Deus Ex 3

[entrerix]

I shall now unleash my superior intelligence on you and state to you sub humans that intelligence has nothing to do with games, like other members of the master race have already said earlier. Everybody who thinks different is a stupid person.

 

wow this was a way better response, i should have let you go first

[Oner]

They're not stupid!

 

They're called dum-dums!

[Thorton_AP]

JA2 v1.13 had the best inventory system of all time, yo.

 

Their changes to JA2's inventory system were positively phenomenal! Love it SO much.

[Calax]

I thought we were discussing game complexity, not who has bigger balls.

Well, we all know it's me and my zerg overseers.

 

That said, there's dumbing down and simplifying (at least IMO)

 

Dumbing down is taking something and making it so that all you need to do is whack your face on a keyboard and you're winning (we'll call this holy paladins)

 

Simplification is taking an extremely complex mechanic with hidden triggers and randomness up the yin yang that's a core part of the gameplay experiance, and making it visible, and more predictable so you don't have to to six hand stands and then wiggle yourself in a certain way to maximize your potential (lets call this boomkins)

 

Holy paladins was a stupid thing to do because it removed the difference between players skill levels. If you set two different people up with the same game situation and said "go" they'd be very very very very close in terms of performance simply because they only really need to press one button. Boomkins were in the same boat but for the opposite reasons. You could set two people down at vastly different skill levels and they'd have very different numbers almost by chance.

 

Now, you're all wondering why I'm using these names, and probably a good portion of you have guessed, but these are world of warcraft specs/classes. Holy paladins up until very recently healed simply by laying down a few spells to spread the love, and then mashing the "flash of light" spell. So basically I could have taught a 6 year old how to play as good as somebody who knew wtf they were doing (but not necessairly those who lived in the math books for this game). Boomkins are a spec for druids that relates to magical casting, and had a really arcane "eclipse" mechanic that wasn't totally random, but pretty close (there were things like internal cooldowns and such going on... I didn't actually play the class). This was to the point where there could be serious variation from fight to fight for these guys simply because of the procs not working for them.

 

However, with the most recent patch (the Cataclysm pre-patch that gave us the Cataclysm mechanics to toy with) both of these issues were fixed. Holy paladins got 4 more buttons to press to heal that were actually worth hitting, and boomkins had their mechanic actually become something controllable. So the dumbing down was undone, and the boomkins were simplified to be more representative of the player.

 

 

Tl;dr version:

Dumbing down=facerolling

Simplifying=easy to pick up, hard to master.

 

We always want the latter.

[Humanoid]

(Italicising the WoW specific mechanics so people unfamiliar with WoW can ignore them - the rest although WoW in context makes sense generically. Or just ignore the big block of text and skip to the bold.)

 

 

Not to argue against the point, but back when I played WoW (I haven't since 4.0) I had two primary characters for raiding - coincidentally a holy paladin and a moonkin which I used depending on which role was required. I'll genericise as necessary.

 

I had to yell at my co-paladins to not nearly having the raw output necessary for the more difficult stuff. Now granted this wasn't at the bleeding edge of raiding - ended up with 7-8 hard mode bosses done by the time we called it a day - but the point is that when we first entered ICC I was outperforming the others by 100-200%. Digging deeper I found it was a combination of:

 

The examples won't mean anything to non-WoW players but the general fault highlighted does.

 

a) using the wrong skills - Flash of Light instead of Holy Light (yes, a choice of two spells and a lot still get it wrong)

b) using the wrong equipment - Intelligence stacking combined with Flash of Light (Flash of Light is only viable with the spell power gearing sub-spec), or Spell Power combined with Holy Light

c) not using skills often enough - a lot of downtime often due to a combination of mana conservation (often due to incorrect gear) or fear of overhealing (an outdated mechanic)

d) poor use of support/supplementary skills - incorrect target selection for Beacon of Light, poor timing of mana recovery spell use

 

 

TL;DR: I guess the point here is that while the mechanics were simple and the spells few in number, a lot of players still managed to grossly misuse them. I had to drill them back down to basics and force them to forget their preconceptions to get them working effectively again. Gear full Int, cast Beacon on the tank every 90sec, spam Holy Light, use Divine Plea aggressively Simple instructions but it got them to the point where the tank stopped whinging if I wasn't playing my paladin.

 

 

 

_______________

 

 

I was a sole moonkin in the raid so I don't really have anything much to impart about common player mistakes. However it's actually a neat illustration of ignored and ineffectual complexity. Yes, the moonkin had a lot of tools - however half of them were not effective and therefore suboptimal to use. The result was that in practice it was actually quite simple to play .....provided one had an efficient user interface set up.

 

Install the Squawk and Awe mod. Keep moonfire up, cast Starfall every minute, and pick Wrath or Starfire - whichever one the mod tells you to cast. (Insect Swarm for a few specific bosses only) I could play effectively like this while asleep, something I wouldn't be able to do with the theoretically simpler Holy Paladin.

 

_______________

 

 

If you skipped everything above

 

This is meant to be a simplified tale of two implementations. A dumbed down system which can still be completely misunderstood and butchered, and a complex system rendered moot because the extra complexity could be easily discarded with no ill-effect.

 

I suppose I should try to find a point to my rambling, and I guess it's to say it's not a scale with dumbed-down on one end and complex on the other. It's a 2D plane - with one axis for complexity and the other for implementation. The four corners would be something like: dumb, streamlined, intricate and dog's breakfast.

[Hurlshort]

So Humanoid is that guy!

 

Seriously, it's a video game, if you are going to get yelled at by some kid because you aren't maximizing your potential or whatever, I don't see why anyone would want to play.

