Alpha Protocol the next Vampire The Maquarade:Bloodlines

[Sid Nitzerglobin]

So AP makes great bounds forward in jiggle physics?

 

That alone should cement it a place in gaming history alongside VtM:BL and DoA Xtreme Beach Volleyball.

 

In all seriousness, I will be pleasantly surprised if I get the same level of enjoyment from AP as VtM:BL.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Sid Nitzerglobin

[Barachiel]

As a long-time fan of VtM: Bloodlines, I have to agree, Alpha Protocol is *nowhere* near as buggy as that game. The fan community is *still* releasing unofficial patches for it, I think! *shakes head*

 

Now that being said, I've long felt Obsidian seemed to be working hard to take Troika's place as the "Development House Most In Need of a Good QA Department", but no, AP is *not* as bad as Bloodlines, *ESPECIALLY* not at release.

[Arunak]

As a long-time fan of VtM: Bloodlines, I have to agree, Alpha Protocol is *nowhere* near as buggy as that game. The fan community is *still* releasing unofficial patches for it, I think! *shakes head*

Feel free to stop your head. The "unofficial patch", along with some major mods, have been all about adding content (official content in the case of the up) since several years.

[Kasabian]

Thing is, that fan made VTMB patch really makes for an enjoyable game. I just wish the source code was released so major gameplay fixes could be implemented too. If only Trokia had more time to develop it, who knows, maybe we would have had a few more sequels by now.

[Deng]

Not less than Gothic, don't make me bring up God Boar of the "Slaughter your high level character" land.

 

 

Haha, Gothic 3. You can kill an orc, but not a boar

[Deng]

Let me get back in here for a sec. Now I am not saying that the games are alike in any way, other than the montioned ones, I compare them on the feeling you get when you play it, that distinct, "this is way better than most things out there at the moment, but if it only had .... wansn't .... and so on" VtMB is a cult classic, and am a part of that cult, I can easily see how AP will become a cult classic in the same manner. Bloodlines is one of the greatest RPGs ever, so is AP, because they do somethin new. If 20 years from now, when scouring my old games collection I find all the RPGs I own, I would rather play AP and VtMB instead of say Dragon Age (which is also a very good game) .

 

Back on topic, you can't tell me that both games aren't a fresh RPG that brings something new to the genre/have a small following/are cult classics (as far as I am concerened AP is a cult classic, look at the number of people in this forum, we are a cult [ minus the goat slaughter ] )

 

 

I think you are right. They are both certainly fresh. It's seriously nice to see RPG style play moving on to other settings and styles. The swords and sorcery trope has been beaten to death.

 

And one thing both games do really well is immerse you in the idea of a secret society. Both in Bloodlines and AP I really do get the sense I'm through the look glass.

[Reg1.1]

And also, poeple, please stop acting like I said they are the same game or in any case have the same number of bugs, you might have few bugs, I have a lot, it is the PC gaming curse. Here we only talk about the simmilar and whether or not both games are exceptional achievements in RPG development hampered by a few gnashing flaws.

[LookAndRoll]

*Both games have an original concept.

Definitely.

 

*Both games feel highly unfinished upon release.

Kind of

 

*Both have an abnormal amount of glitches and bugs for a new game.

I haven't run into none. So far so good.

 

*Both garner a small but strong community.

I'm new here, I hope so

 

*Both stand out with original writing and good story.

Yeah, I kind of liked AP more. The modern setting is more plausible sometimes.

 

*Both make the mistake of calculating in a RPG style when it comes to shooting.

How is that a mistake?? If the game is an Action RPG it needs both parts: A) The character skills B) The player skills.

If the character stats and skills don't have any input on the gameplay outcome, its not an ARPG, and more like a Shooter with RPG elements (ME2)

 

*Both have a very distinct atmosphere.

This goes for bloodlines. But AP is kind of good too.

 

*Both could have been larger than live succeses if they were more polished.

