Gay and Lesbian Inclusiveness!

[wbn]

If it fits the game and character, that's great. If it doesn't, it's not an attack on anyone's sexual freedom - it's just how the game is. This might end up being a universe in which sexuality is unheard of completely. Maybe there's same-sex love exclusively. Maybe the writers don't even want to hint at anything sexual.

 

 

I mention this because many of the more vocal BioWare fans seem to have bullied BW into injecting every character with acute pansexuality under the guise of political correctness, even going as far as calling them bigots. Such a ridiculous notion. Forcing characteristics on characters just to have those in the game does nothing but dilute him/her into a caricature.

[Nakia]

I think the OP was referring to more casual relationships of NPCs rather than to possible romancers. Nuances of homosexuality are fine with me as long as it is not forced or flagrant. Heterosexuality is accepted and remarked upon so why should homosexuality be? Unless there is some gameplay reason.

[el pinko grande]

* shrugs * I'm very tolerant person. I don't like some of the language in this thread either. It doesn't mean that I agree with the OP, I'm anti-all romances. And it certainly doesn't mean I'm a bigot, that's a bit of a cheap straw-man rearing it's head if it's aimed at me.

 

I'm certainly not against references to any number of different lifestyles. Including sexual ones. A fantasy culture where, for example, same-sex relationships were venerated and mandatory for the elite (Troy, anyone?) might be interesting. Another where rampant and murderous homophobia is the order of the day mightmake a powerful story too.

 

In context this is fine. What bugs me is the clamour for sexualised content, as if this automatically constitutes mature or old-skool gaming styles and values (because it doesn't).

 

I'm generally pro-romance, but I wouldn't say that I have any interest in "sexualized content." I personally don't care if the romances delve into the sexual element at all. What bothers me, specifically in the context of role-playing games, is when the subject of romance isn't dealt with at all. If there's an organic reason to not have romances, then sure, don't include them. I don't want video games to become like mainstream movies where the protaganist automatically has to have a romantic interest even if it makes no sense whatsoever to the story. But the way most CRPGs are structured, leaving out romances seems like a weird omission. So really, I've been spending months traveling the world with the hot druidess, undergoing shared traumas and saving the world, and the subject of romance never comes up? Seriously? That strikes me as bizarre.

[Crosmando]

It would depend on the culture of the setting.

 

If the setting is medieval, then definetely not because the moral system reviles homosexuality, that doesn't exclude rich nobles getting away with it because well... they're rich.

 

If the setting is more like a fantasy version of Ancient Greece sure.... but only the men.

[Progressive_Stupidity]

I support this. It will greatly enhance role-play for gay players (or people who like to role-play all sorts of different characters) and I trust Obsidian to write nuanced gay characters.

[limaxophobiacq]

Include them as fits the story and is statistically plausible (about 5% of the population gay + some more who are bi IIRC), and don't do it by just having them tell you they're gay for no reason just to show inclusiveness (the inclusiveness in itself is good but there are good and bad ways of doing it). If there's any games writer I trust to do this right it's Avellone, so I'm not really worried.

 

Edit: I don't really care for much 'sexual' or romantic content anyway, but given that a lot of characters will probably be portraid as straight like having wives and husbands of the opposite sex there should probably be one or two who are not but no need to make a big deal out of it.

Edited September 18, 2012 by limaxophobiacq

[Malcador]

Well if they did, it'd be good (and easy) PR - get them good words from press and relevant groups. Romances, meh, I'd prefer none - I play my RPGs strictly business for the most part. If they decide an NPC needs to be a homosexual because it'll add depth to him and so on, can't see that being a problem.

[philips]

Thanks Rick Santorum.

 

What? I was speaking on good faith. PS: I have nothing against gays and gay characters. But its VERY unrealisitc to picture a world where everyone is gay or straight. Or as if he only two sexual orientations that existed where those two.

Edited September 18, 2012 by philips

[MinotaurWarrior]

If the setting is medieval, then definetely not because the moral system reviles homosexuality, that doesn't exclude rich nobles getting away with it because well... they're rich.

This is precisely why I think there should be homosexual characters in the game - because homosexuality is really relevant in the medieval era. Homosexuals were reviled, but they existed, and even outside of the dangers of being discovered, there were serious practical concerns for property inheritence, formal duties (homosexual nobility), et cetera. The gay scion of an ancient line of sacred warriors, sworn to protect the font of Allahandra is going to have a damned interesting story. The skilled businesswoman who cannot own property without becoming married to a person of the gender to which she is not attracted? That's another interesting story right there.