[Humanoid]

So Humanoid is that guy!

 

Seriously, it's a video game, if you are going to get yelled at by some kid because you aren't maximizing your potential or whatever, I don't see why anyone would want to play.

 

Unfortunately it was just a turn of phrase. Our raids were text only. Feel free to substitute "yell at" with "have a pleasant private text discussion with."

 

 

 

Probably one of the reasons WoW has now passed me by. Everyone else wants voice comms nowadays, and I don't - I prefer to game while listening to the Thin White Duke and there are some efficiency gains that indeed go too far for me to still classify as having fun. The experience probably peaked around 2007, natch.

Edited November 13, 2010 by Humanoid

[funcroc]

2nd gameplay trailer

New Eurogamer interview

Edited November 18, 2010 by funcroc

[Raithe]

My first thought to the new gameplay vid was how some of the look of the animation reminded me of a toned down Borderlands almost... although the 2nd time I played it through it didn't come across quite as much.. hmm..

[Tale]

Never played the game in question, but given a map the player can see himself and his orientation (or a compass display) you can describe whereabouts they can find the objective no ?

 

I'm not sure if you've played Morrowind, but I'd argue that while major destinations were easy enough to find because they were marked on your world map, smaller destinations were a pain. Navigating the Ashlands in the middle of a red sand storm while constantly being attacked by bird creatures is not fun. The first time I played, I would literally spend hours wandering around trying to find the right location because there are fifteen different crypts, tombs, caves, and ruins that might be described as being 'Southwest of the Ursulaka Camp,' and there aren't signs or land marks.

I both loved and hated that aspect of the game. I would go, follow the directions, enter the cave and explore. I'd spend like half an hour to an hour never finding what I came for.

 

Only for it to turn out it was on top of an unassuming crate at the dungeon entrance.

 

Or that I'm in the wrong bloody dungeon because I made the left turn too late.

 

 

I loved it because it's like I'm being tricked into exploring places I would never have visited anyway. I hated it because I'd never ever figure out I was lost until I start looking it up on the internet.

[Malcador]

Well, they make it easy to see items.

[Purkake]

Looks cool.

[Nepenthe]

2nd gameplay trailer

New Eurogamer interview

That's... not bad, not bad at all.

[Malcador]

Ah ok that highlighting junk is due to an augmentation, my mistake.

[HoonDing]

No, it didn't. This is the map. There are about 200 locations in Morrowind. And while the map was very pretty, I'd argue that finding the giant city on the main road with a bunch of signs pointing the way was not an issue for the average player, so a map that mostly shows major cities and fortifications isn't all that useful.

The map shows all Daedric & Dwemer ruins, all Dunmer fortresses, all Velothi towers & a few bandit caves. That's a pretty big help, since an awful lot of sidequests send you to these locations.

[entrerix]

2nd gameplay trailer

New Eurogamer interview

That's... not bad, not bad at all.

 

i agree, the guys promoting this game sure know how to make it seem awesome. so many things they say makes me think "just like deus ex!" in a warm fuzzy way.

[Rostere]

2nd gameplay trailer

New Eurogamer interview

 

Neat!

[Hell Kitty]

Sweet, sweet inventory tetris:

 

 

21 Augs:

 

[Humodour]

i know i said this way earlier, but I too love inventory tetris, and believe it to be the best type of inventory system implemented in games so far.

 

system shock 2

deus ex

and even resident evil 4

 

all fantastic inventory systems imo, re 4 gets special mention because you can spend money on a larger "briefcase"/inventory grid.

 

Agreed.

[Orogun01]

Is it weird that this game gives me wood?

Edited November 19, 2010 by Orogun01

[Thorton_AP]

Meh to inventory tetris, but all in all the trailer was wowzah IMO.

[Malcador]

Nice to see that inventory system. Still glitz and words at this point, but it might not suck total ass, huzzah!

 

JC was such a downgrade.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Malcador

[Humodour]

Is it weird that this game gives me wood?

 

It doesn't make me erect but it comes close. Get it? Comes?

 

Anyway, it's a shame Obsidian doesn't take a leaf out of the book of these guys and return to their own roots. The market never stopped existing, in fact if anything it got bigger.

[Malcador]

Whose roots is Eidos Montreal getting back to, exactly ?

[Maria Caliban]

Texas is a stupid country.

 

Finally something I can agree with.

 

(i assume the person you lent the game was stupid because you implied that I was only as intelligent as he/she and you probably were not trying to compliment me with your statement)

 

A poor assumption on your part. I don't need the 14 year old to be stupid to insult you, if that's what I was attempting to do. They could be a 14-year-old of average intelligence.

 

Of course, I wasn't attempting to insult or compliment you. The point of my post was that a video game isn't a marker of intelligence. How you get 'Maria is insulting my intelligence because she says a 14-year-old can play a video game I once played' is beyond me.

 

So if a stupid 14 year old can beat deus ex then WHY does the game need to be streamlined further? its already a very playable and beatable game, even for very stupid teenagers (the audience that I assume they are trying to streamline it for)

 

Right, again your assumption. "Video games are tied to intelligence; therefore, any change that I don't like must be because the maker is attempting to dumb it down."

 

You don't like streamlined design? I don't like Ernest Hemingway. But I don't assume that an author who attempts to streamline their characters, descriptions, or plot are dumbing down their story or that people who like Ernest Hemingway are 'stupid teenagers.'

 

They're streamlining aspects of the game because they don't value those aspects of the game as much as you do and they think the game will be more interesting and engaging without those aspects.

 

The elements *you like* aren't the elements *they want.*

 

It has nothing to do with intelligence or stupidity.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Maria Caliban