The Conspiracy Against Alpha Protocol

[Hassat Hunter]

Disable, yes.

 

However it would also wipe data incase of computers and stuff, UNLESS you spend a skillpoint somewhere. It should be fine for doors and stuff.

Why wouldn't it for you?

 

EDIT: Also, seriously? You didn't read up all skills? Come on, this is an RPG... what the hell dude?

Edited June 18, 2010 by Hassat Hunter

[Fallen Ghost]

Disable, yes.

 

However it would also wipe data incase of computers and stuff, UNLESS you spend a skillpoint somewhere. It should be fine for doors and stuff.

Why wouldn't it for you?

 

EDIT: Also, seriously? You didn't read up all skills? Come on, this is an RPG... what the hell dude?

NOT without a point in sabotage.....you can detonate a million EMPs right in front of a door critical to mission advancement all day and it will NOT open if you have 0 points in Sabotage. You clearly did not know this either at the time of the post I'm quoting so you obviously did not read the same thing I'm being blamed for not reading. Sooo....."Also, seriously? You didn't read up all skills? Come on, this is an RPG... what the hell dude?"

Edited June 18, 2010 by Fallen Ghost

[Oner]

You clearly did not know this either at the time of the post I'm quoting so you obviously did not read the same thing I'm being blamed for not reading. Sooo....."Also, seriously? You didn't read up all skills? Come on, this is an RPG... what the hell dude?"

So it's his own fault if he doesn't read up on stuff?

So glad you agree.

[Fallen Ghost]

You clearly did not know this either at the time of the post I'm quoting so you obviously did not read the same thing I'm being blamed for not reading. Sooo....."Also, seriously? You didn't read up all skills? Come on, this is an RPG... what the hell dude?"

So it's his own fault if he doesn't read up on stuff?

So glad you agree.

 

No I simply thought it was appropriate that he hold himself up to his own standards which is why I just put his quote back at him. I have played RPGs almost exclusively for the past 7 years with rare exceptions and I have never ran into the problem of being stuck because I didn't check out a skill the tutorial said I wouldn't need anyway.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Fallen Ghost

[Hassat Hunter]

I guess it could make a difference between bashable doors (EMPable without skill) and unbashable doors (need skill).

 

Exactly WHAT lock do you try to EMP?

(Also note you still need to bash in the door you just unlocked... you did that?)

[Fallen Ghost]

I guess it could make a difference between bashable doors (EMPable without skill) and unbashable doors (need skill).

 

Exactly WHAT lock do you try to EMP?

(Also note you still need to bash in the door you just unlocked... you did that?)

 

I did not have the B button option at all.....that is only there in two instances....to use an EMP if you have one AND the skill or to bash the door in....it wasn't there. At any rate NO I have never needed to bash a door I unlocked...EVER...because upon unlocking a door(either with EMP, lockpick or bypass) the doors always opened themselves with one exception in Saudi Arabia because when opened the door triggered a cutscene so that was the ONLY door in the whole game that needed to be opened once unlocked.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Fallen Ghost

[Hassat Hunter]

B button? I guess that is activate (E on PC?)

 

If so, you might notice, even with the skill and EMP there is no such thing either in the tutorial door. You have to throw the nade, and have it do the work...

EDIT: Which had me a little confused the second game, since I was so used to using activation on doors instead...

Edited June 19, 2010 by Hassat Hunter

[WorstUsernameEver]

Actually I agree with Fallen Ghost's complaint.

Granted, I noticed it pretty quickly, but the tutorial still should mention that some things require skill points.

If you tell the player 'you can do this and this and this' and then TAKE OUT those options without even telling him during the first mission well... it's a rather badly designed tutorial, no matter how you want to see it.

Yeah, you can argue that you could read the manual etc.. but even Obsidian knows pretty well that the majority of the player doesn't (not to mention that AP's manual contains so little information it's almost useless), so the tutorial should have been much more informative.

