Israel butchers civilians in international waters

[Volourn]

" This is just the latest incident in a long list of actions that would have been declared and outrage if conducted by say Iran or another "Axis of Evil" country."

 

Oh, please. There is a lot of cries of outrage here.

 

btw, There's more likely to be somehting done here than with NK or Iran which most of the world seem to excuse them. *shrug*

 

 

"which as far as I know was Palestinian/Arabic land originally"

 

No, this is a myth. This was not Palestinian land originally. In fact, the Palestinians as a group are relatively new. Also, you want to talk about how Palestinians are treated poorly, just ask their fellow Arabs.

[Calax]

^ In all seriousness, why not?

 

Because they're not Israel.

 

This is what I've been banging on about for ten pages. Israel is important, it stands for something bigger. It's Fort Laramie, a dirty, battered outpost of Western democracy. Those who would see a shadow of Iranian-style dictatorship descend over the entire region want it destroyed. They are using multiple tactics, including this old favourite from the KGB playbook of using 'progressive elements.' Am I suggesting that this flotilla is on a hotline to Tehran? Hell, no. Am I suggesting that the European liberal left is being subtly manipulated, that it's acidic self-hate is being hi-jacked? Hell yes.

So basically we have to cover Israel because it's a demonstration of how things should be... So why don't we do what we did with Isreal in Tibet? Force the Chinese to give up the territory and then set the Dhali Lama up as a leader, to create a bastion of westernism within the far east? Or do we just do that when the genocide is physical rather than ideological?

Edited June 1, 2010 by Calax

[HoonDing]

Monte, I respect your open-mindedness, if I read your post correctly. But if we dig up the past, and dig it up thoroughly, we'll eventually find how Israel settled on that soil in the first place, which as far as I know was Palestinian/Arabic land originally; that's why I can't justify anything Israel is doing in the area. That's also the reason I was trying to stay on the topic (this single event, the deaths in the convoy/flotilla).

Funny how you could make this argument for the USA, and a whole lot of other countries that started by driving away the indigenous populations.

 

That said, though, Israel is not Palestinian/Arabic originally. It was conquered by Muslims in the 7th century. But Jewish people have continuously been living there.

Edited June 1, 2010 by virumor

[surreal]

If I'm mistaken, i.e. if that land is rightfully Israel's soil, I'm also open to sources that you might point me towards. I'm quite interested in this subject.

 

Though it might seem blunt answering a question that wasn't directed to me, it means no offense.

The answer depends on how deep you're willing to delve.

 

If you got by the Bible, then the land is rightfully Israel's.

 

If you don't want to involve religion, then it becomes really tough, because the Palestinian nation isn't something that existed before the state of Israel was declared. The term was coined later on.

Back under the British law, there were both local Arabs, with all kinds of religions, such as Muslims, Druze, Bedouin, Christians and some other minor factions and Jewish people. Though, it must be noted that the Arab parties weren't exactly on peace terms one with each other, and certainly not with Jews.

Year 48 came close, and the Jewish population just grew and grew, mainly because of immigration. They didn't have it easy though, the land was awful, constant attacks from the enemies. But they didn't sit tight either, and raised some armed forces. A small part of the armed forces were actually terrorists, and they went not only against the Arabs but also against the British. The situation, for them, was even worse than it is today in Gaza, so they resorted to radical methods. I don't think that everything that was done was morally acceptable (more of the opposite in fact), but neither the things done to them were right.

No matter how you look at it, they built the ground for 48. USSR was very supportive for the Jews (mainly because back then Communism was mostly adopted at that time frame), and many other countries felt wrong about what just transpired in the war, and most importantly the Jewish community in the area was the most united of all others and the only one willing to heavily invest in the area.

The decision was made, Israel was founded in 48. It was attacked two days (!!) later. Fended off the invaders (spoken too lightly though, it was a very brutal war, for both sides).

