Mexifornia

[Volourn]

"There's nothing wrong with wearing an American flag in America"

 

'Nough said.

 

 

"but there is something obnoxious about a group of kids planning to wear them on a day on which they know it will offend people, whether or not being offended is a reasonable response."

 

Some people deserve to be offended. People who hate Amerika yet live in Amerika are one of those groups. Nazis are another.

[Oblarg]

"There's nothing wrong with wearing an American flag in America"

 

'Nough said.

 

 

"but there is something obnoxious about a group of kids planning to wear them on a day on which they know it will offend people, whether or not being offended is a reasonable response."

 

Some people deserve to be offended. People who hate Amerika yet live in Amerika are one of those groups. Nazis are another.

 

That's a rather large logical jump there. Being unreasonably offended by the American flag on a certain day because you think it's disrespecting your culture is one thing. Hating America is something quite different. Did you seriously compare them to Nazis? Come on, you can't be serious.

 

If a group of people at your school have an unreasonable hatred for red shirts with yellow polka-dots, and a group of kids all wear red shirts with yellow polka-dots on the same day for the purpose of annoying them, it's obnoxious, but shouldn't be punishable. This is essentially the same situation.

 

I don't think you're in the position to judge what people "deserve to be offended."

[Hurlshort]

I hope volourn didn't drive away all the reasonable folks that were part of this discussion.

[Volourn]

People who bash people for wearing their country's colours inside their country are not reasonable people. I say this not being the most patriotic person at that.

 

It's beyond ludicrous to bash Amerikans for wearing the Amerikan flag in Amerika. Just like it be ludicrous to bash Kanadians wearing the Kanadian flag in Kanada or the Iranian flag in Iran. No matter the day. No matter the scenario. No matter what. It's just not reasonable to bash them and label them scumbags over this.

[Oblarg]

People who bash people for wearing their country's colours inside their country are not reasonable people. I say this not being the most patriotic person at that.

 

It's beyond ludicrous to bash Amerikans for wearing the Amerikan flag in Amerika. Just like it be ludicrous to bash Kanadians wearing the Kanadian flag in Kanada or the Iranian flag in Iran. No matter the day. No matter the scenario. No matter what. It's just not reasonable to bash them and label them scumbags over this.

 

And now we've gone in a circle.

[Calax]

Volo, why do you assume that somebody saying that "Don't be a jackass and specifically wear something to get somebody pissed off" is anti-american?

[Hiro Protagonist]

And now we've gone in a circle.

 

After 15 pages in this thread.

[Amentep]

And, oh, btw, a school having a dress code is not the law. It can be overruled by the law, and I bet if someone at her campus would pushf rot he ability to ware a shirt with the Amerikan flag on it they would no doubt win it school 'law' or not.

 

Schools are NOT above the law. That's why they their by laws overturned and once and awhile when they make a garbage by-law (not saying your wife's campus has one but it's not a law).

 

That said, a dress code in and of itself is not against the law either. And certainly if there were a legitimate reason to ban colors on clothing that included the colors of the American flag, it would probably be upheld. There's no law that says a citizen of the US is entitled to wear the flag (there is a flag code that says its not really "proper display" to have the flag on clothing though).

 

That said, that situation is not this situation.

 

Only hateful anti Amerikans would bash Amerikans wearing an Amerikan flag in Amerika.

 

friggin' ridiculous.

 

Who is bashing "Amerikans wearing an Amerikan flag in Amerika"? All I've seen is people saying that context is important and that better judgement could have been exercised on the behalf of all parties involved.

[Wrath of Dagon]

If a group of people at your school have an unreasonable hatred for red shirts with yellow polka-dots, and a group of kids all wear red shirts with yellow polka-dots on the same day for the purpose of annoying them, it's obnoxious, but shouldn't be punishable. This is essentially the same situation.

No it's not, there's a fundamental difference between a national flag and yellow polka-dots (unless the national flag happens to be yellow polka-dots of course).

[Oblarg]

If a group of people at your school have an unreasonable hatred for red shirts with yellow polka-dots, and a group of kids all wear red shirts with yellow polka-dots on the same day for the purpose of annoying them, it's obnoxious, but shouldn't be punishable. This is essentially the same situation.

No it's not, there's a fundamental difference between a national flag and yellow polka-dots (unless the national flag happens to be yellow polka-dots of course).