[pmp10]

Disable, yes.

 

However it would also wipe data incase of computers and stuff, UNLESS you spend a skillpoint somewhere. It should be fine for doors and stuff.

Why wouldn't it for you?

 

EDIT: Also, seriously? You didn't read up all skills? Come on, this is an RPG... what the hell dude?

NOT without a point in sabotage.....you can detonate a million EMPs right in front of a door critical to mission advancement all day and it will NOT open if you have 0 points in Sabotage.

You mean the door in Taipei subway?

I seem to remember that I couldn't get it to open by tossing grenades even when I had plenty of points in sabotage.

It may be a bug but if so it's a game breaking one.

[C2B]

Actually I agree with Fallen Ghost's complaint.

Granted, I noticed it pretty quickly, but the tutorial still should mention that some things require skill points.

If you tell the player 'you can do this and this and this' and then TAKE OUT those options without even telling him during the first mission well... it's a rather badly designed tutorial, no matter how you want to see it.

Yeah, you can argue that you could read the manual etc.. but even Obsidian knows pretty well that the majority of the player doesn't (not to mention that AP's manual contains so little information it's almost useless), so the tutorial should have been much more informative.

 

Which options are taken out exactly? I could do all the things in the tutorial after the tutorial and I was a recruit.

 

Nothings taken out.

 

Also, it IS a silly complaint. Nobody either gives you a tutorial for every magic spell in a rpg or skill. Well, except maybe Square. But people complain about that too.

 

 

Also, not reading Manuals is also a,.... well either a pirate complaint or a lazy one.

Edited June 19, 2010 by C2B

[Serrano]

Also, not reading Manuals is also a,.... well either a pirate complaint or a lazy one.

 

Which catagory do steam users fall under?

[WorstUsernameEver]

Which options are taken out exactly? I could do all the things in the tutorial after the tutorial and I was a recruit.

 

Nothings taken out.

 

Also, it IS a silly complaint. Nobody either gives you a tutorial for every magic spell in a rpg or skill. Well, except maybe Square. But people complain about that too.

 

 

Also, not reading Manuals is also a,.... well either a pirate complaint or a lazy one.

 

Only a naive designer would design his game assuming that gamers indeed read manuals. A lazy complaint? Maybe. Doesn't really change the fact that most gamers don't read manuals, otherwise we wouldn't even have tutorials in the first place.

Heck, I think one of the designers that worked on Alpha Protocol mentioned that at a presentation, so yeah, this strikes me as a pretty stupid choice.

 

As for things you can do from the tutorial but can't (without a skill point in Sabotage at least) haven't we already mentioned that? Do I need to repeat to you that if you have 0 points in sabotage you can't disable terminals and doors with an EMP?

[Oner]

Only a naive designer would design his game assuming that gamers indeed read manuals. A lazy complaint? Maybe. Doesn't really change the fact that most gamers don't read manuals, otherwise we wouldn't even have tutorials in the first place.

Heck, I think one of the designers that worked on Alpha Protocol mentioned that at a presentation, so yeah, this strikes me as a pretty stupid choice.

Well, I have played games were the game told me about a trick, but I had no chance to practice it and pulling it off in "live" circumstances was hard.

 

Regardless, not reading the manual is one thing, but there are skill descriptions in-game and not reading what they do, in an RPG is... dumb.

[C2B]

Which options are taken out exactly? I could do all the things in the tutorial after the tutorial and I was a recruit.

 

Nothings taken out.

 

Also, it IS a silly complaint. Nobody either gives you a tutorial for every magic spell in a rpg or skill. Well, except maybe Square. But people complain about that too.

 

 

Also, not reading Manuals is also a,.... well either a pirate complaint or a lazy one.

 

Only a naive designer would design his game assuming that gamers indeed read manuals. A lazy complaint? Maybe. Doesn't really change the fact that most gamers don't read manuals, otherwise we wouldn't even have tutorials in the first place.