Next big conflict came 67, when allegedly Israel attacked first, though it's widely accepted that if Israel wouldn't attack they'd be attacked in a matter of days. In one of the most daring military operations, all opposition was defeated in 6 days. We're talking about one country vs three directly, and many more indirectly. Altogether the opposition consisted of about 10 countries. The aftermath of the operation greatly expanded Israel's borders and allowed safe passage from Jerusalem (the capital) to Tel-Aviv (the hub), and also acquiring the Golan heights as a strategical point, and acquiring Sinai peninsula.

At 73, the Israel army was at a relaxed state (too relaxed). They were basically surprised by all their neighbors altogether (some people knew, but let's not get into details here). In the first two days the war seemed lost. However some extremely daring moves on all fronts (and the overconfidence of Syria) allowed Israel to get back on its feet, conquer almost all of southern Syria including the Golan heights, while in Egypt up to Suez canal (including all of Sinai).

The move left the opposition stunned, and they had to surrender. Eventually, Israel willingly withdrew its forces from southern Syria, but kept the Golan heights as a strategical point, to ensure that this wouldn't happen again.

A few years later a peace treaty was signed with Egypt while returning them all their lands. In the 90's a peace treaty was signed with Jordan.

 

There were other military conflicts, but IMHO they're less important when confronting the question: "Does Israel deserve to exist here?".

Given all this encapsulated data, I'd say yes. All of Israel's neighbors brought this on themselves. You don't loose a war and then QQ, especially when you attacked first.

 

What about the Palestinians? One might ask. Well, the Palestinians were "formed" at around the 70's. But most of the Arab countries didn't really care for them, and just used (and still use) them as leverage against Israel.

Jordan on the other hand was outright hostile towards the Palestinians and just butchered them (Black September or something like this).

The biggest mistake of Israel was that they neglected them. This built the grounds for radical movements. If you'll notice, all the countries that "help" the Palestinians, aren't actually helping them. They just supply them with weapons.

That's probably not the best way to help them given their current state...

Today, Egypt doesn't care much for them, and really doesn't want them on their territories either. Some countries are "paka paka", while the others supply weapons.

Sometimes Israel, EU and the US try to help, but something always goes wrong. In most cases the extremists are behind the undermining (for instance, they constantly steal funds, and it's a fact that no one faces).

 

IMHO, if someone really wants to help they should less QQ about how brutal Israel is towards the terrorist organizations, and really do the helping. Shouting at Israel doesn't help, it only hampers the situation, because Israel is not going away. They have nowhere left to go. Simple as that.

Edited June 1, 2010 by surreal

[Nemo0071]

If I'm mistaken, i.e. if that land is rightfully Israel's soil, I'm also open to sources that you might point me towards. I'm quite interested in this subject.

Though it might seem blunt answering a question that wasn't directed to me, it means no offense. (...)

No, not at all. I appreciate it. Doesn't really give much background for the "why"s and "how"s, only the "who"s and "when"s but it's more than I hoped for.

[lord of flies]

^ In all seriousness, why not?

 

Because they're not Israel.

 

This is what I've been banging on about for ten pages. Israel is important, it stands for something bigger. It's Fort Laramie, a dirty, battered outpost of Western democracy. Those who would see a shadow of Iranian-style dictatorship descend over the entire region want it destroyed. They are using multiple tactics, including this old favourite from the KGB playbook of using 'progressive elements.' Am I suggesting that this flotilla is on a hotline to Tehran? Hell, no. Am I suggesting that the European liberal left is being subtly manipulated, that it's acidic self-hate is being hi-jacked? Hell yes.

Ah ha ha ha ha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

 

*wipes tears from eyes*

 

No.

[lord of flies]

Look out everybody! This ship full of people bringing food to a blockaded country isn't a collection of activists who feel solidarity with the oppressed Palestinian people and act on it. This ship is a secret Muslim special intelligence operation to make Israel look bad.

Edited June 1, 2010 by lord of flies

[Gorgon]

If you are suggesting that the goal of challenging the Israeli blockade was not also to make Israel look bad, well that's pretty naive. It wasn't just a relief convoy, it was a relief convoy/ media stunt. The activists expected to use passive resistance, forcing the Israeli authority to be heavy handed in their arrests, pretty much how it played out on the other ships.

