Magic System

[Delterius]

I don't get it. So the vancian interpretation I cited was actually for 4e and its somehow ridiculous but sensical?

 

And I confess, I don't know much about D&D, but how does that apply to non-magic users?

Ah, no, the comment on 4e was a seperate one for completeness' sake.

 

In D&D4e physical skills and magical spells are functionally identical powers on about a half-way point between the two former(ly) distinct categories. Lore-breaking cheap balancing at its "finest".

 

I googled some things and yeah, that's World of Warcraft kind of crazy.

[Hoverdog]

I never really liked Vancian magic, plus it works terrible with unlimited resting like it was in the IE games.

However, when properly implemented, this system can work very well.

My proposition (to be honest, it's taken almost straight from my favourite Earthdawn p&p system):

- spells are rather powerful (think a fireball moping up the floor, not magic missile that barely scratches)

- each spell costs fatigue.

- mages have vancian spell slots, just like in DnD, but more limited.

- mages can also cast raw spells, without the need for preparation. however, these spells cost more fatigue, have a chance of failure (the bigger the more powerful the spell) and a chance of mispel (spell backfires on the caster with severe consequences from health loss to permanent stat damage)

[Delterius]

@Hoverdog

 

I always thought the IE games were designed with limited resting in mind. As if their ambushes were problematic. That's how I played the games at least, and it improved the whole experience.

 

I'm thinking along those lines too. Limited spell casting with powerful magic, a 'memorization' system that merely enables reliability as opposed to completely gutting versatility. But I propose that a chance of mayhem for casting un-prepared spells should be contained to combat (stress on concentration and limited time).

[rf5111918]

Please, make magic system deep, complex, and powerful. Spells should not be limited summon and direct damage. When in battle mage running around, waiting couples recharge direct damage spells - it is a bad system. Should be defence spell (not -15% from damage!) versus different threats, spell like time stop, teleport and so on.

I think the best magic system was in BG2. Please do no worse.

Sorry fo my bad English.

 

Agree completely. The more spells, the better. I loved the troll battle in BG2 where you first had to knock them down/disable them and then burn them with fire and acid. That involved strategy.

Please, please don't make it like Skyrim, where you can basically go through the entire game with a boring fireball spell.

[Humanoid]

I think the general practice for those trolls was to just switch to any weapon that did a bonus point of fire or acid damage though, but either way I wouldn't really call it strategic or even tactical.

 

Anyhow, I personally recall playing BG2 making extremely sparing use of magic. Party composition was still fairly standard, but the way it worked out, I *never* used the rest function in a dungeon (or equivalent area), ever. If I ever played it again I probably wouldn't even think of restricting myself in that manner, but back then my playstyle was extremely cautious, exhaustive, and well, slow.

 

 

Anyway, if this post is all sorts of rambling, tangential stuff, it's mostly because I don't really have anything to say about the general subject - I anticipate that the way I'll be playing this game, most likely I will just try to get away with controlling my player character and letting the AI script do whatever it wants with my magic-wielding party members. Magic and music tend to be the least of my concerns with any game, really.

 

That said, I will make one exception where I do feel strongly detracts from a game: "Buff" magic. All this unfortunate tradition tends to be is to end up as a bit of a chore, all you're doing is managing uptime instead of making any interesting decisions. If there are to be any "buffs" implemented, and I sincerely hope not, at least making them passive abilities that are gained just by having a certain party member/class in your group.

[Seagloom]

I agree with what Delterius wrote on page one. Vancian magic is an old favorite because it adds a layer of resource management I enjoy. I'm not especially concerned about magic mechanics as I am about its application to role-playing, however. In the vast majority of CRPGs, magic is merely another weapon. You kill stuff with it. On occasion you buff a follower, debilitate a foe, or strip a defense. Once in a blue moon a game incorporates a spell into a one off dialogue or requires magic to circumvent an obstacle as part of a plot point.

 

However, there is often a massive disconnect between magic and story that is tiring. Take for example, Shandra dying in NWN2 and there being no option to resurrect her despite the multitude of means available to your party.

 

I want magic to feel, well *magical*. A living, breathing part of the world with impact and not merely another ranged attack/debuff option in combat. Arcanum dabbled this in a teensy bit with some of its spells, and it was wonderful.

 

Now realistically, I do not expect anything approaching my dream scenario with the budget Obsidian will be working with here. I'm only hoping that magic gets at least a fraction more attention to detail than it receives in so many other games.

[Nonek]

In one of my old pen and paper games we had an order of necromancers (the Whispering Ashen) who were solely interested in documenting and recording history from eye witness accounts, it grew out of an idle conversation about what ramifications certain spells would have realistically.

[generic.hybridity]

I'm guessing (from what little info we have) that the magic system will be quite unique seeing as the game is predicated on the souls of PC and their party. Different forms of magic would probably reflect the classes (battle magic for fighters e.t.c) and possibly play quite differently?

