The Conspiracy Against Alpha Protocol

[Ulicus]

 

Do we get our own clubhouse?

 

The difficult part is going to be demonstrating the secret handshake...

The Adirondacks are beautiful this time of year....

[Amentep]

[Oner]

I don't like the mountains.

[Alpha]

want some sweaty ice cream?

[Oner]

Hey mister....Cone to go?

[GhostofAnakin]

Like I posted in another thread, but this one might be more appropriate for it:

 

I bought this game along with Red Dead Redemption and only really tried it today(week later). This game is fun, but definitely not the greatest game off all times(Red Dead Redemption is). I love this game as much as I hate it. SEGA has always released buggy products, and so I really wasn't expecting a flawless game anyways. Enemy AI seems to have been programmed by someone who just graduated 2nd grade, and got their degree from a cracker jack box. Inventive plots though, and I hope a trend forms from espionage rpg's,

 

See, this is something I don't understand. Alpha Protocol is being hammered for "retarded enemy AI" (and yes, the enemy does do some dumb things), but yet other games with similarly "retarded enemy AI" don't get bashed for it.

 

Like in the post I quoted, the love for Red Dead Redemption. I played it (even finished with the 100% completed challenge), enjoyed it, and might even re-play it. But I didn't find the enemies any smarter than the ones I've encountered in AP. In fact, I found RDR's combat even easier due to that automatic aiming thing, where I just had to aim in the general direction of an enemy and it would lock on to them.

 

Again, that's not to suggest I didn't enjoy RDR ... I actually did, quite a lot to be honest. But the enemy AI wasn't any better than what was in AP.

[Alpha]

The AI is a lil dumb sometimes but the majority of the times work super smart .

[poetic obsidian]

Ghostofanakin:

 

One thing that's consistent in the Alpha Protocol negative reviews is that for some reason, people are letting the minuses influence their score the most.

 

Every game has its pluses and minuses, but in AP's case, people are letting the shortcomings influence the score more than the positives.

 

In a way, maybe Obsidian could turn this into a compliment. People are saying, "gee the pluses are so amazing, that it is such a huge shame that it was marred by the minuses." Kindof like if someone defecates on a Picasso or Salvador Dali painting, the faeces will look more worse than if it was on a painting done by a no-name artist. Think about it (er...)

[Amentep]

I'm not sure what it says about my intelligence if the "dumb AI" keeps killing me. ;_;

[blackwolfe]

Dumb AI = Standing in front of turret getting mowed down without even reacting to it.

Dumb AI = Standing in a corner staring at the wall

Good AI = Getting you killed

 

The AI isn't dumb all the time

[Oner]

At least they're not strafing between two set points.

[blackwolfe]

At least they're not strafing between two set points.

 

Played enough games with retarded AI like that

[Deadly_Nightshade]

...why not put some effort into it and actually tell me your opinion.

 

Fine then, you want my opinion? Here's a summery of my opinion:

While Mass Effect 2 might have been a good, fun game, I am not disputing that as that would make me a hypocrite -seeing as I have stated that it was a fun game in the fairly recent past-, but it was not a great CRPG nor would I say that it raised expectations of what a CRPG should be (at least for those who have been playing them for awhile). Sure, it was polished and everything, for the most part "fit" - but the fact is that the base game, especially if you didn't import a save from the original or edit one using a hex-editing tool, fell short when it came to story. And that was alright because, as many people have said, the game was more of an interactive sci-fi, action film than a deep, story-driven CRPG. Compared to Planescape Torment, Mask of the Betrayer, or even KotOR II, the game seemed shallower and, frankly, not as epic as some would have you believe (although I will admit that I enjoyed the final cinematics when you're

leading the suicide assault against the Collector homeworld/base

).

 

On the other hand, Alpha Protocol, while also not possessed of the best story in the universe -

evil corporation screws over world is hardly a unique plot

-, it managed to make almost every action, even some very small ones that might be overlooked unless you know what to do beforehand, have a meaningful impacts on the rest of the game. Side with or kill one person and an entire arch is, unlike most of Mass Effect 2, closed to you. Make the "wrong" choice and it will come back to haunt you later. BioWare tried to implement this and, in general, failed (with a few exceptions such as

the battle between Morith and her mother where you were forced to decide who should live and who should die

, although even then it was far from perfect as you had to have an extreme level of either Paragon or Renegade to do something that should, in my mind, have been doable without any prerequisite).

