Just finished MOTB

[alanschu]

I find a timed challenge often depends on how much time there is, and what the challenge is.

 

I thought MOTBs was executed magnificently.

 

 

I wouldn't have liked it as much if the curse was an empty threat that imposed no consequence whatsoever on the player's actions. The sense of urgency was important IMO.

Edited October 27, 2009 by alanschu

[Oner]

Timed challenges usually hit me at worst possible time.

[Gfted1]

It would have been fine if sleeping and traveling didn't screw it up so much. Having to worry about my spirit energy every second, makes it hard to enjoy the rest of the game.

I enjoyed it much more because of that.

 

^That sounds like poor game design. No player should ever be constrained by the choices they make.

 

Well if it were done properly, MOTB would have given the player some mechanism to completely reset/circumvent the curse so you wouldnt get frustrated.

Except there is - Supress.

 

Au contraire, youve obviously forgotten the 349834598429 threads about how the curse would get to a point that even trying to travel to another location would kill you because of the "time" that passed while you travel.

[Gorgon]

I thought the spirit eater thing was enormously annoying. I too dislike time trials intensely. Maybe it's the way it was introduced, at the end of the intro dungeon as a wall of text carrying new rules and an annoying addition to your HUD. I would have preferred a conscious choice A, become a spirit eater and accept that you were going to go through the game always looking for the next meal, or B. Resist and never hear of it again. Sure after you had played the game a while you realized that you could resist and suffer only minimal consequences, but first impressions and the first playthrough should be of the greatest importance.

[Mera]

Au contraire, youve obviously forgotten the 349834598429 threads about how the curse would get to a point that even trying to travel to another location would kill you because of the "time" that passed while you travel.

I remember just one case where traveling from one location to another could incur huge penalty and that was because of a bug. In most locations there are also clumps of neutral spirits, so a use of supress or provoke ability is highly recommended.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Mera

[Gromnir]

spirit-eater were... stoopid. not the idea, but the implementation. took 'bout 20 minutes to figure out the gaps in the reason used to implement. afterward, if playing good, you not need to worry 'bout spirit meter save as a somewhat tedious pre-adventure ritual... find place where undead spawn, and max out meter before going off to thaymount or ashenwood. spirit-meter were an annoyance that not actual add to gameplay. never played evil, but am betting that world map travel weren't no fun for folks with high rate o' hunger. even so, if good end were busted, am betting that evil side were similarly flawed. also, the original pre-patch alignment bonuses/hits for the spirit-eater were likewise ridiculous. took 20 hours o' gameplay to get 'nuff dialogue options to equal the amount o' possible law-boosting points you could amass from 20 minutes o' suppression + rest sequences. am thankful Gromnir never played a bard or barbarian.

 

btw, the joinable npcs for motb were a big disappointment. am sounding like a broken record, but if dove were a human & male paladin, would anybody have given a damn? personalty o' damp dish towel and colorblindness Not = great character. o' but 'cause dove is having wings That makes her kewl. bah. motb jnpcs were all gimmick and little substance. make gann a human or elven roguish womanizer... with mommy issues. lame. o' but he's Blue... literally. *groan* yet another character that woulda' been reviled as cliche if not for the gimmick. make gann a hagspawn, and presto-chanego, the overused cliche becomes novel. the bear were kinda a neato concept, but we didn't get much development past the concept. etc.

 

Gromnir liked motb, but the end were weak... as is typical for obsidian games. am always forgetting the name o' the betrayer guy... which is a bad sign as he is the ultimate adversary. never developed requisite interest for the titular character--didn't hate or admire or feel requisite pity for the betrayer. if not for the silly end battle, the betrayer coulda' been nothing more than a macguffin suitable for Hitch****... which woulda' been ok if other adversaries Did gets development.

 

again, we enjoyed motb, but the spirit-meter were flawed and the writing were inconsistent at best. then again, they managed to get maxwell's daemon into the game.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[alanschu]

Au contraire, youve obviously forgotten the 349834598429 threads about how the curse would get to a point that even trying to travel to another location would kill you because of the "time" that passed while you travel.

 

 

Actually I should clarify my stance and acknowledge that this is indeed a concern. Perhaps "magnificently" is a bit too strong of praise for it. However, I do like the fact that the game actually had some sort of consequence because I consider it silly that in RPGs, urgent stuff really isn't urgent at all. It's a huge immersion breaker for me.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I'd just rather relax and go at my own pace and take a year if I want to. I don't need a game to feel like a finals exam.

[alanschu]

I think if the story necessitates it, it makes sense.

[flem]

I think it's been too long since most of us played it.

 

Good path: snack on undead using eternal rest. There were always undead around, and you could last hit them with the power so they always dropped essences and filled you up.

Non-aligned path: snack on undead or occasional regular spirits, plus regular and frequent use of suppress (summon something first!).

Evil path: devour all sorts of stuff. You would have to use your xp to top yourself off at times, but there were of course benefits.

 

IIRC only the last one would get you to the state where you could die from sleeping, traveling, etc.

[Gfted1]

So the game would allow the player to make choices that could lead to an inescapable outcome of being unable to continue? Heresy! I cant believe Obsidian wasnt drummed out of business.

