[merged] Vancian Magic System and cooldowns

[Gatt9]

I hate having to rest to use spells or recharge. All that does is force you to spam resting which is stupid. I am for cooldowns or a quick way to recharge without forcing resting. This might be one they need to set up optional choices in options for the players to decide what they prefer.

 

I'm not a fan of cooldowns, they're too arcadey. Memorization at least has a rationale explanation for it, and reflects a Character's engergy level. Cooldowns are the equivalent of...

 

Party: It's still moving! Quick, cast Fireball again!

Wizard: I can't. Not for another 47 seconds. That spell can only be cast once every 60 seconds!

 

IMO "Rest spamming" is a player trying to keep a full complement of spells rather than using them judiciously.

[Romiras]

My personal favorite = mana resource, which should be refilled by rest and by (extremely rare and expensive) potions at higher tiers.

 

In computer games encounters happen WAY more often then in pen&pencil ones and I always feel a bit lame when my great and powerful mages spent their spells on some wayward goblins and arrive to some mighty dungeon with only say "vocalize" memorized.

 

Mana mechanic allows you way more control over your spells and in my personal opinion makes your mages more fun to play. You CAN cast those three fireballs in a row. That will leave your Mage with NO mana at all, but you CAN do that.

[aVENGER]

I don't like cooldown timers. They are immersion breaking for me.

 

I'd prefer a well designed mana/energy/fatigue system which would not end up in potion spamming but, at the same time, wouldn't force the player to wait for ages until he can use a spell/ability either.

[metiman]

I hate having to rest to use spells or recharge. All that does is force you to spam resting which is stupid. I am for cooldowns or a quick way to recharge without forcing resting. This might be one they need to set up optional choices in options for the players to decide what they prefer.

 

Fine. The cooldowns will be 24 hours. Of CPU time, not game time.

[sparklecat]

I'd prefer an energy system over the Vancian system, and agree that cooldowns feel artificial, but I'd actually really like something that takes into account the need to learn still.

 

 

Never made much sense to me that I'd know perfectly well how to cast Fireball for a year straight, and then because I hadn't picked it for a slot one day, I'd suddenly forget how. That's not how brains work, and if there was some other explanation for what was going on, the games certainly didn't make that clear. In real life, I may have access to a book that I can refer to and use to slowly, say, integrate by parts or whatever, but the more times I refer back and use it and practice, the less I have to use the book until eventually I don't need it at all because the method's understood and memorised.

 

Why not something like that for magic, without going the Morrowind route? Let us start out with a few spells in our party-wide book, find (with a certain selection unavoidable via main quest) or purchase more to add to it, but make improving as a magic user include an element of practice, where the spells are always available, but the cast time for each individual one decreases the more you use it, eventally plateauing. Maybe refine your technique (learn shortcuts, get to recognize commonly used integrals in my maths analogy!) so that they become more powerful or use less energy too.

 

Would be a fun way to really personalise your character and encourage planning for different possibilities, without leaving you completely screwed because you prepared all fireballs today/put all your points in the fire spells/whatever and just ran into a dragon. You've still got that icestorm available, and maybe if you're a little more balanced in your training time/during non-essential fights in future, you won't end up taking quite so much damage because you keep looking at the notes you made on your arm while you're trying to cast.

[metiman]

By always available do you mean being able to spam 30 fireballs in a row? Or are we still talking about using a mana bar of some kind which can be recharged by sleeping?

[sparklecat]

My initial thought is that there would be some sort of mana/energy system alongside this that's tied to the standard RPG levelling up mechanism. So yeah, theoretically possible to spam 30 fireballs in a row if you're already an archmage with a huge amount of energy (maybe a global casting time decrease as well as you level?), and have already got fireball down through how much you've practiced it, but not something your average mage will be doing.

 

I like the idea of potions being an option, but I'd like to see a downside for getting overly reliant on them as well. Addiction, or decreasing returns, perhaps?

Edited September 30, 2012 by sparklecat

[Umberlin]

I'm against a system built around cooldowns. I really can't stand systems that just leave me waiting on a little count down timer, for a bunch of reasons, one of the worst being it puts too much focus on the UI instead of on the game where it should be.

[sparklecat]

Oh, and I should specify that I hate the concept of interrupts wiping out all progress towards casting a spell, as well. Let it slow me down, sure, but let me pick up where I left off if I'm no longer being hit, or even let me continue at a slowed pace while being attacked if I'm not taking too heavy damage. Let me move while I'm casting something, also taking a hit to my speed, or break in between paragraphs of mystical nonsense to drink a health potion.