Agreed.

 

*Both are worthy of cult classic status.

Unfourtunaly, this game came in the "Age of shooters" and reviewers who can't play the game for what it is. If this game was to come in the old times, where real RPG's were praised the history will probably different.

 

Do you think that AP will get a list of patches addressing the issues it has, will it have a modding community as strong as VtMB, will it have a sequel, will it become playable after the patches?

I hope so. But Obsidian is not keen on doing patches. I hope there a sequel, they'll have my pre oder already.

Edited June 1, 2010 by LookAndRoll

[Reg1.1]

My point on the combat seems to be also taken wrongly, due to my bad phrasing. I do not mean take the RPG away from the shooting interelly (oh eff you and your spelling, I aint english) . What I mean is tone it down, keep it there, but less prominent, a headshot is a headshot, and unless he has a helmet he will die if I hit him at a reasonable range with the weapon that I have, so just make headshots always criticals, but make them hard to get, make enemies move around a bit more, for body shots, please, by all means, calculate baby, but with reason, there is no reason why an Al-Samad terrorist can soke up more bullets than a G22 operative, unless his skin is thougher :D . So yes, please neglect that point in the way it is phrased, that was mostly for the headshot survivors (Yes I know that people have survived headshots, but they are a dime a dozen) .

[Baeus]

Old staple of rpgs, a headshot isn't always a headshot You can fall headfirst off a cliff, be stabbed, shot, burned, frozen, exploded and have your soul pulled out through your nose and survive it all with the help of a healing potion/medic pack.

 

Until some long haired pretty boy stabs you in a cutscene and everyone forgets to use a pheonix down

 

Not saying it's a good thing, but sometimes you have to be prepared to see a lifebar. Honestly, I'm not sure which method I prefer.

[Azazel005]

I can see some correlation, though as has been said here the level of polish and bugs aren't even comparable. Bloodlines was quite literally a mess on release, AP has some minor 'oddness' here and there but nothing glaring or critical that I have seen.

 

Time will tell how it's remembered, I think that there is enough iniative and appeal to mean that a sizeable cross section of players will remember it fondly, and I personally think it's a very good game if not wonderful. I think it lacks some of the sheer splendour of Bloodlines though, I am thinking of the haundted house and the first Malkavian playthrough some of those moments at the time made me think bloodlines could have been one of the greatest games ever made.

 

I can't say the same of AP, there is tonnes of fun qutoable dialogue it seldom has the same punch as the best bloodlines dialogue, and none of the 'set piece' moments stand out as giving me chills.

 

Ultimately I hope it does well enough that a sequel is commissioned, that'll do me.

[Gromnir]

*Both games have an original concept.

*Both games feel highly unfinished uppon release.

*Both have an abnormal ammount of glitches and bugs for a new game.

*Both garner a small but strong community.

*Both stand out with original writting and good story.

*Both make the mistake of calculating in a RPG style when it comes to shooting.

*Both have a very distinct atmosphere.

*Both could have been larger than live succeses if they were more polished.

*Both are worthy of cult classic status.

 

 

Do you think that AP will get a list of patches addresing the issuesd it has, will it have a modding community as strong as VtMB, will it have a sequel, will it become playable after the patches?

 

am not sure of the accuracy of the comparison, but we would prefer to french kiss a light socket than take another stab at troika's vampire game.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Freud]

I think it is not as much pure bugs as it is poor design decisions and console solutions that are horrible for PC that really drags this game down. Some of the design choices are simply flabbergasting.

 

* Displaying all the levels at the same time on the map (wtf)

* Not being able to bind skills to a button but having to use a skill then go to the silly consolish wheel-of-choice to pick another. Come on, that is just lazy.

* The minigames are just bad and a general skill check would have been more fun.