 

In the context of being decent to other people, not really. The people have an irrational dislike for the American flag in a certain context. Intentionally wearing it in that context for the purpose of irking them is being obnoxious. Anyone who doesn't see that needs to learn some social skills. Put your nationalistic pride aside, they don't "hate america" and aren't going to ruin your country.

[RPGmasterBoo]

If a group of people at your school have an unreasonable hatred for red shirts with yellow polka-dots, and a group of kids all wear red shirts with yellow polka-dots on the same day for the purpose of annoying them, it's obnoxious, but shouldn't be punishable. This is essentially the same situation.

No it's not, there's a fundamental difference between a national flag and yellow polka-dots (unless the national flag happens to be yellow polka-dots of course).

 

In the context of being decent to other people, not really. The people have an irrational dislike for the American flag in a certain context. Intentionally wearing it in that context for the purpose of irking them is being obnoxious. Anyone who doesn't see that needs to learn some social skills. Put your nationalistic pride aside, they don't "hate america" and aren't going to ruin your country.

 

What about the other side of the argument: are they entitled to have an irrational dislike of the American flag in America, and threaten violence to people wearing it?

 

Because if they are, then you could just as easily say that Americans are entitled to dislike the Mexican flag and threaten violence to anyone wearing it.

 

You're ignoring the other side, which has indirectly threatened violence, provocation or no. If the schoolyard antics don't qualify as threats, the 200 angry marching protesters "demanding respect" definitely do.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Why should you be decent to people who find your flag offensive? That's the kind of self flagellation that's become so popular in the West, and will probably be its doom.

[Oblarg]

Why should you be decent to people who find your flag offensive? That's the kind of self flagellation that's become so popular in the West, and will probably be its doom.

 

Because it's your obligation as a human being to be nice to other people. I seriously doubt they "hate America," I think it's much more likely that they're just naive and haven't really thought about how ridiculous their reaction is. These aren't people who bear you ill will, regardless of whether or not they react irrationally to something that shouldn't be offensive. It's not self-flagellation at all, it's what's expected of you if you want to be successful in any social interaction. You're oversimplifying the situation.

 

Anyone who thinks that this is a serious danger to our country is deluded.

[Hurlshort]

We all agree that the reaction to the US flag on Cinco De Mayo is not a good one, so how can we enact a change there?

 

Because I'm pretty sure throwing it in their faces and saying deal with it is super ineffective.

[Volourn]

Really simple. If you are offended by seeing someone wear the Amerikan flag in Amerika leave the country. Period.

 

I don't see this being handled like this in any other country.

 

btw, It's not about offending someone. It's about them being unreasonably offended.

 

I don't believe bowing to the pressures of the unreasonably offended as morally acceptable.

 

These kids wearing the shirts didn't absolutely nothing wrong. Those bashing them are anti Amerikan or self hating Amerikans.

 

but, hey, I guess those Montreal fans who wear their Canadien jerseys in Puittsburgh are just trolls looking for a reaction and are scumbags. And, it's their fualt if they get bet up by offended Pens fans. L0LZ

[Oblarg]

Really simple. If you are offended by seeing someone wear the Amerikan flag in Amerika leave the country. Period.

 

I don't see this being handled like this in any other country.

 

btw, It's not about offending someone. It's about them being unreasonably offended.

 

I don't believe bowing to the pressures of the unreasonably offended as morally acceptable.

 

These kids wearing the shirts didn't absolutely nothing wrong. Those bashing them are anti Amerikan or self hating Amerikans.

 

but, hey, I guess those Montreal fans who wear their Canadien jerseys in Puittsburgh are just trolls looking for a reaction and are scumbags. And, it's their fualt if they get bet up by offended Pens fans. L0LZ

 

Whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh.

 

Do you actually read what I post, or do you just enjoy ranting?

[Hurlshort]

How often do you think these kids coordinate their US flag apparel during the rest of the school year, anyways?

[Oblarg]

How often do you think these kids coordinate their US flag apparel during the rest of the school year, anyways?

 

I don't think anyone can reasonably doubt that it was an intentional attempt to bait a response.

[Monte Carlo]

Because it's your obligation as a human being to be nice to other people.

 

No it isn't. Honestly.

[Meshugger]

Why should you be decent to people who find your flag offensive? That's the kind of self flagellation that's become so popular in the West, and will probably be its doom.

 

Because it's your obligation as a human being to be nice to other people.

