Challenging/frustrating games

[taviow]

This topic was inspired by the fact that I've been playing through Far Cry on realistic for the past couple of weeks (I'm on chapter 9 out of 20 right now), and it is considered a frustrating game by most because it often delivers ambushes that rely on memorization and replay rather than stealth or skill.

 

But I've been thinking about this and from the games I've played so far, I've never seen a "challenging" game in which you didn't rely on memorization and/or knowledge of what's ahead of you. In the end, you always succeed because you knew exactly what to expect, and had time to properly prepare for it.

 

System Shock 2 is widely considered a challenging game (I also love it very much, don't flame me), but if you don't pull off a correct character build, you are eventually going to be harshly punished for it, and the game might just become unplayable. The first time through can be brutal. Then why is it not a frustrating game? What makes it challenging instead? When you go through it for the 2nd time, you only do well because you knew what to expect from the game. Or you just die so much at some point you end up learning precisely how to go through that particular section, but again only because you knew exactly what you were up against.

 

So my question is, why are some games regarded as "challenging" and others as "frustrating", when you always end up succeeding mostly because you know what's ahead of you? Where's the line that separates challenging games from frustrating ones?

[Wrath of Dagon]

Widely spaced checkpoints.

[Enoch]

"Challenging" or "Frustrating" determined by:

 

1) How much fun the gameplay is.

2) How "fair" the fail-states that the game puts the player through feel.

3) Other characteristics of the game that serve to hold the player's interest or create a positive or negative attitude towards it. (Atmosphere, art, music/sound, writing, humor, character progression, etc.)

4) General nature of the player (e.g., seeking challenge or seeking relaxation) and how much free time he/she has to devote to achieving whatever goal is stymying his/her progress.

[taviow]

Just want to add that I do understand exactly why Far Cry is frustrating. I'm sure it's way past the line. It's just the only game I can think of right now to make the point.

[Monte Carlo]

With RPGs it's often down to character builds --- i.e. this time I'm going to play a stealthy character, or a tank etc.

 

With FPS it might be different weapon types, or using a certain vehicle, or stealth versus heavy weps.

 

With RTS / Tactics it might be this time I'm not going to use tanks, why not try infantry swarms...

 

Etc.

 

A good game that allows you to re-play it using different character types or methods that aren't too easy is challenging and fun. One that relies on meta-knowledge or a certain key 'Win' button is frustrating.

[Kaftan Barlast]

You also have the thing with "fake" vs. real difficulty http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty

[unskilled-]

Crysis on Delta difficulty is amazingly difficult. Super AI drones that speak korean (so you won't know if they've tossed a nade unless you understand korean!) and will actively swarm your position from multiple angles to best try and flush you out from a good hiding position. If the game didn't give you the stealth function it would be down-right impossible!

 

And thats not even talking about the second part of the game.. aaargh.

[Hurlshort]

I play everything on easy. Takes away the frustration aspect and, wouldn't you know it, the games are still enjoyable.

[Gorth]

Fighting something that has a gazillion hp, immune to everything and kills you when it hits you is frustrating. Tests of patience are rarely fun. Fighting something with a clever AI, even if it has the benefit of prepared positions, ambush etc. is way more fun. You feel like you are fighting your way out of a situation, not getting punished by a designers laziness.

 

Speaking of AI, the best one I've ever run across was in an old Commodore Amiga shareware game, Mech Warrior, which made excellent use of terrain, weapon choice (range/damage type/heat) etc. often putting up a convincing fight.

[GreasyDogMeat]

Just want to add that I do understand exactly why Far Cry is frustrating. I'm sure it's way past the line. It's just the only game I can think of right now to make the point.

There is a mod for Far Cry that allows you to save any time you want. This completely changed how I felt about the game (for the better).

[213374U]

Fighting something that has a gazillion hp, immune to everything and kills you when it hits you is frustrating. Tests of patience are rarely fun. Fighting something with a clever AI, even if it has the benefit of prepared positions, ambush etc. is way more fun. You feel like you are fighting your way out of a situation, not getting punished by a designers laziness.