* Bosses that can take insane damage in a game that is set in a realistic world. That is so stupid it blows my mind. And to add to badness of the design, you made one of the bosses (Brayko) so hard that he is virtually unkillable for those that that go to Moscow first or create a character that is more into stealth than gunplay. This should have been solved pre-alpha, alpha, beta, whenever. The fact that something like this made it live makes me question what QA you have going.

* Not being able to set mouse sensitivity from within the game. In a PC game. In the year 2010. Seriously?

* Messing up mouse sensitivity for sniper rifle so that if you have normal sensitivity during the game you get hyper sensitivity for sniper rifle so it is impossible to target with it. When I moved my mouse 1 mm the crosshairs moved a quarter of my screen. I had to tab out and set my windows mouse sense to the lowest whenever I would try to snipe and the sensitivity was still too high.

 

That said, I had fun with this game and don't regret buying it. It does a lot of things right too. It is still a huge disappointment because this could have been a contender. Now it is just a 80/100 game that should have been a 90+/100 if they had someone making good design decisions. What should have been GOTY isn't even GOTM.

[Tigranes]

* Displaying all the levels at the same time on the map (wtf)

 

This is a problem because? O_o

 

you made one of the bosses (Brayko) so hard that he is virtually unkillable for those that that go to Moscow first or create a character that is more into stealth than gunplay

 

The same boss that I can kill on Normal, going to Moscow first, hand-to-hand & stealth specialist, even though I can barely beat Halo single player on Hard?

 

I don't disagree the game needs polish and has problems, but sometimes stuff that annoys us annoys us becasue of our particular experience, just because we hate it doesn't mean it's some catastrophic disaster.

[Freud]

This is a problem because? O_o

 

Because it is much harder to see the layout of the level compared to if only one level is shown at a time. Now you can say that you had no problem seeing the layout.

 

The same boss that I can kill on Normal, going to Moscow first, hand-to-hand & stealth specialist, even though I can barely beat Halo single player on Hard?

 

I don't disagree the game needs polish and has problems, but sometimes stuff that annoys us annoys us becasue of our particular experience, just because we hate it doesn't mean it's some catastrophic disaster.

 

The same boss some people have tried over 80 times to kill despite having no problem getting to that part of the game, you mean? You don't think that is indicative of so poor design that it is simply unacceptable? It should be considered a "catastrophic disaster" from Obsidians perspective because if it isn't, then they are bound to continue making horrible design decisions.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Freud

[mr_cyberpunk]

Thing is, that fan made VTMB patch really makes for an enjoyable game. I just wish the source code was released so major gameplay fixes could be implemented too. If only Trokia had more time to develop it, who knows, maybe we would have had a few more sequels by now.

 

There's someone in the community trying to port it to the latest source engine- so yeah major gameplay fixes should be possible once its accomplished, its just only the maps have been imported at this stage from the looks of things (well going by the demo they showed).

 

Meanwhile yeah, I get the same vibe as I did with Vampire, so hence my efforts to get a mod SDK for this game- because the VTMB community did some miracle work on the game- and I can only hope that the same can be done for AP.

[Tigranes]

Because it is much harder to see the layout of the level compared to if only one level is shown at a time. Now you can say that you had no problem seeing the layout.

 

Ah, I see. Personally it was better for me as I could see it all on one page... and honestly, AP's maps are pretty small and linear, I never really used the maps. Fair enough though.

 

The same boss some people have tried over 80 times to kill despite having no problem getting to that part of the game, you mean?

 

You mean one guy on this forum who had to try 80 times? I mean, I feel for the guy, but now you're just exaggerating. You want 'catastrophes', go look at pre-patch Gothic 3 boars. There's really two points here - that a 'real-life' setting should not have such bosses, then that Brayko is too hard. Those are separate arguments. For the latter, considering you can come back to Brayko later on in the game, that there are dossiers available to make him considerably easier, and that once you work out the right ways to beat him it is not that hard....