Heck, I think one of the designers that worked on Alpha Protocol mentioned that at a presentation, so yeah, this strikes me as a pretty stupid choice.

 

As for things you can do from the tutorial but can't (without a skill point in Sabotage at least) haven't we already mentioned that? Do I need to repeat to you that if you have 0 points in sabotage you can't disable terminals and doors with an EMP?

 

Uhmm, I don't remember that they did. Well, not in such a case.

 

Also, you don't in the tutorial either. You throw the emp in the tutorial.

 

The point in the sabotage skill just enables you to make this a passive ability. Meaning you don't have to throw/place it anymore and you can just use a button.

[Grayvern]

If you read many reviewers they do give the game a fair hearing. If you love videogames it's a dissapointment that the game does not do more to further CRPG design, especially given the lineage of the parent company.

 

It does engender disbelief when a top agent can't shoot strait. There are any number of ways the weapon proficiency skills could have been designed to require you to spend points in them with a combat focused character while still retaining accuracy. Or even taken out altogether and replaced with other combat skills relating to all weapons.

 

Please bear in mind this is my only complaint and keep in mind my favourite ever shooter is Stalker Call of Pripyat. So its not the laser tag COD arcade approach I want.

 

And if you look at reviews only the Eurogamer review has bad things to say about the story, and the choice element in it, which is after all the main point of a CRPG. Jeff Gerstmann of Giant bomb gave it 3 out of 5 stars but he is going to play it again, which is a big thing for a busy reviewer to do. My point being honest critique is different from conspiracy.

 

Finally you cannot have your cake and eat it, as a game maker you can present your game in a third or first person action perspective to help drive sales and uptake, but you cannot then justify design elements based solely in Isometric CRPG design circa 1999.

[edgarcuk]

If you read many reviewers they do give the game a fair hearing. If you love videogames it's a dissapointment that the game does not do more to further CRPG design, especially given the lineage of the parent company.

 

It does engender disbelief when a top agent can't shoot strait. There are any number of ways the weapon proficiency skills could have been designed to require you to spend points in them with a combat focused character while still retaining accuracy. Or even taken out altogether and replaced with other combat skills relating to all weapons.

 

Please bear in mind this is my only complaint and keep in mind my favourite ever shooter is Stalker Call of Pripyat. So its not the laser tag COD arcade approach I want.

 

And if you look at reviews only the Eurogamer review has bad things to say about the story, and the choice element in it, which is after all the main point of a CRPG. Jeff Gerstmann of Giant bomb gave it 3 out of 5 stars but he is going to play it again, which is a big thing for a busy reviewer to do. My point being honest critique is different from conspiracy.

 

Finally you cannot have your cake and eat it, as a game maker you can present your game in a third or first person action perspective to help drive sales and uptake, but you cannot then justify design elements based solely in Isometric CRPG design circa 1999.

 

Taking DAO as a CRPG example and the design elements a la NWN, yes, the reviewers gave a fair hearing.... but reviewing CRPG... not a "spy" RPG... trying to justify such elements in reviewing 2 different things, as it has been said, you are comparing apples with oranges... if the design and graphics are so important, there are many beautiful games with no deep and worst gameplay, as it been said, again, in order to get your optimal character, you should have 2 or 3 playthrou's, as any decent RPG...

 

Honest critique would be rating DAO low and AP low... to critic overpower abilities in ME2 and AP... and so on...

[Alpha]

well about the "conspiracy" it seems that worked because in some places the game is getting sold for $39.99, only for the bad press that i received and the unfair criticism about the game.

[Grayvern]

Taking DAO as a CRPG example and the design elements a la NWN, yes, the reviewers gave a fair hearing.... but reviewing CRPG... not a "spy" RPG... trying to justify such elements in reviewing 2 different things, as it has been said, you are comparing apples with oranges... if the design and graphics are so important, there are many beautiful games with no deep and worst gameplay, as it been said, again, in order to get your optimal character, you should have 2 or 3 playthrou's, as any decent RPG...