 

There are a bunch of cool stories like this that I'd like to see in a fantasy RPG.

[Aidoneus]

About roleplaying...

Are we sure that we roleplay a character in a cRPG as we roleplay in a p&p RPG ?

To me roleplaying a character needs interaction with real, lively people, who can react to your actions specifically and spontaneously. It's just not possible in a computer game.

Roleplay aspects of a cRPG have nothing to do with interpretation. It just doesn't exist.

By the way, i've never roleplayed a romance -gay or otherwise - in a tabletop rpg, whicih, i my opinion, would be kinda creepy...

So why would we need it in a cRPG.

Just give us good exploration, skills mecanics & factions, thanks.

If you desperetaly need fanfiction-level "romance", there's still 50 shades of Grey or something...

[c0wb0ycliche]

Its not about "fanfiction level romance" its about wanting a universe that has some LGBT people in it and if the game allows for romances, that it allows for a same sex option. Its about a few lines of dialogue, not 50 shades level graphicness.

[MinotaurWarrior]

By the way, i've never roleplayed a romance -gay or otherwise - in a tabletop rpg, whicih, i my opinion, would be kinda creepy...

So why would we need it in a cRPG.

You don't have romances when roleplaying with your friends because that'd be creepy to do with your friends. As you yourself said, there's a greater degree of player / character separation in cRPGs, and just as I occasionally enjoy romantic subplots in my stories, I occasionally enjoy romantic subplots in my games. It's not creepy to participate in a story where two characters have a romance. However, I do agree that romantic subplots are overly common in most media.

 

But anyway, this is besides the point, because characters can have sexual orientations without wanting to bone the PC.

[Metzger]

I don't mind gay characters as long as their roles are minor. Or as long as the role of their gayness is minor. If one of the companions is gay but it's not a big deal -- fine. Arcade Gannon is a good example. But no gay romances, please, that's just disgusting.

[Nonek]

If the gay characters are as well defined as for instance Arcade Gannon, then I don't think anbody would have a problem with them, his sexuality was not flaunted or much discussed but it did influence his personality in a realistic fashion. And most importantly he was not making juvenile passes at me every five minutes, or reacting like a character in some over emotional dating sim.

 

I guess there is some bias on my part, i'm an older married man and just not partricularly interested in romances, especially with virtual characters. That and the stunted emotional range of a true englishman, conspire to make me definitely not part of the target audience for the teenage angsty date sim element. The only character I truly felt such a deep connection with in any game was Kreia, and that may have just been admiration for such a strong, tragic figure.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Nonek

[Sarog]

This is precisely why I think there should be homosexual characters in the game - because homosexuality is really relevant in the medieval era. Homosexuals were reviled, but they existed, and even outside of the dangers of being discovered, there were serious practical concerns for property inheritence, formal duties (homosexual nobility), et cetera. The gay scion of an ancient line of sacred warriors, sworn to protect the font of Allahandra is going to have a damned interesting story. The skilled businesswoman who cannot own property without becoming married to a person of the gender to which she is not attracted? That's another interesting story right there.

 

There are a bunch of cool stories like this that I'd like to see in a fantasy RPG.

 

That would be a good story, but I don't think that story will be told in an RPG any time soon. Including a story like that would mean including homophobic prejudice in the story as a theme to be dealt with and a real force in the world, which would invariably make a lot of people - homosexual or not - feel uncomfortable or persecuted, and open the storyteller up to a lot of potential backlash. Games that do include homosexuality largely seem to shy away from any analysis of it in society, treating their game worlds like a sexually open utopia even while tackling issues like racism and terrorism quite boldly. I expect it will be quite a few years yet before the nitty gritty of such a topic can be examined in a game. I guess someone is going to have be bold and be the first to try approaching the issue as anything other than thinly veiled allegory, but I wouldn't want to be the PR guy working for that company.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Sarog

[Seldon]

So why would we need it in a cRPG.

 

 

Simply because it makes our character more real "person" and less "puppet in the world of pixels". Why should I care about what happens on the screen if there's no bond between my character and others ? That was one of Fallout's or Arcanum's problems (great games otherwise):

one of my team members died in long and tiring battle. Did I load game and tried to save him ? Nah, why should I ? The same situation in BG2 or Torment ? "OMG he's permanently dead, I need to retry this battle."

 

 

Just give us good exploration, skills mecanics & factions, thanks.

 

IMO Obsidian games where always about design, writing and characters. They could be buggy and not polished but for many gamers it was story, dialogues and NPC's that made great experience, nonetheless.

Romance are just integral part of human interaction. If they are made in tasteful manner (Annah in Torment i.e., romances in BG2) they enrich the experience.