Yeah. Then you find you can just arm everyone with bows and just have the guy with the boots of speed draw aggro while the mob in question gets pumped full of arrows. Then the feeling goes from frustration to a sense of vacuity and pointlessness.

 

Numbersperson's Rule of Thumb: Good AI -> challenging games. Bad AI -> boring and/or frustrating games.

[Niten_Ryu]

I usually play everything on hardest difficulty but lately since almost all games have been consolized (meaning they are designed primarely for console customers and PC port is about the same), I'm not sure if there's much point. All the challenges come from "fake difficulty" (thanks TVtrope) and very rarely from well designed game and combat mechanics or cleaver AI and encounter balance. For example in lastest Alpha Protocol run I didn't have to upgrade my weapons or armor at all or use any money other then for bullets and granades. Sometimes combat is so poor compared to rest of the game (like in Arcanum, Alpha Protocol, Torment) that it might be better just to turn difficulty to the easiest and just enjoy the story. I have to work on that, since old habits are hard to break.

 

I really dislike rubberbanding (meaning AI get speed increase based on how good / fast you drive and thus never be far behind you) in racing games, unlimited resources for AI in RT or TB strategy games when you have start with broken spoon and US debt style economy. Difficulty become so frontloaded that beginning is extremely hard but later become a joke. Far Cry was notorious with it's use of checkpoints (sometimes be hour a part and sometimes 2 times a minute) and the fact that enemies use pinpoint accuracy while ignoring the (graphical effect only) undergrowth. It leads to situations where you think you're complitely hidden and can't even see the enemy, while it frags you without a problem.

[Nepenthe]

I play everything on easy. Takes away the frustration aspect and, wouldn't you know it, the games are still enjoyable.

 

Mostly this. I played the Rogue Spears etc. back in the day, so I've had enough reloading to last me a lifetime. I also have a lot less time to game than I'd like, so I like to keep things progressing when I have those 1h+ stretches available.

 

Mass Effect 2 on Insanity posed some challenge, and it didn't mostly feel of the "fake" kind (though armor on Husks was kind of meanspirited)

[Oner]

Speaking of difficulty, where did the Realistic setting disappear to? I want it back!

[Mamoulian War]

I play only on hardest difficulty... the only game in last 10 years that i was unable to finnish without trouble on 1st playthrough was The Witcher...

 

The difference between challenging and frustrating is mostly the AI... (let's take FPS as an example) if the hardest difficulty is made the way, that your opponenst instakill you with headshot before you notice him, it's failed frustrating AI... If the hardest difficulty is made the way like it was in Doom 3, it's challenging... Yes i know that Doom 3 was for most people sucky game, because they had to use flashlight - lol at them - but the AI of monsters was one of the best i've ever seen in a game, and i realy hope, they will use the same or enhanced for Rage...

[Calax]

Probably some of the most frustrating/hardest games i've played have been those where either you've got fake difficulty, or a section where you don't have enough checkpoints and thus end up getting through most of the area, only to collapse because that one guy/pit/obstacle before the boss pops up and bodyslams you out the window.

[Morgoth]

Challenging is when you fail at something but you know you did something wrong and if you put more effort into it you will succeed.

 

Frustrating is when you fail at something but you know it's only because the game is badly designed.

 

Edit: An example of a very challenging game would be Demon's Souls. If you pay attention and use half your brain you can eventually beat the game.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Morgoth

[Oner]

Challenging is when you fail at something but you know you did something wrong and if you put more effort into it you will succeed.

 

Frustrating is when you fail at something but you know it's only because the game is badly designed.

 

Edit: An example of a very challenging game would be Demon's Souls. If you pay attention and use half your brain you can eventually beat the game.

The only real problem with this definition is that some people always "know" for a fact that it's in fact the game that's broken.

[Mamoulian War]

Challenging is when you fail at something but you know you did something wrong and if you put more effort into it you will succeed.