 

Just as KotOR II, even in its half finished state -I know there is the restoration mods but I am talking about the base game here-, was better than the finished, polished KotOR, Obsidian has again shown that a well designed CRPG can be better than a weaker, refined one. While BioWare might have made a more polished game with Mass Effect 2, I would have to say that Obsidian made a better CRPG - and, frankly, a better overall game that, while not perfect, manages to make your choices actually count for something. But then you are talking to someone who was, quote, "cherry picking my post for a single statement just to make a dumbass remark" - although I would argue that that was not the case since I was arguing with the first point and without that the rest of your post did not follow. As for the game "not meeting everybody's expectations", I can assure you that it more than met mine and I was pleasantly surprised at how good the game is. I'd also disagree that the stealth parts were bad -I used a stealth character for my first build and I know someone who did a total stealth run and managed to complete the game with no unnecessary -id est not plot required- kills-, nor would I say that the shooting, aside from the sniper rifle, was that bad. It was at least on par with Mass Effect 2 in my mind and was certainly better than Mass Effect's combat.

[poetic obsidian]

Deadly Nightshade:

 

I share your sentiments but unfortunately, there is an aspect of this that goes well beyond the realm of gaming. Games like Alpha Protocol will always only be fully appreciated by a select crowd.

 

In the western society we live in, people would prefer something that is easy-to-digest and flashy, over something that has more substance but takes more effort to swallow.

 

We're even trained to think like this from since we're young. The unhealthy, sugary cereal boxes are as bright and colorful as the cereals inside. Movies like Avatar will always be huge box-office hits even though the unoriginal story itself has been covered many times in the past. Yet many people say that Avatar made them more environmentally conscious for the first time in their life. So we're only willing to listen to a message if it's presented in a fancy, eye-pleasing way?

Edited June 10, 2010 by poetic obsidian

[Libertarian]

Hey, if you don't mind, I'm off to listen to Lady Gaga!

[Hassat Hunter]

In the western society we live in, people would prefer something that is easy-to-digest and flashy, over something that has more substance but takes more effort to swallow.

Totally depends on the person, I guess.

Me, I don't.

 

Also, I noticed Deadly_Nightshade is using a quote of me as signature... I am flattered 0_0.

[BEES]

Just as KotOR II, even in its half finished state -I know there is the restoration mods but I am talking about the base game here-, was better than the finished, polished KotOR, Obsidian has again shown that a well designed CRPG can be better than a weaker, refined one. While BioWare might have made a more polished game with Mass Effect 2, I would have to say that Obsidian made a better CRPG - and, frankly, a better overall game that, while not perfect, manages to make your choices actually count for something.

 

That's being a bit disingenuous. KotOR is a very good game and the story is well told. The characters are bland and shallow, but that doesn't change the fact that the narrative is well paced. I quite enjoyed KotOR II and it certainly had the potential to surpass the original, but in the state that it launched there is no way it was better than the first.

 

I think you're really underplaying the quality of games that BioWare produces. They certainly don't have the same character focus, but BioWare develops the quintessential monomythic hero journey and they certainly do it well. Obsidian always takes a more personal approach to story telling and I'd hazard that if they tried to do the 'hero's journey' they wouldn't be able to tell it nearly as well as BioWare. But, there's no reason for them to since their stories and characters are good as they are now.

 

In the western society we live in, people would prefer something that is easy-to-digest and flashy, over something that has more substance but takes more effort to swallow.

 

We're even trained to think like this from since we're young. The unhealthy, sugary cereal boxes are as bright and colorful as the cereals inside.

 

That's just flat out wrong. We aren't conditioned to like sugary foods. That's likely an environmental adaptation developed over thousands of years of human development when sugars were hard to come by and fiber was the mainstay of the hunter/gather diet.

[Scorpion27]

One thing i'd like to mention is that a lot of the Obsidian team are people who used to work for Black Isle, Bioware, Blizzard, you name it...

They have an amazing talent pool at that company that have been involved over the years in very high profile RPGs

 

Now let me be blunt. I worship Bioware... They could package the 3 little pigs as an RPG and I would buy just on the company's reputation alone.

 

BUT...

 

I have purchased every game obsidian has released and every time I found that the STORY TELLING, not necessarely the technical aspects, were light years away from the original.

 

Lets compare KOTOR 1 & 2. As a Star Wars fan I can tell you flat out, It felt like playing Episode 4!!! Amnesic nobody turns out to be the forgotten sith lord and saves the day!!! woot woot... (Luke! I am your father! NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!). Very entertaining, dramatic, but at the end not that original. With the exeption of the truly EPIC interaction with HK 47! (Best video game character in history IMHO!)

 

Now Kotor 2 started immediately more like watching Empire... You know who you are... An outcast... One who turned its back on the Jedi Order and is thrown back in the fray by a completely devious sith lord due to galactic events...

 

Please do not tell me that malak could hold the candle to Kreia as a nemesis!

 

I loved Kotor. The story line of kotor 2 is what makes me rave (up to this day!) for a Kotor 3!

 

Obsidian seems to be evil geniuses when it come to taking an RPG franchise and "make it better" just out of sheer creative talent in scenario handling and plot twists.

 

So I have to say that Obsidian has now entered a very short list... The list of companies who can sale me a game based on their name only. So far only Bioware and Bethesda had achieved that. I now have to add Obsidian to the list.