 

Add a couple of body bags and the story really starts to have legs.

[lord of flies]

If you are suggesting that the goal of challenging the Israeli blockade was not also to make Israel look bad, well that's pretty naive. It wasn't just a relief convoy, it was a relief convoy/ media stunt. The activists expected to use passive resistance, forcing the Israeli authority to be heavy handed in their arrests, pretty much how it played out on the other ships.

 

Add a couple of body bags and the story really starts to have legs.

It still doesn't make you some sort of secret double agent operative on behalf of the pan-Muslim conspiracy to overthrow the liberal western democracy/apartheid state of Israel.

[Gfted1]

Activists send new boat to challenge Gaza blockade

 

Jun 1, 1:30 PM (ET)

 

By AMY TEIBEL

 

JERUSALEM (AP) - Pro-Palestinian activists sent another boat to challenge Israel's blockade of the Gaza Strip on Tuesday and Egypt declared it was temporarily opening a crossing into the Palestinian territory after a raid on an aid flotilla that ended with Israeli soldiers killing nine activists.

 

The raid provoked ferocious international condemnation of Israel, raised questions at home, and appeared likely to increase pressure to end the blockade that has deepened the poverty of the 1.5 million Palestinians in the strip. Turkey, which unofficially supported the flotilla, has led the criticism, calling the Israeli raid a "bloody massacre."

 

Amid the increasing tensions, the Israeli military said it carried out an airstrike in Gaza on Tuesday, and an Islamic militant group said three of its members were killed after firing rockets into southern Israel. Israeli authorities say the rockets landed in open areas and caused no injuries.

 

Two militants infiltrating into Israel from Gaza were killed in a separate incident Tuesday, the military said.

 

The pro-Palestinian flotilla had been headed to Gaza with tens of thousands of tons of aid that Israel bans from Gaza. After days of warnings, Israel intercepted the flotilla under the cover of darkness early Monday, setting off a violent melee that left nine activists dead and dozens of people, including seven soldiers, wounded. Most of the dead were believed to be Turks.

 

Israel said 679 people were arrested, and about 50 of those had left the country voluntarily. Hundreds who refused to cooperate remained jailed and subject to deportation.

 

Israel says the Gaza blockade is needed to prevent the Iranian-backed Hamas, which has fired thousands of rockets into the Jewish state, from building up its arsenal. It also wants to pressure Hamas to free an Israeli soldier it has held for four years.

 

Critics say the blockade has failed to weaken Hamas but further strapped an already impoverished economy. It also has prevented Gaza from rebuilding after a devastating Israeli military offensive early last year.

 

Egypt, which has enforced the blockade with Israel since Hamas militants seized control of Gaza in 2007, said it was opening the border for several days to allow aid into the area.

 

The governor of Egyptian's northern Sinai district, Murad Muwafi, said it was a humanitarian gesture meant to "alleviate the suffering of our Palestinian brothers after the Israeli attack."

 

Several thousand Gazans made a furious rush to the Egyptian border, hoping to take advantage of a rare chance to escape the blockaded territory.

 

Cars with suitcases piled on their roofs streamed to the border, while many others lugged overstuffed bags on foot. Dozens of Hamas police with automatic weapons are patrolling the area to maintain order.

 

"We are working to help residents take advantage of this opportunity," said Hamas Interior Ministry spokesman Ihab Ghussein. "We hope it will be open all the time, not just as a response to yesterday's events."

 

Greta Berlin said the Free Gaza Movement, which organized the flotilla, would not be deterred and that another cargo boat was off the coast of Italy en route to Gaza. A second boat carrying about three dozen passengers is expected to join it, Berlin said. She said the two boats would arrive in the region late this week or early next week.

 

"This initiative is not going to stop," she said from the group's base in Cyprus. "We think eventually Israel will get some kind of common sense. They're going to have to stop the blockade of Gaza, and one of the ways to do this is for us to continue to send the boats."