Personally I don't mind homo or bi characters as long as they're integral part of the world and not some politically correct add-on.

[Drowsy Emperor]

But when you start trying to put specific stuff in to fill a quota, you're thinking about something other than the quality of the story. It's just a bad way to approach things in general.

 

This is plain as day in Bioware games where you see how forced and contrived it is when you come to the "token gay character" (or just romance option... it's plain as day when you come across a companion you can romance... there's zero subtlety)

 

Avellone and Sawyer have produced a game before, chosen to include homosexual characters and successfully done it without having it detract from the story. They chose this and did it in a way that everyone agrees was perfect.

 

I ask again, has anyone here even PLAYED New Vegas?

 

Seriously to me this is as ridiculous as someone demanding that Tolkien (or I guess GRMM would be a better example) put something in their next book to fit their particular group. It's just dumb. Let them write a story and let the chips fall where they may.

 

But it's barely story relevant. It's no more story relevant than a guy saying "hold on, let me ask my wife, she'd know. I'll meet you back here in an hour."

It's no more story relevant than some guy being black and that's that, with his skin color having no plot relevance or story importance other than it just being who he is.

 

So why have it?

 

Really, such homo correctness terrorism is hilarious.

 

Same exact concept here. Homosexual characters should be included because this is the world we live in.

 

We don't live in imaginary fantasy worlds and they don't have to correspond with the real world in regards to anything.

 

The argument is nonsensical.

 

Should we put in George Bush then? That's also the world "we live in"

[Fionavar]

Hi everyone,

 

I just want to take a moment to thank you all for discussing this important matter for gameplay (and which obviously acts as a mirror to our own context) in a relatively constructive and respectful manner. I also want to explicitly remind everyone that OBS openly advocates a policy of inclusivity. As such, you may be on different pages in respect to sexual orientation, inclusivity and what means/looks like in your own lives, but the parameters for any discussion in these fora is very clear. I thank you for your input and your own endeavouring to hear one another, even when you may disagree.

 

with respect,

 

Fionavar

[Entropious]

Please remember that, at the end of the day, every work of culture is mimesis, the imitation of the real world, so you cannot entirely dismiss Earth, its history and cultural influence, out of the picture. If it was the opposite then, for example, people within this fictional universe could drink urine instead of water and no one would even bat an eyelash.

[Drowsy Emperor]

.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Drowsy Emperor

[Entropious]

Sir, you are wrong about people in the Medieval Age throwing their wastes straight on the streets. Such individuals were simply fined by the city guard or whatever else served as a political body. Nobody wanted a plague on their hands.

[c0wb0ycliche]

If it fits the game and character, that's great. If it doesn't, it's not an attack on anyone's sexual freedom - it's just how the game is. This might end up being a universe in which sexuality is unheard of completely. Maybe there's same-sex love exclusively. Maybe the writers don't even want to hint at anything sexual.

 

 

I mention this because many of the more vocal BioWare fans seem to have bullied BW into injecting every character with acute pansexuality under the guise of political correctness, even going as far as calling them bigots. Such a ridiculous notion. Forcing characteristics on characters just to have those in the game does nothing but dilute him/her into a caricature.

 

I don't think that's a fair assessment of Bioware's reasons for being so gay friendly. Dragon Age Origins featured gay characters before any fan feedback, and Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3 had more integrated and less stereotypical inclusion of gay characters. But this wasn't after being "bullied" by fans. David Gaider, DA's lead writer, and Bioware's founders own words, Bioware wants to be inclusive and show how they appreciate their fans. They are a progressive company that loves their gay fans. They weren't bullied. I hardly think a minority as small as the gay population could bully Bioware. That's an excuse from people who don't want to believe that Bioware loves and appreciates their gay fans.

[c0wb0ycliche]

I think the OP was referring to more casual relationships of NPCs rather than to possible romancers. Nuances of homosexuality are fine with me as long as it is not forced or flagrant. Heterosexuality is accepted and remarked upon so why should homosexuality be? Unless there is some gameplay reason.

 

I'm asking for both. If they have companion romance options (which I would like) they should have same sex options. Regardless of if they do, they should include some gay companions and NPCs (like New Vegas.)

[Chaz]

I support this, it doesn't really need to be up in your face, you barely found out some characters were gay in F:NV unless you talked to them a lot.

[Nonek]

Making a large part of a character such as their sexuality reactive to the characters gender is surely a bad thing? We want defined and detailed characters, not cliche'd stereotypes like in Bioware games. Swinging kick arse pirate chicks who enter melee combat in a shirt, really?