Dragon Age discussion

[RPGmasterBoo]

Finished DA. The entire endgame is an intentional cakewalk. The darkspawn, previously tough as nails turn into a one shot one kill affair, and you plow through them to get at the Archdemon which turns out to be cakewalk as well. Bah.

The ending cinematic sucks (I died), though the epilogue makes up for it.

 

Final thoughts:

 

The story while holding zero surprises and devoid of any unexpected twists is nevertheless a good example of its type. Someone who always wanted to play a game version of LotR (as seen in the movies, not the book) would probably have a nerdgasm with DA. Intentionally or not, it shares a lot with NWN2 which it beats in general polish and scope, but not by a lot. Remarkable similarities also exist with Mass Effect 2, which is essentially the same tale in a tighter package. Regardless, the game much like the rest of Bioware's stuff post ToB - rides a cliche to death. No matter how well its done it will still remain a cliche and it will be interesting to see for how long will Bioware repackage the same thing over and over again before the bubble bursts.

 

As for the characters I found Sten and Morrigan to be consistent in their personalities and interesting. Alistair had his moments as well. The rest are unremarkable.

 

The gameplay and its advantages and flaws have been discussed to death already, no need to repeat those. Inevitable comparisons with ME2 as the other recent Bioware product don't really lead anywhere. Mass Effect 2 is a tighter package and more fun to play. Dragon Age can be tedious as hell, but it has significantly more depth. It boils down to individual taste, or rather if you like your tale with "elves" or "asari", swords or guns. Obviously ME2 is more for the low IQ console crowd but that aside, its all more or less - the same.

 

What of the inevitable (and long winded) BGII comparisons? As much as I'd like to say Dragon Age has done it, it simply hasn't. The world is neither as fresh or expansive, the characters (barring the two mentioned above) aren't as colorful, the story is much like its main villain - forgettable fodder. You've been to these places, you've done all this stuff before - there's nothing to wonder at, nothing to stoke your imagination. Dragon Age is the product of a decade long, practically set in stone - specific way of developing game and it shows. What it attempts to do well, it does well - but it doesn't attempt anything beyond that. Its the equivalent of a Mc Donalds cheeseburger, a quick fix to deceive your stomach that you've eaten something substantial.

 

The only virtue of Bioware's way of developing role playing games is that they have a steady level of quality, unlike the rest of the industry which for the most part releases trash and calls it progress. Particularly World of Warcraft, which judging by its influence on DA may be the new low standard that could even kill the "hardcore" RPG, or at least change it beyond recognition. (all my accusations of DA being stock fantasy pale in comparison to my positive hatred of WoW and Blizzard)

 

I had the good luck of being able to loan the game. I have no desire to own it, which says a lot how I feel about it.

[Hurlshort]

Loghain faced some pretty huge odds in the DA book and still charged ahead, so if they are maintaining the character, it doesn't fit that he just withdrew strategically. I think the King boinking an Orlais chick is a much bigger motivator, as Loghain had very good reason to hate all Orlesians.

[Monte Carlo]

Abandoning Ferelden makes you pretty cold-hearted about the people who live there, not to mention turnning the countryside into a wasteland.

 

Mwuahahahahhaaaa!!!

 

As for a tougher arch-demon... it's a Bio game right?

[Sannom]

Loghain faced some pretty huge odds in the DA book and still charged ahead, so if they are maintaining the character, it doesn't fit that he just withdrew strategically. I think the King boinking an Orlais chick is a much bigger motivator, as Loghain had very good reason to hate all Orlesians.

 

But where does it say that Cailan was having an affair with the Empress of Orlais? Heck, the second-to-last letter strongly implies that Cailan would never do this to Enora, what's with him refusing downright to consider the possibility of putting Anora to the side? And I like to think that while he didn't get any of Maric's good points, he didn't get any of his biggest flaws : failure as a father, Henry-the-4th-like tendency to have children with every woman out there, etc.

 

Heck, when you look at this family, you gotta wonder : are they related to the Simpsons somehow??? Because all the men of that lineage are morons with no sense of responsibility, and sometimes a really low charisma. Moira was the most remarkable of that bloodline, and she was a woman. As for Maric and Cailan, their wives did all the ruling.