 

AP was their first truly original work. As far as I am concerned, even if not perfect, it was still a home run.

 

Peace.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Scorpion27

[Libertarian]

One thing i'd like to mention is that a lot of the Obsidian team are people who used to work for Black Isle, Bioware, Blizzard, you name it...

They have an amazing talent pool at that company that have been involved over the years in very high profile RPGs

 

Now let me be blunt. I worship Bioware... They could package the 3 little pigs as an RPG and I would buy just on the company's reputation alone.

 

BUT...

 

I have purchased every game obsidian has released and every time I found that the STORY TELLING, not necessarely the technical aspects, were light years away from the original.

 

Lets compare KOTOR 1 & 2. As a Star Wars fan I can tell you flat out, It felt like playing Episode 4!!! Amnesic nobody turns out to be the forgotten sith lord and saves the day!!! woot woot... (Luke! I am your father! NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!). Very entertaining, dramatic, but at the end not that original. With the exeption of the truly EPIC interaction with HK 47! (Best video game character in history IMHO!)

 

Now Kotor 2 started immediately more like watching Empire... You know who you are... An outcast... One who turned its back on the Jedi Order and is thrown back in the fray by a completely devious sith lord due to galactic events...

 

Please do not tell me that malak could hold the candle to Kreia as a nemesis!

 

I loved Kotor. The story line of kotor 2 is what makes me rave (up to this day!) for a Kotor 3!

 

Obsidian seems to be evil geniuses when it come to taking an RPG franchise and "make it better" just out of sheer creative talent in scenario handling and plot twists.

 

So I have to say that Obsidian has now entered a very short list... The list of companies who can sale me a game based on their name only. So far only Bioware and Bethesda had achieved that. I now have to add Obsidian to the list.

 

AP was their first truly original work. As far as I am concerned, even if not perfect, it was still a home run.

 

Peace.

 

Great post. In total agreement.

[Thorton_AP]

For a while I have been of the mind that I find Obsidian (and Black Isle) games to be superior in their narrative and story telling. But BioWare's games have typically been technically better, from a gameplay side or what have you.

 

 

There are some exceptions (Icewind Dale, which was explicit in its attempts to be a hack 'n' slash), but that's the way I see it.

[Oblarg]

For a while I have been of the mind that I find Obsidian (and Black Isle) games to be superior in their narrative and story telling. But BioWare's games have typically been technically better, from a gameplay side or what have you.

 

 

There are some exceptions (Icewind Dale, which was explicit in its attempts to be a hack 'n' slash), but that's the way I see it.

 

Pretty much how I see it, as well. The real place where Obsidian pulls ahead is dialogue - BioWare can make a good plot, but they can't back it up with equally strong dialogue, which often detracts from the intensity of the plot. Virmire in ME1, for example, had a great moment in the plot where you had to choose between Ashley or Kaiden, but the godawful dialogue robbed it of any emotional power it would have ("I'M SORRY ASH. I HAD TO MAKE A CHOICE."). Obsidian, on the other hand, has always written absolutely great dialogue to support their games. Kreia in KotOR2 has some of the best lines I have ever heard in a video game - never has any BioWare character even come close.

 

Edit: And if Kreia isn't good enough for you, try Heck. I was falling out of my chair laughing at his emails.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Oblarg

[Scorpion27]

Hmmmm like I said before HK-47...

Untouchable...

Especially in Kotor 2 when you instal the "pacifist" module. I felt out of my chair laughing on that one.

[Oblarg]

Hmmmm like I said before HK-47...

Untouchable...

Especially in Kotor 2 when you instal the "pacifist" module. I felt out of my chair laughing on that one.

 

KotOR2 HK-47 is great.

 

HK 47: In a startling turn of events, the sith declared war on the republic. The republic wouldn't stand for it, so they went to war right back

 

Exile: Why did the sith declare war on the republic?

 

HK 47: Answer: Oh who knows, master. It is evident that the sith would like very much to assassinate all the jedi. Which is somewhat equivalent to cultural suicide, since some sith are jedi or were jedi.

 

HK 47: It is much like the circumstance I find myself in now: How do you kill such an integral part of yourself over such ethical differences?

 

HK 47: The answer, of course, is to keep firing until all dissension has been eradicated.

 

****ing hilarious.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Oblarg

[Hassat Hunter]

For a while I have been of the mind that I find Obsidian (and Black Isle) games to be superior in their narrative and story telling. But BioWare's games have typically been technically better, from a gameplay side or what have you.

I doubt anyone would disagree with you.

 

The question then is; what do you find more attractive? A good narration (OE) above mega-polished gameplay, or mega-polished gameplay that's rather bland in content (BW).

 

Apperently a lot of people choose BW, much to the demise of Troika, but I definitely put OE higher.

[Thorton_AP]

If you were to force me to choose, I'd pick OE.

 

I really enjoy what comes out of both companies though.