 

Honest critique would be rating DAO low and AP low... to critic overpower abilities in ME2 and AP... and so on...

 

 

The point I was making was that the design of Alpha Protocall, as a would be hybrid action RPG, is retrograde. It has been made specifically to appeal to fans of 3rd person action games as well with very little concession to them.

 

Therefore what I was saying does not apply to DA:O as it has not been made as a hybrid RPG. DA:O is a top down party RPG yes but it has also evolved a great deal compared to older examples of the Genre.

 

My point being Alpha Protocall has been designed as a similar type of CRPG to Dragon Age and then been shoe horned into a different type of CRPG. It is this shoe horning that is the throwback not the actual CRPG elements themselves.

 

My specific disappointment as I said before is that it is wholly possible to make an action CRPG that is based 1 to one on players ability with the action; ie shooter, brawler, fighter genres that is still a full featured RPG. Alpha Protocall could still have been an extremely complex and deep CRPG with the introduction of 1 to 1 shooting. The opertunity was there for people truely great at creating CRPG systems, or putting pen and paper RPG systems into CRPGS, to create an action RPG that didn't sacrifice the action or the role playing to any meaningful extent.

[Libertarian]

well about the "conspiracy" it seems that worked because in some places the game is getting sold for $39.99, only for the bad press that i received and the unfair criticism about the game.

 

Not out of the ordinary. I see most releases on sale for $39.99-$49.99 these days. Blur was just on sale for $39.99, too, and that's an Activision joint. Same with Split/Second, etc. New releases are on sale very early these days. I take advantage of these deals. Not to mention, I picked up Alpha Protocol for $44.99 from K-Mart when it released.

[Hassat Hunter]

The point I was making was that the design of Alpha Protocall, as a would be hybrid action RPG, is retrograde. It has been made specifically to appeal to fans of 3rd person action games as well with very little concession to them.

Meh, I would call ME2's action 'retrograde', not AP's. Then again I was perfectly fine with DX's system back in the day even if it got critic. I thought it was perfect.

 

So yeah, based on preference. And it seems there are more shooter fans than RPG (no surprise there) who can't deal with this system of aiming, which is (IMO) a shame.

[naarkh]

Hmm let's see.

 

Vampire The Masquerade : The Bloodlines was bugged upto sky too.(Crashing at leopold's place, glitches&bugs, not could be able to start game since it's black screen but sound playing... So many really) But it was first ever game that used famous Source engine(Even released or announced to be released before Half Life 2) so people bought it. It was also second in a series(Redemption was first) that some people liked and it was based on White Wolf setting which has "not so little amount" of fans. Also don't forget "Vampire" lovers who had no idea about previous games or White Wolf So of course it worked.(Troika bankrupted which is sad but VTM:B still has its own player base who're working on fixes after 6 years. So i can say it worked) (Overall gamestats score is 8.3)

 

KOTOR 2. It wasn't bugged as much as VTM:B to be fair but when you were close to endgame you'd realise there were some missing content. Atmosphere, prestige classes, well designed NPC's, being able to effect NPC's standing towards to you were all fine but ending was all rushed up.(LA's fault as far as i know but that's not our subject:) ) But again it worked well. Because it was a sequel to famous, legendary KOTOR and it was based on Star Wars setting after all.(Fans were trying to add missing content after years, no idea if they added or not yet. But it worked)(Overall gamestats score is 8.6)

 

Fallout 3. It was bugged, yes. Unpolished, game breaking bugs, blue screens of death, alt-tab caused crash... But RPG fans waited for it since Fallout 2(1999) and loved all games.(Better not to forget Oblivion which was only overrated in my opinion but received good reviews as an advert to Bethesda and their Fallout 3) Also by changing isometric style to FPS Bethesda gained massive fanbase while trying not to lose Fallout fanbase.(At least they said so.) Even with all the bugs it worked very well. It received good reviews but old fans(fans of FO and/or FO2) flamed Bethesda all over the internet while new fans tried to defend their game.(Advert in a good or bad way... Both works:) ) In the meantime Bethesda fixed the game, modders did their job so tada! We had a new classic.(Overall gamestats score is 9.0)