 

Frustrating is when you fail at something but you know it's only because the game is badly designed.

 

Edit: An example of a very challenging game would be Demon's Souls. If you pay attention and use half your brain you can eventually beat the game.

The only real problem with this definition is that some people always "know" for a fact that it's in fact the game that's broken.

 

+1 But yes Morgoth gave very good explanation and a perfect example of a challenging game Demon's Soul Black Edition will be soon comming to my humble PS3, and i already can't wait to get finaly humiliated by a computer game \o/

[Raithe]

Frustrating can be a game that has you playing through 10-15 minutes of gameplay that you can do in your sleep, throws in a cinematic, then immediately has a section of gameplay that is difficult... And everytime you fail and need to reload you have to play through the same 10-15 minutes of easy and wait through the cinematic before you can get to the "challenging" bit you're having issues with....

 

When it happens a handful of times in a row.. it can turn an otherwise good game into a feeling of serious annoyance/frustration... especially when it turns out that the "challenging" gameplay turns out to be about 40 seconds of specific activity....but you didn't pick that out until the 5th attempt...

[GhostofAnakin]

I play everything on easy. Takes away the frustration aspect and, wouldn't you know it, the games are still enjoyable.

 

I do this for my first play through. I'm more of a "story" guy than a "get excitement from combat" type of guy, so I'd rather see first how the story plays out than worry about being stuck at the first boss fight for three days and be unable to advance the story.

[unskilled-]

I play everything on easy. Takes away the frustration aspect and, wouldn't you know it, the games are still enjoyable.

 

I do this for my first play through. I'm more of a "story" guy than a "get excitement from combat" type of guy, so I'd rather see first how the story plays out than worry about being stuck at the first boss fight for three days and be unable to advance the story.

 

I suppose I'm the kind of guy who wants my cake and being able to eat it too!

 

But, uh.. why play any game on easy? That just takes away from the glory of beating an incredibly tough game and then basking in your accomplishment as the ending cinematics roll. The minute I finish MW2 on Veteran Difficulty.. I'll celebrate by getting smashed, or something...

[Hurlshort]

The glory of beating a tough boss is lessened when my wife and kids just roll their eyes at all my awesome exploits.

[Nemo0071]

If you're not a newbie in the genre the game belongs to, playing in normal/medium difficulty is generally a safe bet for your first playthrough. Not stupidly easy, not stupidly hard. Usually.

 

Like everyone said, AI is the biggest concern regarding challenging/frustrating. But even with a decent AI it's quite possible to make the game less enjoyable in higher difficulties.

 

I'll use Crysis as an example:

I tried it in normal/whatever for a little while, then started over in hardest difficulty (Delta, I guess) and finished it. Sometimes it was a bit tough, sometimes extremely ruthless, and sometimes outright boring (cloak, prone, decloak, shoot guy in the head; repeat for a whole squad). The AI was great, and enemies weren't tanks, just normal guys. I was a normal human too. With a special suit. With a quickly depleting battery.

 

If there was a difficulty option with the exact same sense of realism (solid AI, the Koreans speak Korean and you have no idea what they're planning, humans actually die when you shoot them in the head, etc.) but with a more powerful suit (it wasn't exactly a SupahSuit in Delta like you were told), then I'd go for it.

 

 

Edit: Of course it doesn't go for every game. Obviously, this is a "one man against a whole f***ing army" scenario. The reasoning behind this is "you got the suit, you got the power" but unfortunately, I didn't have the latter.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Nemo0071

[Nepenthe]

The glory of beating a tough boss is lessened when my wife and kids just roll their eyes at all my awesome exploits.

 

Or by initially just having a maximum of 1-2 hours to play /day due to work, social circle and gf/fiancee/wife, even without the kids. When even the shortest RPG starts stretching out into months just due to lack of time, you tend to be unwilling to spend a night or two grinding the same spot.

 

If I hadn't been bedridden for December, I'm not sure I could've finished DAO even once. I played that on normal, though.