[merged] Vancian Magic System and cooldowns

[Amentep]

I'll wait and see how it is implemented before making any real opions.

 

Shevek - as I recall Wizards had more spell slots; rest spamming was a way to maximize your spell power. I can't say I used it - too often I needed rest in areas with random encounters - but given all the other metagaming people did with IE games...

[ogrezilla]

Copy pasted from another forum:

 

What I think the classic Vancian system does (ideally, at least) is encourage a roguelike mentality where the players try to survive as long as possible before resting for more spells.

 

That can be pretty challenging and fun.

In video game form the combination of vancian magic and rest mechanics encouraged you to rest as often as possible to be as strong as you could be.

Edited October 2, 2012 by ogrezilla

[Hypevosa]

NO! Cool Downs KILL IT WITH FIRE! Obsidian, why hast thou forsaken me?

 

LukeSkywalkerNOOOOOO.jpg

http://nooooooooooooooo.com/

[Wirdjos]

Lore and coherent world design are not fluff to me. I want to play a game, not a spread sheet. Ideally, mechanics and lore are developed side by side. Ironically, and apparently almost uniquely, in many ways I enjoyed the BG series and PST DESPITE the rules system, not because of it. D&D mechanics have their place, and are best used when mitigated by a human hand. Transferring them to a computer was great fun (I say this as someone who consumed hundreds and hundreds of hours of the SSI box sets) but I think we have the freedom to incorporate a more nuanced system with being tied to an older, table top designed system.

 

TLDR - Lore and story is not fluff. Good explanation and good mechanics are not mutually exclusive.

 

I second this heartly and it's one of the biggest reasons I'm supporting P:E. Because mechanics and lore are being developed side by side to work with in a single medium with a single engine, there is a much smaller chance of crazy, convoluted explanations for things that are obviously just mechanics. I generally play RPGs to explore the world and its internal logic so it drives me nuts when something appears poorly thought out or adapted.

 

right, the problem was the combination of magic and rest systems. The magic system could work but the rest mechanic ruined it.

 

I'm pretty sure I'm with you. I find myself wondering what the system would look like without the resting mechanic. I think if we could find that answer, it would unite a few people arguing at the moment.

[wormix]

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/EricSchwarz/20120502/169672/Why_I_Hate_Cooldowns.php

[Cyn!c]

Use the Vancian system and restrict resting permissions via the difficulty levels - casuals can rest any time, any where. On any other difficulty resting is severely restricted. You should never be able to rest in a dungeon unless you find some kind of cave. Maybe even have a non combat ability, some kind of ranger like skill, that allows you to spot safe places to rest. There are so many ways to improve the way the Vancian system has been implemented in cRPGs. It's sad and lazy for Obsidian to just default to cool downs.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Cyn!c

[Tuco Benedicto]

Copy pasted from another forum:

 

What I think the classic Vancian system does (ideally, at least) is encourage a roguelike mentality where the players try to survive as long as possible before resting for more spells.

 

That can be pretty challenging and fun.

Yes, it can. Well, it is. But that's also true for a system where you don't have to memorize specific spells, like the sorcerer's one. Or for a mana based system where mana is not subject to regen.

It works as far as spells are a limited resource, no matter what system is in use.

[LordCrash]

Some form of "exhaustion" system for mages would be cool. Casting effective but demanding spells should have impacts on the caster to the extend that his possible actions (attack, casting, dodging, healing,....) are limited for a certain amount of time and his defense is low after casting a high level spell (although that is some way of cooldown for EVERY spell). So a mage should really think about which spells he uses in battle, less demanding and less powerful ones or the real effective ones which lead to great exhaustion.

A system like that would not only be more "realistic" and coherent in a way fantasy literature deals with magic, it would also make the artifical mana and the artificial memorization systems (which are both only invented for video game mechanics) obsolete without being forced to use a pre-ability cooldown system.

[Odarbi]

I'm not really opposed to Cooldowns or Vancian, I simply would like to see the game do away with the idea of "rest after every battle" as is sounds like their idea is.

 

The one thing I will say is that if they do go with cooldowns: The cooldowns should not be able to be beaten by resting, as it would make the whole mechanic change pointless... unless they also intend to add a cooldown on resting (at which point, they don't even really need to add the cooldown to abilities in the first place).