[Infinitron]

I don't know if the game needs to use strict Vancian casting per se, but I would definitely like it to preserve that special D&D feeling of the spellbook as a custom-made "toolkit" that needs to be prepared ahead of time.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Infinitron

[Caerdon]

I don't understand this seemingly common idea that this 'Vancian casting' - spellcasting based on memorization - is somehow more tactical that other types of spellcasting. Let's be honest here: memorization rewards metagaming and reloading. It encourages you to prepare for a very specific encounter instead of being able to adjust to changing conditions of the battlefield, which is what tactical thinking is really about, in my opinion.

 

I'd like some kind of combination of fatigue (with increasing reduced performance), recharging mana and maybe cooldowns for some of the more impressive spells of mass destruction. Or something completely different, whatever the devs have in mind. And if you really wan't that 'tactical' advantage of having your favourite spells memorized in advance, maybe that could be a specific skill: being able to prepare X number of spells for quicker casting, reduced mana consumption, shorter cooldowns or something similar - but that advantage should at least come with the price of not being able to spend those skill points on something else.

 

I have faith in the developers in this matter, though.

[vv221]

I really like the vancian system (even if I didn't know this word before today), and I think a mana pool should be avoided if we want to keep the magic highly tactical.

An alternative I'm thinking of is having some kind of object(s) needed for every casting of every spell (which will be consumed by the use), like for exemple you need a handful of fireberries for a fireball...

 

Anyway, I'd like every spell casting to be a meaningful choice. Please don't make spellcasters some kind of furious killing machine with inifinite power like in most hack'n'slash !

[beerflavour]

I'm a bit torn on this issue. My personal preferences come down to something D&Dish (vancian). If the rules end up being too similar to D&D then some legal issues might arise. On the other hand I don't know exactly what the devs have in mind and how their system will turn out.

 

I guess I'll give Obsidian the benefit of the doubt.

Edited September 30, 2012 by beerflavour

[Magnum Opus]

Why not try something entirely different? Let's give magic real power... and a real cost.

 

What if magic "built up" in a person's system with each use, and each new spell had an increasing chance of a devastating misfire?

What if magic acted upon the caster the same way Potions do upon the Witcher? Toxic, in other words, with varying levels of toxicity for the various levels of spells, and with increasing penalties when your toxicity level got too high? That would certainly limit the spamming of high level spells, and if the "toxicity" only vanished after resting, or with the use of a potion which itself was hard-to-find -- exactly how hard to find would be a matter of balance -- then you introduce a strategic element as well.

 

And what if, instead of the result of casting being a toxin in the blood a la potions, the resultant damage was to the person's soul instead?

 

What if, after pushing oneself too hard for too long, magically speaking, the soul ended up splintering, fracturing, or otherwise even being destroyed, twisted, or consumed (in the case of demonic summoning?)

 

Yep. A lot of "what if's" regarding magic. And souls.

[Caerdon]

I don't think Vancian spellcasting is that tactical at all. I just made a little post about it in another thread before this one got divinely resurrected.

 

As for spell progression: I like to learn individual spells, but they should all scale with your level or 'spellpower'. A spell shouldn't have any innate power, it's your power that you're channeling.

 

I don't like divine spells for the simple reason that I prefer a game without any deities whatsoever. But different 'schools' or ways of using magic: why not.

[NoxNoctum]

I like the Vancian system but only if they can make a rest system that can't be endlessly abused.

 

Really though they should just do whatever I trust them.

[sparklecat]

Here's what I said I preferred in the other thread Caerdon just mentioned. Summary: spells "level up" individually with use plus mana pool/global levelling benefits.

 

 

 

I'd prefer an energy system over the Vancian system, and agree that cooldowns feel artificial, but I'd actually really like something that takes into account the need to learn still.

 

 

Never made much sense to me that I'd know perfectly well how to cast Fireball for a year straight, and then because I hadn't picked it for a slot one day, I'd suddenly forget how. That's not how brains work, and if there was some other explanation for what was going on, the games certainly didn't make that clear. In real life, I may have access to a book that I can refer to and use to slowly, say, integrate by parts or whatever, but the more times I refer back and use it and practice, the less I have to use the book until eventually I don't need it at all because the method's understood and memorised.

 

Why not something like that for magic, without going the Morrowind route? Let us start out with a few spells in our party-wide book, find (with a certain selection unavoidable via main quest) or purchase more to add to it, but make improving as a magic user include an element of practice, where the spells are always available, but the cast time for each individual one decreases the more you use it, eventally plateauing. Maybe refine your technique (learn shortcuts, get to recognize commonly used integrals in my maths analogy!) so that they become more powerful or use less energy too.

 

Would be a fun way to really personalise your character and encourage planning for different possibilities, without leaving you completely screwed because you prepared all fireballs today/put all your points in the fire spells/whatever and just ran into a dragon. You've still got that icestorm available, and maybe if you're a little more balanced in your training time/during non-essential fights in future, you won't end up taking quite so much damage because you keep looking at the notes you made on your arm while you're trying to cast.

