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Your thoughts on level scaling:  

622 members have voted

  1. 1. Your thoughts on level scaling:

    • kill it with fire. I want to be treated like an adult and won't start crying because a dragon kills me when I'm level one. I also want to feel powerfull at the end of the game.
    • I want the weaker guys scaled according to my level. I want a challenge even if it means daadric-armoured rats.
    • I want to be the centre of the world. Everything must kneel before me and scale to my level.
    • I don't care...


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No level scaling. What I'd really like to see, however, is no level scaling, plus a flatter level power range.

 

One thing I thought was done really well recently in DA2 (and also was in V:tM: Bloodlines, and Arcanum) was that your stats didn't actually get better unless you put points in them. If you never increased your constitution, your health never went up. Never increase your cunning? Your base critical hit chance stays the same (but actually goes down relative to the critical hit resistance of your enemies). Et cetera. And, to an extent, this also applied to your enemies. The hurlocks you struggle defeating at the start of the game have about the same health as the hurlock grunts you kill in one hit later on. That creates a real fealing of progress, as opposed to, say, DA:O (or Oblivion, or any number of other titles), where the "little guys" change to suit the player. Even where there's no "level scaling", in many RPG's there still is level scaling. It's just done by hand instead of being done according to a formula. Consider NWN 2, where the human enemies, lizardlings, and types of undead you can fight all throughout the game are always scaled to the player's expected level, with grunts a level or two below the player and bosses a bit tougher than the player. It's just kinda silly. If, instead, all normal bandits were about the same in terms of combat stats, and the player just never became ten times better at everything, the game would make a good deal more sense and be more fun.

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Since this product is purportedly aimed at an adult, mature audience, I see no reason to implement a tool architected in order for kids not to have a hard time completing the game and earning all those pretty, shiny achievements on their XBOX or PlayStation.

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No scale. I think, locations should be filled with enemies of different levels, so they will be useful for players with different levels and not just "oh, this is newbie location, I will kill everyone here without a problem". Additional Elite guards for high levels is also good solution. But please don`t make low level intelligent enemies attack epic hero without reason...

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No level scaling, please! Weaker monsters in places where it makes sense to have weaker monsters and stronger monsters where it makes sense to have stronger monsters!

 

Running away from a battle you simply can't win is a good way to learn humility.

 

I think, locations should be filled with enemies of different levels, so they will be useful for players with different levels and not just "oh, this is newbie location, I will kill everyone here without a problem".
But that would add to immersion. It is realistic that it would be relatively easy for high-powered bandits to rape and pillage relatively unprotected small villages, although it of course also means that the rewards in items and gold would make it not worth it. Edited by IrishLuigi

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level scaling is heresy!


"if everyone is dead then why don't i remember dying?"

—a clueless sod to a dustman

 

"if we're all alive then why don't i remember being born?"

—the dustman's response

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No level scaling please.


"And Priestess Cadegund raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, 'Oh Magran, bless this thy hand grenade that with it thou mayest blow thy enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.'"

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As of now (around 100 votes) 97,87% says "kill it with fire". :)

 

I'm proud of the Eternity forum posters. I've regained faith in our rpg humanity.

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I hate level scaling with an absolute passion.

 

It turned a potentially god-like game (Wizardry8 into just a plain "good" game.

Edited by Crosmando

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Herecy here: well, upscaling low-level enemies is not really THAT bad, 'cause having to fight through them can be really annoying.

Just sayin'.


you can watch my triumphant procession to Rome

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As of now (around 100 votes) 97,87% says "kill it with fire". :)

 

I'm proud of the Eternity forum posters. I've regained faith in our rpg humanity.

 

It makes me all giddy seeing the unanimous support of features that everyone would have taken for granted over 10 years ago.

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But if they're upscaled it means that you fight through them slower ...

 

I prefer

 

oh bunch of goblins

 

gib gib gib gib gib

 

next

Edited by Sensuki
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Herecy here: well, upscaling low-level enemies is not really THAT bad, 'cause having to fight through them can be really annoying.

