"Minimum reference to Al Qaeda"

[Guard Dog]

intelligent design.

 

Hahahahahahahaha.

 

Hah.

 

The fact that people think "intelligent design" has any more validity than young earth creationism means that the fundamentalist nuts have truly run a great propaganda campaign.

 

Intelligent design means exactly what it says. It is a theory that points to an intelligent being behind the creation and evolution of everything. I'm not sure why that is crazy, at least more than any other philosophy out there.

 

Because it proposes an untestable explanation for observable phenomena, and thus is directly contradictory to observable fact. I'd say anyone willing to ignore proven science in favor of "faith" is hopelessly disconnected from reality, yes - this includes *any* fundamentalist faith.

 

Not to perpetuate a debate doomed to go nowhere, but even the current knowlesge of the evolutionary process does not cover the leap from nothing to single cell orgsnisim and from single cell to complex organisims. I'm not going to throw the whole "God in the Gap" argument at you but perhaps it would be premature to rule anything out. Evolutionary science does a good job explaining how the current state of life came to be but it has nothing to offer on the origin of life.

 

Just because you don't believe it does not make it impossible. Of course it would be foolish for a religious person to deny that the process of evolution is taking place even now. And it is not a strech to suggest humans an apes have common ancestors, these critters were running around at some point there is no denying that. That does not in any way rule out the existence of God. As for the 6000 year old earth, I don't think I've ever in my lifetime hear anyone assert that to actually be true.

[Guard Dog]

Indeed. So what should be done with these miscreants?

 

Ideally, they simply shouldn't be listened to when they make a big stink about how science curriculum doesn't conform to their laughable worldview. There's obviously nothing can realistically can (or should) be done to remove creationists (and their unfortunate ability to vote) from American society.

Well at leat you don't want them rounded up and put in camps for political re-education as some around here have suggested, only half jokingly.

[Maria Caliban]

As for the 6000 year old earth, I don't think I've ever in my lifetime hear anyone assert that to actually be true.

 

I have. I have also heard that dinosaur bones are the work of Satan and that if humans evolved from monkeys then we should have records of modern monkeys giving birth to humans.

 

Do most Christians believe this? I would hope not.

[ShadySands]

I was full joking.

 

I'm a gun owning, dog loving veteran myself. I'm left leaning but not liberal enough to have that much guilt

[Guard Dog]

As for the 6000 year old earth, I don't think I've ever in my lifetime hear anyone assert that to actually be true.

 

I have. I have also heard that dinosaur bones are the work of Satan and that if humans evolved from monkeys then we should have records of modern monkeys giving birth to humans.

 

Do most Christians believe this? I would hope not.

Hmmmm... That monkey thing would explain some of the humans I've met.

 

I can't speak for all christians obviously but I would call myself one and no I'm quite sure dinosaurs were just animals and not one of them ever laid eyes on anything resembling a human. And while humans did not evolve from apes, apes and humans do come from a common ancestry. Heck just look at average height and weight of humans compared to 200 years ago. Now among men 6' is average, 200 years ago it was unusually tall. Evolution is still ongoing and not just in humans, in everything.

 

If you believe God created all life, and I do and not just here but everywhere (once again, just because we are unaware of it does not mean it does not exist), why is it so hard for some to accept that evolution is the engine and process of creation?

 

The Bible is a great refence book and it should be studied by anyone who wants to gain a pespective on life, judeo-christian philosophy and history. But it is not the end all be all source of knowledge and should not be treated as such. It should be taken with a little perspective because every word in it was written by men. Many of whom knew nothing of the world beyond their own field of vision and knew nothing of history except what they saw in their own lifetimes. Not the kind of folks I'd ask deep questions like "How did we get here?"

 

There are only two thing I know for certain about God, 1) He does exist 2) I'm not him.

[Guard Dog]

I was full joking.

 

I'm a gun owning, dog loving veteran myself. I'm left leaning but not liberal enough to have that much guilt

I was not referring to you

 

I think it was Gorgon, Pop, mkreu and others who wanted to bring back the days of feeding us to lions.

[Oblarg]

Not to perpetuate a debate doomed to go nowhere, but even the current knowlesge of the evolutionary process does not cover the leap from nothing to single cell orgsnisim and from single cell to complex organisims. I'm not going to throw the whole "God in the Gap" argument at you but perhaps it would be premature to rule anything out. Evolutionary science does a good job explaining how the current state of life came to be but it has nothing to offer on the origin of life.

 

Just because you don't believe it does not make it impossible. Of course it would be foolish for a religious person to deny that the process of evolution is taking place even now. And it is not a strech to suggest humans an apes have common ancestors, these critters were running around at some point there is no denying that. That does not in any way rule out the existence of God. As for the 6000 year old earth, I don't think I've ever in my lifetime hear anyone assert that to actually be true.

 

Sure, abiogenesis is something we don't know that much about (though there is quite a bit of work being done on proposing and testing possible ways in which it could have happened), but that does not make "god did it" a viable explanation when there is literally no physical evidence to support that view. If we were to propose "god" as an explanation for every as-yet unexplained area in science, we'd be at an intellectual dead-end. Still, this is beside the point.