[Volourn]

"The way one is shoehorned into saving some backwater country is annoying. It's perhaps understandable for a Human noble or even a CIty Elf, but for a Dalish or Dwarf?"

 

Eh. Do you think the darkspawn would just target humans. Wrong. Though, in regards to dwarves, they're being attacked anyways so I don't know why they'd be so concerned with helping the people who turned their backs on them and lets the dwarves deal with the darkspawn mess most of the time. As a dwarf, you should be able to say bugger off.

 

 

"The world is neither as fresh"

 

Riiiigggghhhhhhttt... BG2 was 'frsh'. A seuql, and a the 1 millionth game based on a well know IP. 'Fresh' indeed.

 

DA is a superior game to BG2 because it has overall better writing (barring Irenicus being awesome), the origuins, more challenging combat, more combat options so you don't have to mass zerg in melee), C&C, characetrs with actual depth, and is more fresh.

[HoonDing]

more challenging combat, more combat options so you don't have to mass zerg in melee

Are you kidding?

[Guest Slinky]

I don't think Volly is capable of joking.

 

 

LOLZ

 

[RPGmasterBoo]

Disclaimer: this is not a BGII superiority rant, this is an attempt to curb Volurn's lunacy

 

Volourn is a specific creature in his benefit of selective sight.

-For instance, while we would all agree that Dragon Age has fine writing, he ignores that its mostly wasted on a trivial plot.

 

-Again, same for the C&C's - abundant and with real impact but carrying as much emotional weight as the plot will allow. To those who don't but the plot that means - little.

 

-Yet again, the origins were a good idea and offer a certain amount of replay value, while on the other hand its arguable how significant they are overall, or how much impact they truly have on the storyline.

I admit, I wouldn't know having only completed the game with one.

 

-Aaaand again, truly the characters in DA have depth. But, so what? Bioware's characters mostly have the same "sort" of depth and the novelty has worn off long ago. Minsc may not be deep, but we'll see which of DA's NPC's, if any, will be considered one of the most popular in the history of gaming. The characters have to be memorable. That can be through everything from wackiness (like Minsc) to depth (like Morte). If they aren't memorable - they fail.

To DA's credit it has a few memorable characters, but the entire cast is far from the Seven Samurai.

 

-Finally on freshness: yes, the Forgotten Realms are stale.

But lets see:

In BGII your PC goes sails from an immense, sprawling city to an isolated island prison searching for his sister, ending up in a maze used to test the sanity of wizards. After he escapes the party attempts to sail away and is captured and brought to an underwater city in turmoil. From there he makes his way to the underdark, amongst other things infiltrating a drow stronghold and helping a silver dragon. Upon success, he helps out an elven city under siege all the while following and confronting one of video gaming's best villains, and finally settles the matter in a final confrontation. In Hell. That's the short version without optional content.

 

In DA, the PC visits the elves in their forests, solves their issues, the dwarves in their "halls of stone", solves theirs as well, the mages in their tower (need I say what he does there?) and the knights in their medieval castle (again, rectifying everyone's general incompetence). After that he goes all out in a final battle against the orcs and kills a *gasp* dragon.

To DA's credit its not as bad as it sounds, there are a lot of fine twists in it.

 

Conclusion: freshness depends on ideas, not on IPs.

[mr insomniac]

... and it will be interesting to see for how long will Bioware repackage the same thing over and over again before the bubble bursts.

cha-ching!

 

what did he say?

 

cha-ching!

cha-ching!

 

uh, something about how much longer we can continue to make our games.

 

cha-ching!

cha-ching!

cha-ching!

 

Ah, that's what i thought he said.

 

cha-ching! ,etc.

 

The rest are unremarkable.

Your lack of Leliana love is disturbing.

 

Obviously ME2 is more for the low IQ console crowd...

 

Elitist.

 

Too bad you went into the DA experience already disliking it for not being able to topple BG2 from the pedestal you've put that game on. Kept you from enjoying the game for what it was, which was a pretty fun fantasy-based CRPG. Ah well, like you said, you didn't buy it.

[RPGmasterBoo]

The rest are unremarkable.

Your lack of Leliana love is disturbing.

 

Leliana's fractured personality scares me.

 

Obviously ME2 is more for the low IQ console crowd...

 

Elitist.