 

Protests have erupted in a number of Muslim countries including Turkey, which unofficially supported the flotilla, Indonesia and Malaysia, where a Palestinian man slashed himself outside the American Embassy.

 

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, an outspoken critic of Israel, told lawmakers Tuesday that the Israeli raid was an attack "on international law, the conscience of humanity and world peace."

 

"This bloody massacre by Israel on ships that were taking humanitarian aid to Gaza deserves every kind of curse," he said, demanding that Israel immediately halt its "inhumane" blockade of Gaza.

 

Turkey's Foreign Ministry said four Turkish citizens were confirmed slain by Israeli commandos and another five were also believed to be Turks. Israeli authorities were still trying to confirm their nationalities.

 

Thousands of pro-Islamic and nationalist Turks have poured into the streets in Istanbul and Ankara since the report of the Israeli raid. Protesters with Palestinian and Turkish flags shouted "Down with Israel!" outside Israeli diplomatic missions.

 

Within Israel, the raid sparked intense debate over why the military operation went awry.

 

Israel sent commandos onto the six ships carrying nearly 700 activists after mission organizers ignored the government's call to bring the cargo to an Israeli port, where it would be inspected and transferred to Gaza. In most cases, the passengers quickly surrendered. But on the largest ship, the Turkish-flagged Mavi Marmara, the forces encountered resistance.

 

Israeli commandos rappelled on ropes from a helicopter one by one and army videos showed them being attacked by angry activists with metal rods and one soldier being thrown off the ship. Others jumped overboard to escape the angry mob. Israeli authorities said they were attacked by knives, clubs and live fire from two pistols wrested from soldiers. The soldiers then opened fire, killing nine.

 

Israeli military analysts said it was a mistake to send commandos to board the ship and the military could have used non-lethal weapons such as tear gas. They also said the intelligence-gathering was faulty.

 

Retired Gen. Shlomo Brom asked why the ships' engines weren't sabotaged instead.

 

"There were certain objectives to this operation. One was not to let the vessels get to Gaza, but the other objective was to do it without any damage to Israel's image," Brom told The Associated Press. "Certainly it failed."

 

The daily Maariv, in a front-page headline, called the raid a "debacle."

 

Sabine Haddad, spokeswoman for the Israeli Interior Ministry, said 679 people were arrested and handed deportation orders. By midafternoon Tuesday, some 50 people had left the country voluntarily. But hundreds refused to cooperate and were sent to jail.

 

"The rest said they wanted to go to jail and are at Beersheba jail going through a process of deportation," she said. She said judges were hearing the cases and that almost everyone would be expelled within the next few days.

 

She said more than half of those arrested were from Turkey, with others coming from more than 30 other countries, including Britain, Algeria, Jordan, Kuwait, Germany and the U.S. Israeli police said four Arab Israeli citizens would face criminal charges.

 

Israel did not allow access to the activists, but a handful who were deported arrived home Tuesday, including a Turkish woman and her 1-year-old son, six Greeks and three German lawmakers.

 

"There was a massacre on board," said the woman, Nilufer Cetin, whose husband, Ekrem, is the ship's engineer and was still in Israeli custody. "The ship turned into a lake of blood."

 

Turkey said it was sending three ambulance planes to Israel to return 20 Turkish activists injured in the operation and had other aircraft ready to get other activists. About 400 Turks took part in the flotilla.

 

The flotilla was the ninth attempt by sea to breach the blockade Israel and Egypt imposed after Hamas violently seized the territory. Israel allowed five seaborne aid shipments through but snapped the blockade shut after its 2009 war in Gaza.

 

There was little call in Israel for an end to the blockade. Israelis have little sympathy for Gaza, which sent thousands of rockets and mortar rounds crashing into Israel for years before last year's war.

 

Tensions along the Israeli-Gaza border were tense following the naval raid.

 

The Iranian-backed Islamic Jihad said three of its fighters were killed Tuesday shortly after firing rockets into southern Israel. Israeli authorities say the rockets landed in open areas and caused no injuries.