Just sayin'.

Perhaps there could be a system implemented where, when you reach a certain level, lower-level monsters wouldn't even approach you?

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My opinion: no level scaling, of course, but only to a certain extension. I think that the most pleasant fights are versus other sentient races (especially humans), and they can and must "scale" to our power level (think about a crucial fight for the plot). They are similar to the main character, with levels, powerful gears, abilities, etc. unlike monsters that don't have a true progression (usually they grow only in hit points and attack rolls/armor class).

 

So, no level scaling for monsters (you know where they are after all... a dragon's lair is quite distinctive :devil: ), only for sentient races.


"I feel stronger"

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Herecy here: well, upscaling low-level enemies is not really THAT bad, 'cause having to fight through them can be really annoying.

Just sayin'.

Perhaps there could be a system implemented where, when you reach a certain level, lower-level monsters wouldn't even approach you?

That would also be a solution, yes. :)


you can watch my triumphant procession to Rome

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There's no two ways about it for me, I think the most memorable games I've ever played are those (especially in an open world) are those that smack you down when you wander into an area that you probably don't belong in. Early levels should be tense, you should feel somewhat small and weak and pick your battles carefully, when everything scales to your level it just feels like you're grinding through an MMO, where everybody gets a participation ribbon.

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I like compromise. I tend to enjoy ranges. Some bandits scale 1-3, etc. They don't have to scale 1-20. It lets the bandits be relevant for a little longer. And allows enemies to overlap as you transition from one "tier" to another.

 

Of the choices, I guess "kill it with fire" is the closest.


"Show me a man who "plays fair" and I'll show you a very talented cheater."

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I think, locations should be filled with enemies of different levels, so they will be useful for players with different levels and not just "oh, this is newbie location, I will kill everyone here without a problem".
But that would add to immersion. It is realistic that it would be relatively easy for high-powered bandits to rape and pillage relatively unprotected small villages, although it of course also means that the rewards in items and gold would make it not worth it.

I`m trying to say that existance of completely newbie location is not very realistic. And it would be good if PCs of higher levels can find their own challenges in locations if they were skipped it before. So there must be something other than level scaling.

As example if you don`t go deal with nearby goblin village, then when you`ll come there mighty and cool you find that it was captured by orcs and you should deal with them.

I don`t say that that there must be challenges for every character level in every location. But it would be great if location changes (within reason) while hero progress main quest and became more harsh...

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If level scaling were announced, then I will immediatly remove my pledge. Level scaling is the absolute pinnacle of bad game design!! And I absolutely hate it, especially in Skyrim. *shudder*

 

I know that guys at Obsidian hate it too, they tried really hard in New Vegas to circumvent this, it was noticeable (and made a fantastic game!). In Fallout 3, for example, you could kill a super mutant with a pencil at level 1 if you wanted to. I hate it, hate it, hate it, HATE IT! :alienani:

Edited by dlux

:closed:

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I don't like level scaling, but I also think it's heavily dependent on how exploration is designed: free-roam, Bethesda style, or more plot-driven? (Bioware).

 

If it's more like the latter, where the plot itself, the narrative brings us to various parts of the world, I don't care, as long as encounters make sense for the plot and they're challenging enough.

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"The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance" - Wing Commander IV

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Level scaling is the bane of every game featuring exploration as a major motivation. It's the reason for my not buying quite a few games before there were mods out to remove it. There are games where it works (didn't have a problem with it in Mass Effect), but in general I'd say kill it with fire!

 

I want to have that sense of achievement I get from finally being able to enter the cave of the dragon, or any other area where knowledgeable NPCs told me to keep away from because its inhabitants would make mincemeat out of me. I also want that sense of accomplishment when revisiting an area and being able to cut a swath through the "small fry" or maybe even see the would-be enemies running away in panic when I approach (that's a new one btw, never seen that in a game).

Edited by Ieldra

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