 

Resting (and save-scumming) in IE and NWN games did quite remove the challenge and flavour of the spell casting classes. Hopefully they create a system with interesting drawbacks and mechanics which still has that feeling of magic as opposed to merely pressing different buttons which turn on different kinds of flashing lights.

[rf5111918]

I think the general practice for those trolls was to just switch to any weapon that did a bonus point of fire or acid damage though, but either way I wouldn't really call it strategic or even tactical.

 

Anyhow, I personally recall playing BG2 making extremely sparing use of magic. Party composition was still fairly standard, but the way it worked out, I *never* used the rest function in a dungeon (or equivalent area), ever. If I ever played it again I probably wouldn't even think of restricting myself in that manner, but back then my playstyle was extremely cautious, exhaustive, and well, slow.

 

 

Anyway, if this post is all sorts of rambling, tangential stuff, it's mostly because I don't really have anything to say about the general subject - I anticipate that the way I'll be playing this game, most likely I will just try to get away with controlling my player character and letting the AI script do whatever it wants with my magic-wielding party members. Magic and music tend to be the least of my concerns with any game, really.

 

That said, I will make one exception where I do feel strongly detracts from a game: "Buff" magic. All this unfortunate tradition tends to be is to end up as a bit of a chore, all you're doing is managing uptime instead of making any interesting decisions. If there are to be any "buffs" implemented, and I sincerely hope not, at least making them passive abilities that are gained just by having a certain party member/class in your group.

 

I would call it tactical because nowadays some of the RPGs have devolved into people just hacking away at monsters. There isn't any real thought being placed on weaknesses and strengths. Whereas in Baldur's Gate 2, you had a much easier time battling the undead if you had "Turn Undead" and certain spells prepared ahead of time.

[OldRPG'sAreGood]

That one piece of concept art(the one with a female mage or shaman or something, but anyway, with a staff) made me wonder about the part that staffs will play. I wonder if they're limited charge items or just a way to channel ones magic or even the only way to channel magic.

[Darji]

The problem I have with magic is that its almost always totally broken and overpowered in the later game. I really haven't played any game where magic was not the way to destroy your enmies in one go.

 

Also since it seems that magic is bound to ones soul the magic should fit their personality or soul.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Darji

[Uomoz]

From what you all can hear in the video, magic won't be as commonly used as in BG or any other common high-magic games. I'm quite interested in this mid\low-magic possibility (there are also guns, so maybe magic is not the main actor in this lore after all).

[Delterius]

The problem I have with magic is that its almost always totally broken and overpowered in the later game. I really haven't played any game where magic was not the way to destroy your enmies in one go.

 

This is because it makes sense. Much better than have those who can manipulate reality and those who can't (and don't actively try to do so vai magical devices) on a same level.

[Shadowless]

I really hope they don't use a mana system, I want it to be Vancian style, but instead of being constantly forced to rest there should be a timer that allows any memorized spell to come back into memory after X amount of time, with stronger spells taking longer to come back, but you would of course have the option to simply rest to regain all of them. Depending on the timers that system also makes you think about using your weaker spells early to have a chance of being able to recast them instead of just blasting an enemy with your strongest spell first.

[Tamerlane]

So... put limitations on them?

 

There's no requirement that magic be overpowered. It often is, for various reasons, but that's not a thing that must be. That is just... not a thing. You can create conditions under which magic does not **** all over e'rything else.

[Re-Volt]

Regardless of the system, a magic user should always be able to use magic. They should never have to resort to crossbows or darts or anything like that.

[Shadowless]

So... put limitations on them?

 

There's no requirement that magic be overpowered. It often is, for various reasons, but that's not a thing that must be. That is just... not a thing. You can create conditions under which magic does not **** all over e'rything else.

 

If reffering to my idea, I don't see it as a limitation but rather an improvement on a good system. I imagine it being like PST BG IWD mages but with the possibility to not have to sleep after every battle or two, which is vastly superior to having a manapool IMO.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Shadowless

[Tamerlane]

Nah, sorry. We posted at the same time. I was referring to the post above yours.

[Volourn]

"Do away with mana, instead introduce cooldowns. The bigger the spell, the longer the cooldown."

 

Nah. All that does is that you spam your best spell at start of each battle and either win right away or you need to wait tilt hey combat. Hurts tatics.

 

'Vatican' magic is the best magic system found to date. It makes you think before spamming spells unlike the punkish mana system.

 

 

"Regardless of the system, a magic user should always be able to use magic. They should never have to resort to crossbows or darts or anything like that. "

 

Nah. Magic should have the ability to drain a spellcaster or be limited in how often one can use it between rests because you are using energy to create something out of nothing (mystical energy) so shouldn't be as easy to use/master/spam like common equipment or real world based skills. Espicially in a game like PE where magic is powered by one's soul.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Volourn

[Delterius]

Regardless of the system, a magic user should always be able to use magic. They should never have to resort to crossbows or darts or anything like that.