 

GTA 4. It was waited since San Andreas and Rockstar was(still is) good at advertising. It probably was good at consoles while... PC version was the most un-optimised game i've ever seen.(And no Crysis doesn't count since it was revolutionary about engine, technology etc. so it could be accepted. But GTA 4 was... just un-optimised console port) But again due to previous games' success and GTA's sandbox system(Follow the quest or type cheats and blow up some stuff or just drive around or...) it worked(Overall gamestats score is 8.1)

 

Alpha Protocol's gamestats score is 6.3. Which i can say it's under "mediocre" according to this score.(7-8 is good, 8< is classic... At least that's my thoughts)

 

Let me try to answer "why? why 6.3/10?"

 

1) Because people thought it should be another a) Splinter Cell(Spy game) b)Mass Effect 1 or 2(RPG shooter)

 

Habits you know? If you play Fifa all day you'd expect Pro Evolution Soccer to become a Fifa clone. No cookies for them from me but i can understand to expect same old thing in this "speeded up" world which everything is just a copy of another. (I don't agree to this but opinions of people anyway)

 

Also I have a friend who plays Hitman series like a shooter which is totally against game's design. But he thinks Hitman sucks since Call Of Duty has better shooting mechanics.(Yeah, he's Captain Obvious) He also couldn't be able to finish MGS I because of the need to hide. (He'd probably give Alpha Protocol 5-6 because of not only not trying to understand game's design but also having it his way)

 

2) Lack of character creation, gender selection

 

I completely agree to this. A change in romances or dialogues or even looks, generally make people play over over again(just like modding)

 

3) Hard gameplay

 

Both yes and no to this. Because it has a learning curve which you need to invest your time and practise. If you realise it, your opinion will get better but if you're a casual gamer who wants to take everything on a silver plate you won't stand learning stuff.

 

A person who voted 2/10 couldn't be able to pass the tutorial(Try Operation Flashpoint I, you'll love me), another guy from a video review(Probably an editor who gets money for doing "reviews") was telling how underpowered pistols are... Oh yeah!? I mean, really?

 

I can agree to "mouse lag" in hacking system but all other stuff depends on practising.(And i'm sure mouse issue will be fixed)

 

4) Bugs

 

Every single game has it.(Read upside) So it won't really count.

 

But of course polishing before release is always good

 

5) Poor AI

 

Just let me tell you what Bioware fixed in their second patch of ME 2 : Fixed an issue where enemies sometimes 'pop-up' onto cover after taking damage.(Which still happens to me and yes it breaks whole mood/RP or game experience to see that kind of stuff)

 

Or remember in KOTOR series team members loved to walk over a mine.

 

And of course if you invest in stealth you can't be seen easily... It's not about AI

 

6) Balance

 

Come on, it's not a MMO who cares about balance?

 

Oh actually check this out. It's been 5 years and they're nerfing/boosting up abilities in an online game which has a fan army : http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/patchnotes/

 

So isn't it normal to have balance issues?(Remember force lightning in KOTOR or think about mages in Dragon Age)

 

7) Not a sequel or not using a pre-designed setting

 

Well let me summarise KOTOR series, ME series and Dragon Age to get the "idea" (Massive spoilers about these ahead)

 

 

A big danger(sith,geth,undead guys), a betrayal(Malak, Saren, Loghain), a useless organisation that supposed to work but doesn't work with to real reason at all(jedi council, ME council, king of feraldan), gathering people against this threat by travelling places(So many... But let's say canderous, ashley, morrigan), a prestige class that feels you're chosen one(jedi, spectre, grey warden), when you thought you figured out the danger you realise the real danger is still out there(real siths, sovereign, archdemon), you save the day.... (Of course with some romance over here and there, with some emotional dialogues etc.)