 

I do think an exhaustion type mechanic as has probably been explained to death by this point would be an interesting system to go with, but I can't help but think it'd take a fair amount of work to do right.

Edited October 2, 2012 by Odarbi

[Metabot]

http://www.gamasutra...e_Cooldowns.php

 

Meh that guy's an idiot. Almost everything he says is entirely subjective, a non-sequitor, or just wrong. His stance is more from the perspective of an action gamer than really caring about RPG mechanics.

[Tale]

Not Vancian. I'm comfortable with cooldowns between the two. I would, as with everything else I comment about, like to see something different. But in this instance, I don't feel comfortable making suggestions for what that different might be.

 

I've seen interesting ideas like fatigue. Systems where some spells take from a mana bar, but others don't. Sorcerer like spells per day. Just not Vancian.

[Infinitron]

http://www.gamasutra...e_Cooldowns.php

 

Meh that guy's an idiot. Almost everything he says is entirely subjective, a non-sequitor, or just wrong. His stance is more from the perspective of an action gamer than really caring about RPG mechanics.

 

That guy is a poster on this forum. Got anything to say for yourself, sea?

Edited October 2, 2012 by Infinitron

[Jaesun]

http://www.gamasutra...e_Cooldowns.php

 

Meh that guy's an idiot. Almost everything he says is entirely subjective, a non-sequitor, or just wrong. His stance is more from the perspective of an action gamer than really caring about RPG mechanics.

 

So basically you failed to read the entire article? Not surprising.

[curryinahurry]

This is an academic discussion at this point. They do not want Vancian magic and they do not want rest. They will not budge on this (at least according to what JE said last). This doesn't leave much else except mana (or some other resource) and cooldowns as far as what will work in a video game. I am a bit disappointed here but we can do nothing but wait and see.

 

They will have to discuss amongst themselves those systems and discuss how to place those in the world while making magic feel, well, magical (as opposed to gimmicky) and not insanely overpowered nor weak. Once they come up with a system, we can debate on perceived strengths/weaknesses once they release that information. At that point, they can again choose whether or not to accept our feedback.

 

Honestly, we have put rationale behind our suppport of assorted spell systems. They will take that information and do what they will. Maybe we should all take a breath and leave the developing to the developers.

 

It will be interesting to see where they go with THAC0, Attack Bonus, etc as far as martial types go after this discussion, lol.

 

Where was it stated that they didn't want resting? Not a challenge, just curious. To be honest, that would disappoint me, especially if they are going for an IE feel

[Metabot]

http://www.gamasutra...e_Cooldowns.php

 

Meh that guy's an idiot. Almost everything he says is entirely subjective, a non-sequitor, or just wrong. His stance is more from the perspective of an action gamer than really caring about RPG mechanics.

 

That guy is a poster on this forum. Got anything to say for yourself, sea?

 

Oh it's sea? Even better, always thought he was kind of

[Metabot]

http://www.gamasutra...e_Cooldowns.php

 

Meh that guy's an idiot. Almost everything he says is entirely subjective, a non-sequitor, or just wrong. His stance is more from the perspective of an action gamer than really caring about RPG mechanics.

 

So basically you failed to read the entire article? Not surprising.

 

I read it when it was first posted and I just read it again. His arguments against cooldowns are terrible. Such as "they're inherently bad" or "they're completely non-interactive."

[Jaesun]

Oh OK.

[Jasede]

Extremely disappointed.

It still has MCA at least.

Still, a blow, a heavy one.

[Jaesun]

Extremely disappointed.

It still has MCA at least.

Still, a blow, a heavy one.

 

...And Tim and Josh... and all the other un-named Obsidian people.

[mikayel]

That's... what 5 threads merged as one? This is far too bloated to even keep track of anymore...

[Jasede]

True, true. We'll still love it for their hard work.

But we won't love the cooldowns. Never. Way to make the combat unappealing.

[Wirdjos]

That's... what 5 threads merged as one? This is far too bloated to even keep track of anymore...

 

I agree! I just spent a couple of minutes looking for my last post as some sort of landmark... and failed. I think it's time to abandon ship and close this horrible, horrible mess.

[Gorth]

Indeed. Too many threads created on the subject. Anybody feel like creating a new one (and only one) on vancian and cooldown stuff?