 

Same thing here. And even if EVERYONE had an easy time roleplaying as another sexual orientation, I see no reason why the game should say no to those that WANT to play a lesbian or whatever.

[Traynoober]

One last thought.

 

What is this obsession with gender and sexuality in RPGs?

 

It makes sense.

 

If a lesbian plays a game and is forced to only flirt with men, it's kinda awkward for them. Same for gay men being told to flirt with women, same for a bisexual who can't hit on their same gender. It's simply the game telling them to be something they're not.

 

 

Solution is simple. Don't include any kind of romantic relationships.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Tale

[nikolokolus]

A role playing game *telling* anyone to play a role kind of defeats the purpose. You're supposed to choose your own. Otherwise it's not roleplaying.

 

That's true, but that still doesn't answer the question of how resources should be divided in the project to try and include a transgender option. Unless you want the world to react to your player's transgender status (which would be tough to know unless they checked under the hood) what's the difference between a player picking an option on the character creation screen and just using their imagination and declaring, "My character was born a man, but chooses to live as a woman" and then picking the outward appearance appropriate for their choice?

 

If I saw a transgender option on the character creation screen I would assume that it plays a central position in how the game world reacts to me, in the same way that I would expect the game world to react to my character's profession or race, and that means a lot of written dialogue, which means money and time devoted to that instead of other things.

Edited September 20, 2012 by nikolokolus