 

The Israeli military confirmed its airstrike, and Gaza's chief medical examiner also said there were three deaths.

 

On Tuesday morning, the Israeli military said Gaza militants infiltrated Israel and exchanged fire with troops. Israeli rescue services said two militants were killed, but the military would not immediately confirm that.

 

Oh look, they're poking the lion with a stick again. Help me puzzle this out. If Egypt has opened their border to Palestine, why dont they just dock there and move the relief supplies that way? You know, to help their oppressed brothers.

[Wrath of Dagon]

If you are suggesting that the goal of challenging the Israeli blockade was not also to make Israel look bad, well that's pretty naive. It wasn't just a relief convoy, it was a relief convoy/ media stunt. The activists expected to use passive resistance, forcing the Israeli authority to be heavy handed in their arrests, pretty much how it played out on the other ships.

 

Add a couple of body bags and the story really starts to have legs.

You don't need to bring a boatful of weapons to use passive resistance. Clearly many on that ship wanted violence from the start. Unless you're talking about the European activists, that may be true.

[lord of flies]

You don't need to bring a boatful of weapons to use passive resistance. Clearly many on that ship wanted violence from the start. Unless you're talking about the European activists, that may be true.

So because my father owns a gun and keeps it in his house, he "want violence"? Nice to know. I assume that, being the pacifistic sort yourself, you don't own any firearms?

[Gorgon]

We don't actually know if there were boxes of weapons or not. I wouldn't exactly call the IDF a reliable source in this. In any case the passengers were a very diverse group, and it wouldn't surprise me if there were at least some who are ecstatic about how all this played out. The political and popular reaction must be an activists wet dream.

[Gorgon]

If you are suggesting that the goal of challenging the Israeli blockade was not also to make Israel look bad, well that's pretty naive. It wasn't just a relief convoy, it was a relief convoy/ media stunt. The activists expected to use passive resistance, forcing the Israeli authority to be heavy handed in their arrests, pretty much how it played out on the other ships.

 

Add a couple of body bags and the story really starts to have legs.

[Gorgon]

ok that's pretty odd. I didn't repost that.

[surreal]

So because my father owns a gun and keeps it in his house, he "want violence"? Nice to know. I assume that, being the pacifistic sort yourself, you don't own any firearms?

 

Your father isn't a suspect. For instance he didn't blow up civilian buses...

Weapons for self defense? Come'on, don't fall for that cheap slogan.

Who was going to attack them? Pirates??? The Kraken?????

 

At a much earlier stage it was clearly stated, no extremists == we'll only check the cargo and let you go.

On the other hand they could go through Egypt! But they know better, Egypt doesn't play games. If they would've smell the least of amount gunpowder or even the slightest clue of a cold weapon, it would end in a whole different way.

Complete lockdown, anyone tries to run, shoot to kill. No supplies for Gaza for at least a month.

 

But hey, look what happened in the meantime, all the supplies have safely arrived to Gaza. Israel moved them personally. Extremists either in hospitals or in body bags. Non extremists will be allowed to enter once they pass security.

But it's not real news anymore because there is no more shooting. Way better to ignore it altogether!

Edited June 1, 2010 by surreal

[Gromnir]

no doubt some interesting comments has been made, but as lof has entered the thread, we will ignore henceforth.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wrath of Dagon]

Probably too late, but just ignore LoF.

 

Here's an article from the Israeli perspective: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/within-israel...essons-learned/

Edited June 1, 2010 by Wrath of Dagon

[lord of flies]

Your father isn't a suspect. For instance he didn't blow up civilian buses...

Neither did these activists.

Weapons for self defense? Come'on, don't fall for that cheap slogan.

Who was going to attack them? Pirates??? The Kraken?????

Maybe some Israeli Commandos? Just a thought.

no doubt some interesting comments has been made, but as lof has entered the thread, we will ignore henceforth.

Truly pathetic.

[Altered Idol]

" This is just the latest incident in a long list of actions that would have been declared and outrage if conducted by say Iran or another "Axis of Evil" country."