[Mirage]

I'm now on my second mission in Taipei, and I have to say I do feel the lashes of nostalgia for VTMB, the characters can be very entertaining, there's clever writing if you pick certain responses, etc. Great music, and atmosphere at times (the ambient track in the Grand Hotel is stuck in my head). And, of course, the modern setting is a link between the two.

 

I'm enthralled so far.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Mirage

[Wombat]

Well, Obsidian did not make VTMB, if your complaints about the company are due to a few staff members coming from Trokia which created that game, then surely you should praise them also for being Black Isle and bringing us Fallout II and Baldur's Gate II. Far as I am concerned games from previous companies years ago should not be use as examples for the current different company.

If you had noticed the fact that I even track down BIS/Troika developers to this company and Double Bear Productions, you must have spared your time on trying to explain the background information.

 

In any case, what you wrote is far from my point. By the same mistake, I mainly meant this one from the list of the OP.

*Both make the mistake of calculating in a RPG style when it comes to shooting.

NPCs still standing after getting a few headshots doesn't seem to be believable as well as the PC stopping the time while sneaking, for example. These mechanics doesn't seem to fit real world settings with modern graphics.

 

There must be better points where shooter game-play and RPG system could be blended together. I think some developers in Obsidian are well aware of "the issue" but I believe some others are still obsessed by the formats of older CRPG although if their knowledge is used without the obsession, it could make another good resource for Obsidian (and hopefully, next-gen CRPG genre). Employing knowledge is one thing, and prejudiced by it is another.

 

That said, don't misunderstand me. I'm familiar with quite a number of PnP RPG systems and I think there must be plenty of room for their essences combined with even the contemporary gaming.

 

 

There's someone in the community trying to port it to the latest source engine- so yeah major gameplay fixes should be possible once its accomplished, its just only the maps have been imported at this stage from the looks of things (well going by the demo they showed).

I'm not a programmer but, from what I have gathered so far, the bugg-ines seems to come from the deeper level, so, I guess they are right in doing this. In fact, I read some people who seem to be knowledgeable on programming equivocally wrote about the game: if rendering engine is not good, it will limit what the artists can do. They say, if the foundation itself is bad, there is no use in building anything on it. For me, it is a fixated view to CRPG mechanics but it seems the same thing can be applied to the engine.

[Reg1.1]

We are in an age of gaming where the only innovation and progress that can be made is through combination and refininf, unless someone actually listens and makes a good motion control system. Thus we get more and more hybrids, some good, most of them, bad, AP is among the good ones, although it does not combine them in a way that fits with todays standards, if it had come out when it was done ( Yes SEGA it is all your fault ) it would have been the benchmark for it's time, but this is what happens when a publisher tries to help the game, fail ( not that AP is fail, just a case in point ) . Hopefully for AP2 we can have the good amalgamation of mechanics that was expected for AP (no that the ones we have are bad per say, it's just that there are games which do it's individual elements better, and not by a little ) .

[Klimy]

I don't know why but I also got a feeling that its like "Vampires: The Bloodlines". Don't know why, just a feeling.

Now all we need, in order to make it more like "V:TB", is strong community to patch and expand the game

[Reg1.1]

Strong community is in the making, though we still need some tools from Obs, at the very least a patch to get things going with making the game better.

[Klimy]

Well, Im working as Software Dev, but have no idea about moding or how video games work. Anyhow, if anyone will make a community moders team (or what ever you want to call it) let me know so I can help out with coding if needed.

[Bos_hybrid]

I posted in a different thread earlier(damned if I can find that post now) that AP will be like VTM:B, after another playthroughs I have to change my stance on that. I had to really push myself to get through it again just to see some of the C&C and in the end, the C&C did not make it worth it.

 

It's not the next VTM:B, it is as buggy though.

[poetic obsidian]

I definitely understand the comparisons. But VTM:Bloodlines was the swan song of my beloved Troika. Let's hope the comparisons stop well before that.