Morality System

[Skyhawk02]

I wanted to get people's thoughts on a morality mechanic for Eternity and share some of my own, hopefully we can get a good discussion going.

 

Although I enjoy playing Bioware games, I really don't like the morality system in their games. When playing Mass Effect, for example, if you play a neutral character you are punished because you won't be able to use high level persuasion, in KOTOR you won't get dark/light mastery bonus.

 

In Dragon Age instead of a morality mechanic dictating your actions you have to answer to your party members for the things you do, unfortunately this has problems too. When conversing with Morrigan, for example, I often found myself redoing conversations with her so that i could get the highest influence possible. I would rather play a game where I can say what I want without being punished.

 

My idea is to not have a morality or influence system, but I am interested in other people's solutions to these problems as well.

[The Sharmat]

I disagree about the influence system. What good is a game based on player choice if your choices have no consequences? That said, I also don't like that traditionally getting low/negative influence with a character in games with such systems ends up just locking you out of content. It should add new, different content instead. Betrayals, arguments, drama, etc.

 

I'd ditch an arbitrary binary morality system entirely though. Just actions and consequences, no magic good/evil meter. Especially when it influences gameplay and affects what choices are available to you.

[Delterius]

I never felt punished for saying whatever I wanted to Dragon Age: Origins companions. If they disagree with me, they disagree with me.

[Semper]

why do you have to see all the content within a single session? locking content means worthwhile c&c and therefore higher replayability. the next time do another roleplay and encounter things you've never seen before. that's a plus in every crpg and obsidian literally stands for a well developed influence system. what should be avoided is to show "flying numbers" - the companion's reactions should be reflected within their dialogue.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Semper

[Piccolo]

I hate the way Bioware handle morality as well. It's far too obvious when interacting with NPCs, and at the same time too simplistic.

 

I think i'd prefer a more subtle reputation system working in the background, without the blatantly obvious Good / Bad / Neutral dialogue options every time I interact with an NPC.

[Nonek]

Alpha protocol, your actions have consequences.

[trulez]

I'd like multiple overlapping systems. One for companions, one for factions and one for individual quest NPCs. So one action you take might anger one of your companions, please another, lower your status with a faction and raise your status with a quest NPC, this would make the choices much more severe and harder to micromanage (you can't keep everyone happy always).

 

In games where choosing the "best" option always keeps everyone happy the dialogue, for me personally at least, quickly turns out to be a minigame of social interactions instead of me choosing what I actually want to say to that NPC.

Edited September 15, 2012 by trulez

[The Sharmat]

why do you have to see all the content within a single session? locking content means worthwhile c&c and therefore higher replayability.

You misunderstand me. If a character ends up hating you, that's fine. Choices, consequences. I don't think you should see the same content you would see if they loved you. What I object to is that making characters hate you often ends up in a net loss of total content. You didn't take an alternate path. You just hit a dead end. Don't lock content without replacing it with different content, if that's at all possible.

[Metabot]

I'd like multiple overlapping systems. One for companions, one for factions and one for individual quest NPCs. So one action you take might anger one of your companions, please another, lower your status with a faction and raise your status with a quest NPC, this would make the choices much more severe and harder to micromanage (you can't keep everyone happy always).

 

In games where choosing the "best" option always keeps everyone happy the dialogue, for me personally at least, quickly turns out to be a minigame of social interactions instead of me choosing what I actually want to say to that NPC.

 

Very nice idea. I don't get this attitude that you should be able to see and do everything. That really hinders RPGs in my opinion. It means that choices cannot have consequences, at least not meaningful ones.

[Metabot]

" When conversing with Morrigan, for example, I often found myself redoing conversations with her so that i could get the highest influence possible. I would rather play a game where I can say what I want without being punished."

 

 

No.

 

"in KOTOR you won't get dark/light mastery bonus."

 

So what?

[Wombat]

Yeah, as I repeatedly comment on this topic, I'd rather have NPCs judge the action of the protagonist than the morality slider. The worst thing about the single minded morality slider is that it gets in players' "experiencing" different views given by NPCs from various backgrounds in the imaginary world. In fact, I don't understand why FONV stuck to Karma system, having read Sawyers' writings - even the latest one.

[DAWUSS]

No morality slider - it tends to go by the belief system of the developer, not the player.

[Metabot]

No morality slider - it tends to go by the belief system of the developer, not the player.

 

So what? Maybe this world has a different morality than our own or yours. That adds to the gameplay and the world in my opinion.

[DAWUSS]

No morality slider - it tends to go by the belief system of the developer, not the player.

 

So what? Maybe this world has a different morality than our own or yours. That adds to the gameplay and the world in my opinion.

 

Then it should be decided by the denizens of the world, not the game's mechanics.

[Tamerlane]

Aside from "no good/evil slider" - and seriously, please, no good/evil slider - there are two big things for me.

 

One is not punishing middle-ground. KotOR: Playing a "grey" Jedi? Lower stats, equipment limitations, only meet Visas when you get to a certain light/dark level. Dragon Age 2: get rewarded for either angering a character or making them your friend, but if you do a bit of both, they... might leave half-way through? What? This isn't about not making actions have consequences, this is about not punishing nuance and character development.

 

The second is that whatever system is in place should not be easily "gameable". About to do something that Party Member X disagrees with? Leave X behind for a bit, do your dirty business, then re-add them to avoid all consequences. Never sat right with me.