 

So in my opinion and if you think simple you'll realise it's all same just different days. So even though they are called different than KOTOR... They're all simply KOTOR mods(name changes, setting changes)

 

I also was surprised that ME 1 got so much good reviews since it's first half was totally a rip-off of KOTOR 1... People seem to forget about previous game when new one comes out.

 

Only in ME2 they tried to break this meaningless circle.(But they forgot story and RP part this time, ah well)

 

 

And check their settings... Star Wars(You can sell people blank CD's by this franchise), medieval typical elf/dwarf crap(It sells since the beginning of time) and a new sci-fi one(Not only sci-fi sells but also Bioware somehow convinced people it's totally "new")

 

Anyway for me Alpha Protocol deserves something around 7.5-8/10 because of lack of character creation and lack of free roaming/chatting over here and there but this 1-2 points(6.3-7.5 or 6.3- makes game go up from "mediocre" to "good", which is fair enough for any game.

 

Not only i appreciate real time setting(No mutants allowed) in a RPG but also it's something fresh(more fresh at least) and NPC's and their stances... I missed that much characteriestic NPC's since Atton from KOTOR 2(ME 2 has some good NPC's too, to be fair)

 

After playing Alpha Protocol(finished 2 times, working on third) i'm really worried about the gems that i'm missing because of these so-called "reviewers"

 

PS: I think i got an achivement of longest post in any forums

Edited June 23, 2010 by naarkh

[epektasis]

I also was surprised that ME 1 got so much good reviews since it's first half was totally a rip-off of KOTOR 1... People seem to forget about previous game when new one comes out.

 

Only in ME2 they tried to break this meaningless circle.(But they forgot story and RP part this time, ah well)

 

(Sorry for my poor english)

 

I agree with you. Only one thing (which I have already said in another post): you forgot to say that Mass Effect 2 story is a shameless plagiarism of a recent and famous "Sci-Fi Opera".

For me this is important, but no reviewer has said a word about this plagiarism.

Why do you think this plagiarism is being ignored?

[naarkh]

I also was surprised that ME 1 got so much good reviews since it's first half was totally a rip-off of KOTOR 1... People seem to forget about previous game when new one comes out.

 

Only in ME2 they tried to break this meaningless circle.(But they forgot story and RP part this time, ah well)

 

(Sorry for my poor english)

 

I agree with you. Only one thing (which I have already said in another post): you forgot to say that Mass Effect 2 story is a shameless plagiarism of a recent and famous "Sci-Fi Opera".

For me this is important, but no reviewer has said a word about this plagiarism.

Why do you think this plagiarism is being ignored?

 

Hehe i'm not a big fan of sci-fi except Star Wars and i don't really watch any recent movies, no matter how good or praised they are(Still watching good old 70's) (But if you can PM me about the movie or tv-series that you mentioned i'll check it out)

 

Even though i don't follow mainstream movies i'm sure some reviewers do but since we haven't heard about how ME I is heavily "inspired" from KOTOR I, i'm not so surprised not to hear that.

 

It might be about the change in gamer profile. People respect looks and graphics not the ideas or originality.(You can check how WoW stole ideas from other games like UO/SWG etc. You can also feel free to browse any MMO forums to see "Introduce x from WoW" titles. People always after same thing not originality) "Make me feel like hero in easiest/fastest way! I don't care about how deep/original the story or the game is!" which i think will be failure of SWTOR(Not business wise but as design) and even probably gaming industry in long term but that's another subject )

 

Just thoughts...

Edited June 23, 2010 by naarkh

[epektasis]

naarkh'

But if you can PM me about the movie or tv-series that you mentioned i'll check it out

 

 

Ok I have sent you a private message.

[Hassat Hunter]

Actually, BioWare used that plot way before KOTOR1.