 

This creates issues.

 

If you find yourself using magic constantly, magic is nerfed. If you're conjuring lightning bolts constantly, then it will soon take multiple massive electrical discharges to hurt a normal being.

 

So... put limitations on them?

 

There's no requirement that magic be overpowered. It often is, for various reasons, but that's not a thing that must be. That is just... not a thing. You can create conditions under which magic does not **** all over e'rything else.

 

Quite frankly, what you said is true. There are entire genres where magic is underpowered and melee characters reign supreme.

 

But one important thing to note is that Magic does not mean Mages. A pure fighter transcends his mortality when wielding a Sword of Awesome +3.

 

Indeed, provided generous itemization, some D&D games allow melee characters to scale almost as exponentially as spellcasters.

 

But Magic is still rather powerful, and it does have a limitation to it: you're not likely to spam it as much as the pure fighter is going to swing the Sword of Awesome +3.

[Catamite]

The problem I have with magic is that its almost always totally broken and overpowered in the later game. I really haven't played any game where magic was not the way to destroy your enmies in one go.

 

Also since it seems that magic is bound to ones soul the magic should fit their personality or soul.

 

 

I agree with delterius, magic is the pathway to godhood, though if everyone has some sort of soulpower then maybe it will be different in Eternity.

 

 

Now I've always had a niggling annoyance with spell systems in D&D games- no matter how powerful and intelligent my Mage becomes, he is constricted to using his magic via predefined templates created by others? wtf?

(I know this system would be hard to implement and even harder to balance BUT)

 

An option for mages as they grow in power, to have the ability to break down the spells they know into component parts, and either adapt or create new spells from those parts. With a mana/fatigue system each component part would have a mana cost / multiplier.

• Casting Method: Vocal and Somatic would have negative % multipliers, so possible to remove them at cost.
  
• Total casting time
  
• Vector of the spell: missle (different sizes, magic missle, fireball etc), beam, glyph, cloud, instantaneous
  
• Duration:
  
• Target type: single, # within area, AOE.
  
• Magic type: elemental, toxic, acid, negative, disruption, sonic, etc
  
• Added effects: sleep, mind control, petrify, etc
  

 

This is just a rough sketch, but creating and using ones own spells would add great depth to those who would want to use it. I want an acid missile spell that causes sleep dammmit!

[Giantevilhead]

I think there should be greater synergy between different skills and game mechanics. For example, if you've ever seen the 2002 wuxia film "Hero," there's a master swordsman who develops new fighting techniques through the practice of calligraphy. So it would be really cool if mastery of other skills can affect a character's ability to cast magic and mastery of magic could affect mastery of other skills.

 

Also, I think it would be interesting if there was a temperament system rather than a morality system that could be used to affect many factors, magic among them. So instead of good vs. evil/order vs. chaos, you have impulsive vs. patient, vengeful vs. forgiving, prideful vs. modest, etc. And a character's temperament would affect how magic works. Certain spells could be easier or more difficult to cast/learn if you have a certain temperament or would have different effects based on temperament. Spells would affect you differently based on your temperament.

[damage99]

How about a magic system where the stronger spells require reagents similar to the old Ultima games. This allows casters to be the glass cannons they're supposed to be while not allowing you to just blast out your strongest spells over and over.

Edited September 16, 2012 by damage99

[Volourn]

Yes, material components can be fun like in D&D. Only use them for major spells when they make sense. ie. No need to have 'bat dung' for fire ball but needing a gem/globe for a wizard eye spell could be cool.

[Covnam]

I like the thought of tying magic to a characters soul and I think it would awesome of they could have spells change with the characters. So even if a few characters cast the same spell, each one would like different depending on their personality/beliefs. So if the pc can change alignments (good/evil etc) a spell cast by a good character would look bright and shiny but an evil character's same spell would look dark and foreboding. Now obviously this could add a lot of work depending on how the game engine handles spell effects, so having unimportant npcs use generic versions would likely be understandably required.

This would give the magic in the game more variety visually without having to have dozens and dozens of spells. Don't get me wrong, in a p&p game I love going through tons of spell lists, but in a game, I don't want to have 4 toolbars full of spells with more sitting in my spell book.

 

I agree that spell ranks shouldn't be used, in general they should just scale with level. Spells could also cap at different levels to give a range of options if needed depending on the spell casting resource system used to balance the game.

 

I definitely don't want to have to memorize or pre-select spells on my mage before heading out and into battle. I can understand it's use in D&D with hundreds of spells to choose from to balance the class, but since I doubt there'll be that many, I'd want some type of resource management system to balance the class. I'm not to picky about the specific system as long as it keeps magic use fun.