 

Too bad you went into the DA experience already disliking it for not being able to topple BG2 from the pedestal you've put that game on. Kept you from enjoying the game for what it was, which was a pretty fun fantasy-based CRPG. Ah well, like you said, you didn't buy it.

 

Indeed, thank you.

 

I wouldn't know if it was going to be able to top it, until I tried it did I? It was advertised as a dark and gritty spiritual successor to BG, yadayadayada, so blame it on Bioware's marketing. If they said it was going to be Neverwinter Nights 3 I'd have been lenient. Oh it was fun! Apart from the unavoidable and frustrating parts, which amounted to about a third of the game overall - thereby making certain that I'd never replay it again.

Its a good game. But its not for me, in the same way NWN2 wasn't for me.

[Hurlshort]

Wait a sec Boo, you put 40 hours or so into the game and you don't consider it worth your money? I think you place too little value on your time.

 

Personally if a game keeps me interested for more than a few hours, I consider it worth the price.

[Volourn]

"Your lack of Leliana love is disturbing. "

 

What's to love? She's one of the weakest npcs in the game. That said, his lack of love for certain other npcs is disturbing...

 

Hurlshot: He's the kinda guy you'd find on the Codex - bashes BIO to high heaven but will play the game and enjoy it in secret. He'll repeatedly bash them and when you call him on it he says they're good games andn that he like sthem but the he continues to bash them.

 

Because no npc will ever top Boo. L0LZ

[Gfted1]

Goddamn it I never knew of the Twisted rune quest until googling it up minutes ago. *grumbles* bloody huge game... rrrr

 

Just now finding out about the mighty Staff of the Magi?!?! Heh, youre in for a treat next playthrough.

[Majek]

And here i thought every serious BG2 player knew about Twisted Rune.

[Volourn]

"how much impact they truly have on the storyline."

 

Considering your origin can determine if you can become royalty, yeah, it does impact the storyline.

 

 

"In DA, the PC visits the elves in their forests, solves their issues, the dwarves in their "halls of stone", solves theirs as well, the mages in their tower (need I say what he does there?) and the knights in their medieval castle (again, rectifying everyone's general incompetence). After that he goes all out in a final battle against the orcs and kills a *gasp* dragon.

To DA's credit its not as bad as it sounds, there are a lot of fine twists in it."

 

You described every RPG ever created INCLUDING BG2. Go to various places, help random people, and advance the main plot.

[mr insomniac]

The rest are unremarkable.

Your lack of Leliana love is disturbing.

 

Leliana's fractured personality scares me.

 

Obviously ME2 is more for the low IQ console crowd...

 

Elitist.

 

Too bad you went into the DA experience already disliking it for not being able to topple BG2 from the pedestal you've put that game on. Kept you from enjoying the game for what it was, which was a pretty fun fantasy-based CRPG. Ah well, like you said, you didn't buy it.

 

Indeed, thank you.

 

I wouldn't know if it was going to be able to top it, until I tried it did I? It was advertised as a dark and gritty spiritual successor to BG, yadayadayada, so blame it on Bioware's marketing. If they said it was going to be Neverwinter Nights 3 I'd have been lenient. Oh it was fun! Apart from the unavoidable and frustrating parts, which amounted to about a third of the game overall - thereby making certain that I'd never replay it again.

Its a good game. But its not for me, in the same way NWN2 wasn't for me.

I dunno, I read through some of your posts as you were playing the game, and you had already beaten DA with the 'bg2 is awesome' stick before you even got through the origin part of the story. Maybe I missed something, I'm certainly not gonna go back and dig for quotes. But if i am misrepresenting you, I apologize. let me just say that your summary findings aren't much of a surprise.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Wait a sec Boo, you put 40 hours or so into the game and you don't consider it worth your money? I think you place too little value on your time.

 

Personally if a game keeps me interested for more than a few hours, I consider it worth the price.

 

We differ on the definition of worth. I'm more of the sort that would say something is "worth" it only if its amongst the very best examples of its type. Thus as you might guess, the list of games that are "worth it" is very short indeed. I am quite sad for the time I spent when I was younger, playing dozens upon dozens of games that in retrospect - weren't worth my time. On the other hand, if I haven't I wouldn't know what a good game is would I?