[Infinitron]

I don't understand this seemingly common idea that this 'Vancian casting' - spellcasting based on memorization - is somehow more tactical that other types of spellcasting. Let's be honest here: memorization rewards metagaming and reloading. It encourages you to prepare for a very specific encounter instead of being able to adjust to changing conditions of the battlefield, which is what tactical thinking is really about, in my opinion.

 

You're correct, it really is more strategic than tactical. And that's awesome too.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Infinitron

[Karranthain]

Selecting the best spells for the spellbook was a fun process in itself.

 

I'm all in favour of a Vancian system.

 

And as for cooldowns - kill it with fire please.

[TrashMan]

Vanician or Fatigue. Something that limits the mage and prevens spamming. I want spells to be powerfull, resources to use wisely.

[TrashMan]

I don't understand this seemingly common idea that this 'Vancian casting' - spellcasting based on memorization - is somehow more tactical that other types of spellcasting. Let's be honest here: memorization rewards metagaming and reloading. It encourages you to prepare for a very specific encounter instead of being able to adjust to changing conditions of the battlefield, which is what tactical thinking is really about, in my opinion.

 

You can prepare any way you want... that's the beauty of it.You cna use multi-purpose spells. Specilzed spells. Mix of spells.

Of cours,e you can say "reload and adjust spells" ... Yes it can be done. But you can also reload if you battle tactics suck. Does that make battle tactics untactical?

Furthermore, if resitng is made difficult/impossible in may places, then you'd have to load a far older save game.

 

 

The only other system I can think off that would work would be fatigue. Fatigue would re-charge normally, but max fatigue wouldn't - you'd have to sleep.

Which gives you more leavy in which spells you can cast, but also limits how many you can cast a day.

 

 

Maybe a mix of the two. Not sure if having every spell avilable at once is a good idea.

[TrashMan]

How about a mix between Fatigue system and Vanican?

 

 

For those of you who played Jagged Alliance2, you know how fatigue/stamina worked. It got spent during you walking, running and doing strenious stuff (like traveling around the world).

Your MAX stamina would only regenerate by sleeping/resting. Max stamina delpletes slowly, while "normal" stamina depletes fast and it regenerates by itself constantly.

 

So you start the day with 100 stamina...you travel to the village of Hax and your max stamina is down to 80. You start a battle there and after some running and spell casting you stamina is down to 30/60. So your max stamina is down to 60. Your stamina will replenish to 60/60 as long as your mage catches a breather.

Another fight later your stamina is 10/50....the mages catches his breath for a minute and it's back to 50/50.

 

The lower the stamina gets the bigger the enalties and spell faliure and some spells can't even be cast (or can, but drain your of your HP if you don't have enough stamina)

 

Now, the spells - think of it working as a Mage/Sorcerrer hybrid. You have to prepare spells for the day (you can change spells from your spellbok like a mage) - but once set you can onyl cast those spells, even if you can cast the same spell over and over, as long as you have enough stamina.

 

Sound good?

[Lysen]

Don't like cooldowns, don't like Vancian system either. Mana pool is better. I like how it was handled in Bloodlines, where you have to feed in order to replenish your "mana".

Edited September 30, 2012 by Lysen

[TrashMan]

Never made much sense to me that I'd know perfectly well how to cast Fireball for a year straight, and then because I hadn't picked it for a slot one day, I'd suddenly forget how. That's not how brains work, and if there was some other explanation for what was going on, the games certainly didn't make that clear.

 

Spells are exceptionally complex and consuming, so they are PRE-CAST. Think of those long, long rituals.

 

Basicly, that fireball? You cast it before you got out of the tavern, inscribing it in your brain. It is there, waiting for you to release it with the final words/gestures.

And a mage can only hold so many at once.

Technicly, a mage could try to cast a fireball on the fly, but I don't think your enemies will wait for an hour for you to finish.

 

Makes sense when you look at it like that, don't it?

[sparklecat]

Never made much sense to me that I'd know perfectly well how to cast Fireball for a year straight, and then because I hadn't picked it for a slot one day, I'd suddenly forget how. That's not how brains work, and if there was some other explanation for what was going on, the games certainly didn't make that clear.

 

Spells are exceptionally complex and consuming, so they are PRE-CAST. Think of those long, long rituals.

 

Basicly, that fireball? You cast it before you got out of the tavern, inscribing it in your brain. It is there, waiting for you to release it with the final words/gestures.

And a mage can only hold so many at once.

Technicly, a mage could try to cast a fireball on the fly, but I don't think your enemies will wait for an hour for you to finish.

 

Makes sense when you look at it like that, don't it?

 

I dunno man, I guess it makes sense, but it still makes me feel like I'm a USB stick :D