 

If you've never truly encountered a young earth creationist, I envy you. They're the ideological equivalent of brick walls.

 

I would like you to explain how you know "for certain" that there is a god when by definition his existence cannot be proved through observable evidence?

Edited September 15, 2011 by Oblarg

[Hurlshort]

I would like you to explain how you know "for certain" that there is a god when by definition his existence cannot be proved through observable evidence?

 

If there was observable evidence, it wouldn't be called faith. As for explaining it, you might as well ask someone to explain love.

[Gorgon]

Intelligent design is the logical conclusion of believing in god surely, nothing wrong here. Just don't pretend it's science, or try to jam it down school children's throats.

[Hell Kitty]

I believe in all the gods. When I die they will battle it out for the right to my eternal soul. It's gonna be sweet.

[Walsingham]

I hate to put the kaibosh on a comparatively civil debate, but what has this to do with the OP?

[Nepenthe]

As for the 6000 year old earth, I don't think I've ever in my lifetime hear anyone assert that to actually be true.

 

I have. I have also heard that dinosaur bones are the work of Satan and that if humans evolved from monkeys then we should have records of modern monkeys giving birth to humans.

 

Do most Christians believe this? I would hope not.

Not sure about monkeys giving birth to humans, but I doubt nobody who's ever been to boot camp won't have seen results of the opposite.

[Gorgon]

People who advance a creationalist agenda politically are fundamentalists, but god and science were never mutually exclusive. Albert Einstein never thought so. If you interpret the bibile literally you run into all sorts of problems. There is a lot in there that doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

The solution is not to interpret the bible literally, which works just fine for most people.

[HoonDing]

Interpreting the Bible literally leads to believing in geocentrism and a flat earth, I can't believe even creationists would stoop that low.

 

On the other hand, a Muslim colleague of mine (otherwise a very intelligent man) takes the Qu'ran literally. Not to mention in general muslim children around here are encouraged by the imam to reject the "nonsense" they learn at school, because everything there is to know is in the Qu'ran.

 

At least the Roman Catholic Church has officially accepted the theory of evolution; I'm pretty sure the various protestant churches have as well.

Edited September 15, 2011 by virumor

[Walsingham]

I think it's only fair to point out that I know plenty of perfect bloody fools who believe in evolution...

[Nepenthe]

I think it's only fair to point out that I know plenty of perfect bloody fools who believe in evolution...

[HoonDing]

I think it's only fair to point out that I know plenty of perfect bloody fools who believe in evolution...

Do they also believe in gravity?

[Junai]

I think it's only fair to point out that I know plenty of perfect bloody fools who believe in evolution...

Do they also believe in gravity?

These guys do.

 

!

 

History in the making.

 

J.

[Guard Dog]

I hate to put the kaibosh on a comparatively civil debate, but what has this to do with the OP?

Nothing what so ever. But sorry Wals, had I not sidetracked this thread twice it would be on the bottom of page two now. It was going nowhere my friend. Al Qaeda is harmless, probably did not do 9-11 anyway, we should all just move on and forget the whole thing ever happened. Nothing to see here. At least thats what I hear and read in the news anyway.

[Malcador]

Hmm, you all talking about religion is more interesting than terrorism.

[Tale]

Hmm, you all talking about religion is more interesting than terrorism.

Religion causes Chic-Fil-A to be closed on Sundays. Point against religion.

 

Because Sunday is the day I want it most.

[Walsingham]

I hate to put the kaibosh on a comparatively civil debate, but what has this to do with the OP?

Nothing what so ever. But sorry Wals, had I not sidetracked this thread twice it would be on the bottom of page two now. It was going nowhere my friend. Al Qaeda is harmless, probably did not do 9-11 anyway, we should all just move on and forget the whole thing ever happened. Nothing to see here. At least thats what I hear and read in the news anyway.

 

 

My eyes got bigger and bigger as I read that, until I got to the last sentence.

[Gfted1]

I wish we had Chic-Fil-A's around here.

[213374U]

Evolutionary science does a good job explaining how the current state of life came to be

Since there's no actual evolution thread, I'm just going to take the chance and start off this.

 

Not sure how much people in these boards know about the inner workings -as far as cutting edge science goes, anyway- of evolution, but from what I've read, there's still a lot of gaps to fill. Much as with climate modeling, it's an incredibly difficult and complex problem, and calling it "proven science" can be both premature and misleading.

 

http://www.arn.org/docs/odesign/od172/schutz172.htm (fun read, undoubtedly lacking sufficient rigour and likely already debunked, but still)

[Walsingham]

I don't just believe in evolution as an explanation of species development, but as a powerful paradigm for understanding other phenomena, such as the spread of culture and ideas.

 

However, as Numbers says, it is far from 'proven' as such. It's not mental to disbelieve it. But I would say it is mental to assert that there is a rational competitive superiority in theories like intelligent design over evolution. I also think that if the truth is something other than evolution it is going to struggle unless it incoporates large parts of evolutionary theory. Thee are just too many good bits, such as apparent evolutionary trends in fossil records, to account for.

 

I also find it ferociously ironic that anyone 'believes' in evolution at all. It's not a faith. Evolution, like all science, is a component of well organised _doubt_.