The Iraq war was a disgrace, but sometimes we forget just how much

[Volourn]

"Saddam Hussein was also an aggressor that invaded a country in 1991."

 

He was invading coutnries before that. His war with Iran was absolutely devasting to Iraq.

 

There's a reason why Iraq was attacked and countries like Iran and even NK haven't been despite them being harassed about their 'evil' ways....

[Thorton_AP]

I was referring to the specific difference between the 1991 Gulf War and the more recent war in Iraq though.

[obyknven]

Baghdad before American invasion

Baghdad after American invasion.

[Volourn]

l0l propaganda is so nice lol

[Nepenthe]

Yeah, looks like they're letting the girls into school now

[Gfted1]

Must be scraping the bottom of the idea barrel to necro an almost three year old thread to whine butthurt about a war that's over.

[HoonDing]

Slow day at work for oby.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Must be scraping the bottom of the idea barrel to necro an almost three year old thread to whine butthurt about a war that's over.

I don't think oby's barrel has a bottom.

[BruceVC]

Most people know I am pro-western and support almost all the military decisions that the West makes but I have to say the invasion of Iraq was a real disaster and completely unnecessary. And to be honest its Iraq that is suffering the most in there new political and uncertain future.

 

I have been thinking hard about some sort of benefit around the Iraq war and its difficult but I will say this. The invasion of Iraq and the subsequent aftermath led to a new political reality in the USA. The Neo-cons ideology was swept away and a new era in American politics came to be, the era where a liberal, black man can be the leader of the most powerful country in the world. We have seen a real and positive paradigm shift in the way the American foreign policy operates, well its positive in most cases.( the lack of action is Syria is an example of the failure)

I remember in 2005 watching a Neo-Con politician saying " the UN was dead and a redundant organisation". The arrogance of the likes of **** Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld use to astound me. There view was "its the American way or no way". The USA has learnt from this and has made several changes. They don't operate militarily in a unilateral fashion unless directly threatened and gone are the hyperbolic statements like " the axis of evil" that' use to incite many countries

 

This is a good thing for all people who believe in Western culture and ideology as we need the USA to lead the way in global affairs in a way that is reasonable and consolatory. So I feel terrible for the state of Iraq but the changes in the American political machinery I believe benefit the world and its future stability and economic growth

[Volourn]

L0L

[BruceVC]

L0L

 

That's a good point Volo, and intellectually that's probably the only contribution you can make towards this discussion. But well done for trying

[Malcador]

So I feel terrible for the state of Iraq but the changes in the American political machinery I believe benefit the world and its future stability and economic growth

What changes ?

[Guard Dog]

I don't know about that Bruce. The liberal black man might well give rise to the libertarian right in the US and if it does you will see the US become much less interventionist in foreign policy. I don't know if that is a good thing to you but I think it is absolutely necessary.

 

I've always wondered what the real reason for the Iraq invasion was. I've often speculated that is was to secure a stable platform on Iran's western border to compliment Afghanistan to the east. That was if war with Iran ever became needed they would be surrounded by enemies. That kind of tactical disadvantage might have been enough to keep them in line without fighting. But if that was the objective I'd say it was pretty well botched. But then again I think I might be giving the Bush admin too much credit. I don't think they were capable of that level of thinking.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Guard Dog

[Hurlshort]

Well the US as a whole has always been pretty bad at geography, and maybe they just figured they were already in the neighborhood with Afghanistan, so they might as well get rid of Iraq.  

[ShadySands]

Well the US as a whole has always been pretty bad at geography, and maybe they just figured they were already in the neighborhood with Afghanistan, so they might as well get rid of Iraq.  

 

Hey! That's not true

 

I know exactly where Iraq is

 

Here see

[Walsingham]

I note that no-one has ventured anything beyond a single undated photograph with which to summarise Iraq's current state of affairs.

 

[ShadySands]

Sunni Militants Drive Iraqi Army Out of Mosul

 

 

BAGHDAD — Iraqi army soldiers abandoned their weapons and fled the northern Iraqi city of Mosul on Tuesday, as Sunni militants freed hundreds of prisoners and seized military bases, police stations, banks, the airport and the provincial governor’s headquarters. The attacks widened the Sunni insurgency in Iraq and were among the most audacious assaults on the government since the American military withdrawal more than two years ago.

 

The rout in Mosul, the second-largest Iraqi city after Baghdad and an important center of the country’s petroleum industry, was breathtaking in its speed and appeared to take government officials by surprise, not to mention residents of the city and surrounding Nineveh Province. A major humiliation for the government forces in Iraq’s Sunni-dominated areas, the defeat also reflected the stamina of the Sunni insurgency, which has been growing with the war in neighboring Syria.

[Leferd]

Yeah. I had to look at Wikipedia to remind myself what and where an Iraq is. In the meantime, stock market is at near record highs!

[Leferd]

I note that no-one has ventured anything beyond a single undated photograph with which to summarise Iraq's current state of affairs.

 

That picture reminded me of an old photo from Kabul, Afghanistan taken in the 70's of Young women in a public park wearing miniskirts. Also, in the 80's Indonesian women wore very western fashions, but in the 90's, headscarves became more and more prevalent amongst even the mainstream.

 

All have nothing to do with an American invasion.

 

Wait, what happened in Afghanistan in the 70's? Soviet Union something or another?

Edited June 10, 2014 by Leferd

[Elerond]

Wait, what happened in Afghanistan in the 70's? Soviet Union something or another?

Something much more complicated that any one country/faction/something similar could be blamed for it alone.

[Bryy]

Although I have to question the Chinese founder's choice of pseudonym... they call him 'Deep Throat'.

You wrote all that and you end it with "but I really have no freaking idea what I'm talking about".

 

Wow.

[Leferd]

 

Wait, what happened in Afghanistan in the 70's? Soviet Union something or another?

Something much more complicated that any one country/faction/something similar could be blamed for it alone.

Which was why I made the same essential statement as Oby, only substituting the Soviet Union with and with sarcasm.

[ShadySands]

I knew I should have just made a new Iraq thread. Damn me and my damn lazy necroposting

[BruceVC]

The rise of ISIS in Iraq and Syria is something I raised a while ago

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64935-the-rise-of-isis/?hl=isis

 

In summary parts of the Sunni community in Iraq have felt marginalized by the Shia dominated current Iraqi government. This has lead to them aligning with more fundamentalist Sunni groups like Al-Qaeda and now you have the creation of ISIS which is destabilizing Iraq and weakening the Syrian rebels in there campaign against Assad

 

We should care as a politically tumultuous Middle East is not good for any country in the world because of the impact to oil production and obviously the humanitarian issues that come with civil wars

 

Also there is the reality that if the West hadn't invaded Iraq we wouldn't have the likes of ISIS in existence at all so there is some level of responsibility that some Western countries need to recognise

[Meshugger]

The west are of course at fault for creating the power vacuum that exists now in the region.

 

However, however the people themselves there are to be blamed as well. Anti-democratic, anti-modern and reactionary guerillas do not appear out thin air. They come from local homes, from local businesses with local values. Anything else would be like blaming the British for the American Civil War.