 

I did almost give up on DA though. Besides no one denies the addictive quality of Bioware's games (or is it my conditioning to that type of gameplay?) - the question is how you feel when its over. That's whats lacking, possibly the most irritating thing of all. There's no sense of accomplishment whatsoever, of an experience fresh and original.

I don't play all that much anymore. When I do sit down to play new games, about twice a month - its mostly RPG's of the story driven variety, because that's the only genre I can stomach nowadays. Unfortunately that boils down to Bioware and the rare release from Obsidian. When you're reduced to Bioware or nothing for the type of gameplay you like - you don't have much choice.

 

Of course anyone who thinks I'm less critical of say - Obsidian or CDProjekt RED is kidding themselves. I just respect that the former tries ambitious stuff in their games, (KOTORII, MotB) and that the latter has made one great game so far. If I don't actively criticize something that means its not worth mentioning it and that's much worse.

 

Hurlshot: He's the kinda guy you'd find on the Codex - bashes BIO to high heaven but will play the game and enjoy it in secret. He'll repeatedly bash them and when you call him on it he says they're good games andn that he like sthem but the he continues to bash them.

 

No actually, unlike you I'm pretty straightforward with my opinions. You pose as objective and critical of Bioware, but when any other company's work is mentioned you bash it - because its not Bioware. Like you bashed the Witcher, despite it being at the very least three times a better game than NWN. You're a more die hard fan of Bioware than any other person on this forum, and you do practically nothing else other than replying to the posts where I criticize them.

 

And while I am prone to excess, you never actually have anything meaningful to say, except jumbled up combinations of LOLZ, awesome, yes, no and unexplained opinions. I don't even see what purpose you find in all of it other than to irritate everyone else and raise your post count.

[RPGmasterBoo]

"In DA, the PC visits the elves in their forests, solves their issues, the dwarves in their "halls of stone", solves theirs as well, the mages in their tower (need I say what he does there?) and the knights in their medieval castle (again, rectifying everyone's general incompetence). After that he goes all out in a final battle against the orcs and kills a *gasp* dragon.

To DA's credit its not as bad as it sounds, there are a lot of fine twists in it."

 

You described every RPG ever created INCLUDING BG2. Go to various places, help random people, and advance the main plot.

 

I was referring to the totally generic backdrops to the main quest hubs and the extremely typical finale of the PC's journey, as you're well aware. Its is quite obvious from the summary that preceeded it.

 

It doesn't even have to be BGII. Both Torment and The Witcher had more interesting locales and better thought out quest hubs. (I rarely praise Torment because its so much better than everything else I consider comparisons unnecessary.)

 

Hell even MotB was better in that regard even with all of its flaws.

[Volourn]

"No actually, unlike you I'm pretty straightforward with my opinions."

 

Uhuh. I'm not striaght foward. That's hilarious!

 

 

 

"You pose as objective and critical of Bioware, but when any other company's work is mentioned you bash it - because its not Bioware."

 

O RLY? You must missed my posts a) on the NHL series which I love. Not a BIO game. b) MOTB whicvh is an Obsidian game which I praise c) NWN2 OC which I have defended multiple times d) Arcanum which I love as well d) FF8 which still has the best FMVs ever.

 

Have you read any of the ME2 threads at all? I seemed to remember quite bashing its combat, character system, and the like as 'dumbed down'. Why do you act so ignorant, and you remember things that 'prove' yourcrappy lies? LMAO

 

 

 

"You're a more die hard fan of Bioware than any other person on this forum, and you do practically nothing else other than replying to the posts where I criticize them."

 

Haha. Your arrogance is astounding. My posts are rarely directed at you. Sorry. In fact, you rnak quite low amongst those I reply to. Don't be so full of yourself. Guys like Grom and Numbersu would laugh at you. And, Hurlshot will be the dissapoint since he's got it hard he nows stalks me in private messages just to tyell me I'm a bad, bad man who has no live and should just end it. *shrug*

 

Also, I only post about BIO? Must explain why I post alot about sports and political issues in off topic. Seriously, why do you lie?

 

 

"And while I am prone to excess, you never actually have anything meaningful to say, except jumbled up combinations of LOLZ, awesome, yes, no and unexplained opinions. I don't even see what purpose you find in all of it other than to irritate everyone else and raise your post count."