 

Oh, please. There is a lot of cries of outrage here.

 

btw, There's more likely to be somehting done here than with NK or Iran which most of the world seem to excuse them. *shrug*

 

 

"which as far as I know was Palestinian/Arabic land originally"

 

No, this is a myth. This was not Palestinian land originally. In fact, the Palestinians as a group are relatively new. Also, you want to talk about how Palestinians are treated poorly, just ask their fellow Arabs.

 

There was barely any sort of response to the whole passport forgery incident. The Israeli ambassdor to the UK got a talking to and a single diplomat was evicted from the UK.

 

And this is after Israelis has already used faked British passports in the late 80's early 90's to do a similar sort of thing. So after promising their allies they wouldnt do it again after the first time, guess what they did???

 

Yep, they went and did it again. And all they got was a slap on the wrist.

 

The reaction to this incident has been alot louder but the rhetoric from the western governments is still the same. There is no accountablity with regards to Israeli and that is what I have a problem with.

 

I'm not a supporter of Hamas or an apologist for their cause. All I want is for ALL governments and organisations to be held accountable for their actions, good or bad.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Altered Idol

[surreal]

Your father isn't a suspect. For instance he didn't blow up civilian buses...

Neither did these activists.

Can you also vouch for the extremists to not blow up anything (or fire rockets, etc...)?

Is there any reason for them being on that boat other than provocative? Family reunion? Hardly...

Weapons for self defense? Come'on, don't fall for that cheap slogan.

Who was going to attack them? Pirates??? The Kraken?????

Maybe some Israeli Commandos? Just a thought.

Better get your facts straightened out. No activists were hurt, only the extremists.

I hope that you don't fell bad that no activists were hurt, because now you can't blame Israel for shooting innocents.

 

@Altered Idol

I think you should start with Russia and not with Israel. They have a lot more answering to do, but I don't really see people (and especially governments) demanding answers from them.

Oh and in the 90's there was so much fun in Russia, especially in Chechnya! Oh, that oil line brings up long forgotten memories. 80's also was a lot of fun btw, Afghan.

Don't wake the sleeping bear? Is that it?

Edited June 1, 2010 by surreal

[lord of flies]

Weapons for self defense? Come'on, don't fall for that cheap slogan.

Who was going to attack them? Pirates??? The Kraken?????

Maybe some Israeli Commandos? Just a thought.

Better get your facts straightened out. No activists were hurt, only the extremists.

I hope that you don't fell bad that no activists were hurt, because now you can't blame Israel for shooting innocents.

Oh, I think I get it. If you jump on a boat in international waters (illegal, by the way) and open fire on civilians who are acting in self-defense, it is OK, so long as you remember to call them all "extremists" afterward.

[surreal]

^

Not being able to tell between an extremist and a civilian acting in self defense == being blind.

 

BTW, nothing illegal if they're suspect.

I can't put my finger on it exactly, but in very vague details it goes like this:

Some time ago there was a ship that was suspect of transferring weapons, not in Russia's interests and not far from Russia itself.

Guess what happened next? Oh, and they were in international waters.

 

Illegal you say. Hmm... Maybe you should protest against Russia also?

You know, some Uranium may do you good, like that former KGB agent maybe...

Edited June 1, 2010 by surreal

[lord of flies]

^

Not being able to tell between an extremist and a civilian acting in self defense == being blind.

Okay, please. Go ahead. What was it that made these people extremists worthy of being shot?

BTW, nothing illegal if they're suspect.

No, that's not how it works.

[Altered Idol]

@ Surreal.

 

This topic is about Israel hence why I was focusing on Israel. Its not a personal attack or vendetta against them.

 

I'll repeat my point. ALL governments and organisations need to be held accountable for their actions. Russia is included in that along with Israel, China, the US and every other country.

 

When countries and organisations can evade scrutiny for their actions, then that is very troublesome. That goes for any country.

 

Israel is not a special case. All countries need to be held to account for their actions, I only mention Israel and its a main topic in this thread.