[Humanoid]

I'd be curious whether a completely hidden "morality" (by which I mean reputation-based, as discussed in the general gaming forum) system would work. Let's abstract towns, factions, and important NPCs (including party members) each as an entity, and define each entity as having two things: a) a reaction to each one of your choices (including a null reaction for things they could not possibly be privy to); and b) a hidden reputation counter which cumulatively keeps track of such. Note that by "hidden" in this context I mean that it's never quantified. You can have reactions - a snide remark from a party member, a dressing-down from the local lord of the land, effusive praise from the clergy of a particular deity, or be outright attacked - and for the most part they should be predictable, with only the rare gotchas.

 

Reputation can act as a sort of latitude from your out-of-character actions, a favour mechanic of some sort. You could commit a capital crime and be pardoned, or be given the benefit of the doubt when trying to tell a bald-faced lie. The examples may be a bit too specific, but going back, the broad idea is that it'd be a modifier to future reactions with a given entity which can modify the outcome of a given decision outright.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Humanoid

[Tychoxi]

I would love it if they put some gameplay options where you can choose to hide morality, yes! (either fully i.e. it's not even on your char page, or just that you dont get info about it every time you make a moral choice, you just get to check your char page from time to time and see where you are at. I would prefer this second option). Same applies for the influence system, sometimes it should be obvious how your choices (actions, inactions, dialog,etc) will affect each companion (if you know their background and/or based on their reactions) but most of the time it would not be so obvious. Reputations with towns/factions should also be there of course. Did you guys play Metro2033? It never drops dumb popups saying "you just lost 2 karma points" and it's a better game for it (I could complain about some of the weird things that affect your karma, though that's an universal problem: you are playing in the moral universe of the devs).

 

I would also like it very much if overall morality was a multidimensional thing, ie. not a single slider with ultimate good on one side and ultimate evil on the other, but rather at least two sliders that measure different things. Mass Effect was interesting in that it had two sliders arising from the spectrum (essentially goody-two-shoes vs a-hole) and hence they would only go up.

[ComradeGoby]

There should be no system jsut like in real life.

 

Unless this game has gods in the story then good and evil should just be your point of view.

 

I hate when games say something is evil when I wouldn't see it as evil.

 

 

Party influence systems are good though especailly if low influence can lead to things like betrayals and arguments.

[trulez]

There should be no system jsut like in real life.

I don't know what kind of life you live but where I come from your actions are judged by your peers, and past deeds are not forgotten. Telling someone off is likely to anger the recipient and temporarily/permanently lower my standing in his eyes, doing so repeatedly would most likely cause an altercation. That altercation would most certainly influence anyone in our presence at the time, either putting me in bad light or good light depending on if I was justified to tell him off to begin with.

 

Actions in real life have consequences, so why would they not have that in game.

Edited September 15, 2012 by trulez

[oldmanpaco]

Morality and Alignment are for chumps. All that matters is what you do and what others know (or believe) you to have done.

 

In a perfect system there would be flags for decisions you make or people you kill. Then when interacting with a NPC only the actions they care about would be checked. The actions would have to be weighted to the NPC as well. A crime lord isn't going to care as much about a murder as a priest. But the priest will care more about any charity work the player has done.

 

It's a simple two dimensional array holding all the flags points and outcomes. Not hard to program but difficult to balance I suppose.

[ComradeGoby]

There should be no system jsut like in real life.

I don't know what kind of life you live but where I come from your actions are judged by your peers, and past deeds are not forgotten. Telling someone off is likely to anger the recipient and temporarily/permanently lower my standing in his eyes, doing so repeatedly would most likely cause an altercation. That altercation would most certainly influence anyone in our presence at the time, either putting me in bad light or good light depending on if I was justified to tell him off to begin with.

 

Actions in real life have consequences, so why would they not have that in game.

 

Yes but if you do something with no observers then there is no cosmic force that makes a note of your alignment or judges your actions.

[Lohi]

So one action you take might anger one of your companions, please another, lower your status with a faction and raise your status with a quest NPC, this would make the choices much more severe and harder to micromanage (you can't keep everyone happy always).

Of course the action could also cause no consequences if no one knows about it. Too many games give everyone in the world the ability to instantly know all your actions. If you killed the guy in a basement and no one saw it, then the townspeople shouldn't be instantly angry at you when you leave the house. Maybe in a day or two after the body is found and you were the only stranger who passed through, then you could lose some reputation.

 

Also I really disliked systems that treated evil like a stereotype. It makes sense the the pure and holy priest is angry at me for stealing and leave sthe party. But it is ridiculous when a thief wants to leave the party because I wasn't evil enough.

[patboy12]

The morality system should not be something we see. It should be a background force that affects different aspects of the game based on our decisions. Morality isn't black and white like most games would have you believe. I like the system of Lawful Good to Chaotic Evil even though I think even that is too much of a label. I'd rather morality be handled as an unseen force.

[Giantevilhead]

I think it would be interesting to introduce a morality system based on emotions/temperament rather than good/evil or chaos/order.

 

So your character would develop reputations or temperaments based on whether you choose to be rash, calm, aggressive, passive, vengeful, forgiving, etc.

 

Plus since the magic system is based on a character's soul, the way a character behaves could have an effect on that.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Giantevilhead

[LadyCrimson]

I like when your actions have consequences within the game. Make someone too angry thru action or dialogue and they won't deal with you anymore, or having to choose sides in some faction/group conflict. And I do like it when having charisma or charm skills or even what I'm wearing (a uniform, badge) etc. can be influential in some way during a conversation/situation.

 

What I don't like, however, is when you're playing, say, a Thief, who successfully steals items when no one is looking ... and somehow everyone everywhere still automatically knows you've done wrong and your rep goes down or whatever. Or in terms of alignment in some games - the notion that everyone I meet will magically know what "alignment" I am upon first sight, before I've even opened my mouth, always feels a bit silly.