 

Why are you so concern about post count? I'm certainly not. If I was I wouldn't post in off topic. As for 'meaningless' posts; that defines yours. since they're almsot all about bashing BIO or insulting those who like BIO games (outside of BG2).

 

I have no problem disucssing *and* praising non BIO games.

 

 

"Like you bashed the Witcher, despite it being at the very least three times a better game than NWN."

 

No, your OPINION is wrong. I bash TW because it sucks. Plain and simple. The gameplay sucks, the combat requires no thoguht whatsoever, the characters are aweful, the writing is poor, the game is immature.

 

btw, You should do some research. Prior to TW's release, I was looking forward to it. I praised it, I defended it, and was kisisng its butt. Not my fault, TW didn't live up to its hype.

[RPGmasterBoo]

No, your OPINION is wrong. I bash TW because it sucks. Plain and simple. The gameplay sucks, the combat requires no thoguht whatsoever, the characters are aweful, the writing is poor, the game is immature.

 

Of course the gameplay of NWN is so advanced and complex. Click on target. Wait. Click again. Aribeth, Nasher the others from the expansions, real deep characters in a real complex plot - a prime example of maturity....

If the Witcher sucks then NWN is irredeemable rubbish. Of course NWN is rubbish regardless, only saved by the fact that there is such a game as POR2 to be a contender for most meaningless 3D DnD game ever.

 

Its not even opinion. Its established fact.

 

And, Hurlshot will be the dissapoint since he's got it hard he nows stalks me in private messages just to tyell me I'm a bad, bad man who has no live and should just end it.

 

If its come to the point that Hurlshot is complaining then I've nothing more to add.

Edited February 23, 2010 by RPGmasterBoo

[Flouride]

Whole topic should be renamed to Volourn's epic battle against all critique aimed at Dragon Age: Origins without using the quote function.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Flouride

[Volourn]

"Whole topic should be renamed to Volourn's epic battle against all critique aimed at Dragon Age: Origins without using the quote function."

 

Except I have criticized DA. Multiple times. *shrug* So, if you are to be believed, am I battling myself too? Interesting...

[Sannom]

Considering your origin can determine if you can become royalty, yeah, it does impact the storyline.

 

That must be the only thing that actually motives people to go through that thing I dislike tutorials most of the time, and there its like I have to go through two tutorials one after another, with the first one being absolute rubbish. I could replay the mage Origin, no problem. But the Human Noble is boring and uninteresting. And from what I've heard, really doesn't affect anything apart from some flavor text from Rowe (and the royalty thing, but this isn't affected by how you played the origin, but by what you "are"). Same for the Dalish Elves, I heard (well, I read the plot on the wiki. Awful!).

As for me, I only played the mage origin, and I never saw how it was actually important to the story, except perhaps knowing beforehand who Jowan is. But any "good" character would probably let him out and offer him his chance to redemption anyway. I think I will try the Dwarves' origins one day, they seem interesting! The Casteless one especially, since when playing it your choice of King can be quite influenced by another character (your sister is extremely supportive of Bhelen, and will ask you to support him).

 

You described every RPG ever created INCLUDING BG2. Go to various places, help random people, and advance the main plot.

 

At least BG2 got some variety in the kind of enemies you face and the kind of locations you visit. The side quests were also quite epic (Firkraag and the Blind Eye, anyone? Also the Plane Sphere) and varied too. Plus it offered a really different Chapter 3 considering who you sided with, there is no such thing in DA. The Origin thing is dwarfed and kind of "gadget" when you compare it to the Fortress system (complete with some of them being completely uninteresting ). The characters were even more clich

[Majek]

BG2 was the 2nd game in the series, DA2 will have variety.

 

What's so really different in BG2 chapter 3? It's just 2 factions and you go kill the other. Plenty of that in DA. Same quality too.

[Asol]

Says the guy who thinks rogues are useless in DA. L0LZ

 

You're not even being responsible with other peoples positions. There is a difference between saying the class is useless and saying the skill division is superfluous or pointless. The division between rogue and warrior archtype skill sets doesn't need to be there when all caster archtypes fall under one class. It seems like they could never get away from the three class design probably due to how they implemented specialties, but the balance and division of skills between the three is lopsided.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Asol