 

That is a personal philosophy that i wish that many would follow, but alas not many do. That is why there is a system of laws to begin with. But since it is a personal framework for social conduct, it can not be made mandatory to others.

 

Honestly, have you even worked in the private sector? And i do not mean the local supermarket, i am talking about multinational and global coorperations here. There you can most easily see the manifestation of this. You would be surprised how fast this obligation is thrown out of the window. The only obligation to be nice (mostly to customers) is in the self interest of the person/company to get more money/power/influence. Not by a sense of altruism.

[213374U]

Why should you be decent to people who find your flag offensive? That's the kind of self flagellation that's become so popular in the West, and will probably be its doom.

 

Because it's your obligation as a human being to be nice to other people.

 

That is a personal philosophy that i wish that many would follow, but alas not many do. That is why there is a system of laws to begin with. But since it is a personal framework for social conduct, it can not be made mandatory to others.

 

Honestly, have you even worked in the private sector? And i do not mean the local supermarket, i am talking about multinational and global coorperations here. There you can most easily see the manifestation of this. You would be surprised how fast this obligation is thrown out of the window. The only obligation to be nice (mostly to customers) is in the self interest of the person/company to get more money/power/influence. Not by a sense of altruism.

Or, alternatively, just drive in any highway.

[Hurlshort]

Ah, but a school is not a supermarket or a highway. It is not even public property, as so many people seem to misunderstand.

 

The purpose of schools is not just to teach reading and math. Social interaction and being able to function in a community are huge parts of the educational process. They are addressed in the wording of school policies and mission statements. So basically:

 

It is your obligation to be nice to people while at school.

 

If you fail to do that, you can expect that life will be made difficult for you. Again, I think the administrator could have handled this with much more tact, but I think an action was necessary.

[213374U]

It is false that "not being nice to other people" equates to "not being able to function in a community" -- much like being an asshat at the wheel doesn't mean you must break the traffic code or be otherwise unable to drive.

 

I'd like you to define what exactly is "being nice", and how this is written into your school's conduct code, thus making it an obligation, rather than just one of the pedagogical guidelines teachers adhere to.

Edited May 14, 2010 by 213374U

[Meshugger]

It is false that "not being nice to other people" equates to "not being able to function in a community" -- much like being an asshat at the wheel doesn't mean you must break the traffic code or be otherwise unable to drive.

 

I'd like you to define what exactly is "being nice", and how this is written into your school's conduct code, thus making it an obligation, rather than just one of the pedagogical guidelines teachers adhere to.

 

Yeah, pretty much. "Being nice" can be very lofty, and is up to a lot of interpretation.

[Hurlshort]

It is false that "not being nice to other people" equates to "not being able to function in a community" -- much like being an asshat at the wheel doesn't mean you must break the traffic code or be otherwise unable to drive.

 

I'd like you to define what exactly is "being nice", and how this is written into your school's conduct code, thus making it an obligation, rather than just one of the pedagogical guidelines teachers adhere to.

 

Ok, here you go:

 

Our Mission statement:

 

"A Tradition of Excellence in a Caring Environment"

 

Our Honor code:

 

"School has a strong academic and moral reputation. Is is the student's responsibility to uphold this reputation by being honest at all times."

 

Discipline code:

 

"Students are expected to behave and conduct themselves in a manner that enhances the normal educational process as they continue to grow in maturity and responsibility. Students need to assume an active role in their educational program in order to make it a meaningful experience. Students are expected to (1) exercise self-control; (2) recognize and respect the rights of others; (3) respect school property and the property of others; (4) learn and demonstrate appropriate social behavior; and (5) follow each teacher's classroom standards"

 

Here is the district mission statement:

 

THE MISSION OF THE SCHOOL DISTRICT IS TO PROVIDE A CHILD-CENTERED ENVIRONMENT THAT CULTIVATES CHARACTER, FOSTERS ACADEMIC EXCELLENCE, AND EMBRACES DIVERSITY. DISTRICT FAMILIES, COMMUNITY, AND STAFF JOIN AS PARTNERS TO DEVELOP CREATIVE, EXEMPLARY LEARNERS WITH THE SKILLS AND ENTHUSIASM TO CONTRIBUTE TO A CONSTANTLY CHANGING GLOBAL SOCIETY.

 

This is fairly standard stuff at every school. The discipline code is the most telling part, as the boys were not adhering to number 1,2, and 4 when they intentionally baited other students.