[Purkake]

I think your sarcasm button is stuck again, Gifted.

[Starwars]

Evil path: devour all sorts of stuff. You would have to use your xp to top yourself off at times, but there were of course benefits.

 

It's not really needed if you can devour souls. There are one or two places where it's a possibility but really, you shouldn't need to use the XP sacrifice if you have a clue what you're doing.

 

At any rate, I think the XP sacrifice is too easy of a way out. The XP lost is just of no consequence at all in the grand scheme of things.

 

I also know that they changed the rate that the meter goes down in a patch. Travelling has a very small effect on it at the moment at least. Not sure about sleeping.

[Aristes]

Suppress is quite usefull, especially in the early game. I greatly enjoyed putting spirits to rest, in particular the dialogue options that allowed for eternal rest were quite good. However, suppress made more sense in a variety of areas AND you could use summons and Okku to bump up the benefits of suppress.

 

So, it's been a while but I remember the game pretty well still, I think. You don't really need to head out to areas to find undead in order to lower your meter or move your scale to good. In fact, if you're following the do-righter path, you're specific story line decisions put you squarely in the good side.

[Gfted1]

I think your sarcasm button is stuck again, Gifted.

 

Hehe, agreed.

 

Im just throwing it back in everyones faces. Everyone had a jolly good dogpile in the DA thread tripping all over themselves explaining how it was genius that DA wouldnt let you paint yourself into a corner, but MOTB is hailed by most as a pinnacle in roleplaying and it has that exact mechanic in it.

 

Ill lay off now.

[Aristes]

Hey, I've been getting the sarcasm, so it wasn't wasted. I didn't know it related to DA, but I haven't read the thread there for a while.

[alanschu]

So the game would allow the player to make choices that could lead to an inescapable outcome of being unable to continue? Heresy! I cant believe Obsidian wasnt drummed out of business.

 

Im just throwing it back in everyones faces. Everyone had a jolly good dogpile in the DA thread tripping all over themselves explaining how it was genius that DA wouldnt let you paint yourself into a corner, but MOTB is hailed by most as a pinnacle in roleplaying and it has that exact mechanic in it.

 

 

Is it ever inescapable? I thought you could use XP to top yourself off. I fail to see how that is painting yourself into a corner when clearly the design gave you a pretty convenient out if you get sloppy with handling the hunger.

Edited October 27, 2009 by alanschu

[Gfted1]

See post 107, you know, where youve already agreed.

[Walsingham]

If youw ent totally batshot crazy with the evil then why not die from hunger? You've clearly become such a towering a-hole that you've imploded. Big whoop. However, I would have liekd some more serious complications from being good. I was never good, I just simply didn't like being at the mercy of the little bastard inside me. The gae made no allowance for that, even though it had that option in dialogue. Very weird.

[alanschu]

See post 107, you know, where youve already agreed.

 

See post 113, where I was reminded that you can use XP to prevent it from happening. I'd go back and edit my post, but I can't. I forgot about the XP sacrifice, because I never used it.

 

 

Im just throwing it back in everyones faces. Everyone had a jolly good dogpile in the DA thread tripping all over themselves explaining how it was genius that DA wouldnt let you paint yourself into a corner, but MOTB is hailed by most as a pinnacle in roleplaying and it has that exact mechanic in it.

 

I know I'm in your crosshairs because of previous encounters, but this has quickly turned into you making a fool out of yourself again (doubly so because you're trying to be witty in doing so), primarily through you completely misunderstanding what is actually being discussed. Though I sort of had a feeling you were continuing to be petty in this thread. You just confirmed it. Heck, you might as well have just called me out on it specifically.

 

 

The issues discussed in Dragon Age about "backing into a corner" are more specifically about being blindsided by it. That is, for example, making an active decision to play the game a particular way, resulting in the permanent death of party members, where the result is that the only options available to a player, assuming the NPCs at party camp were not given any experience, was to attempt to proceed through the game with party members that were significantly handicapped. You can't always anticipate that NPCs will leave you based on a choice that you make at that time. You are never hidden from your spirit meter in MOTB near as I can remember.

 

If you remember from that very thread, I said I had no problems with Sarevok turning at the end of TOB, because it happens at the end of the game and outside of a single fight being difficult (the final fight of the game at that), it wouldn't subject the player to several hours (and several encounters) with a specifically gimped party. This is, of course, without even mentioning that the final fight of TOB would have balance considerations made for the very fact that Sarevok could turn. You'll notice I also had no issues with the losing of party members at the end of NWN2, based on the consequences of your actions. I especially have no issue, because the game DID level up your characters that weren't in your party with you. Imagine how interesting that fight would be if, after 40+ hours of gameplay, you found yourself fighting epic level characters with some level 2 scrubs you didn't know you'd need to level up.

 

With Mask of the Betrayer, the spirit bar is presented early in the game, and the game player is always presented with full knowledge of its status, as well as what its effects are when it gets to various levels. There are different ways of dealing with it to keep it under control, as well as an "oh ****" method to prevent players from getting stuck. You can't be blind sided by it, except through gross negligence. To make the Dragon Age situation analogous, you'd need to set up an encounter early in the game where you unexpectedly lost an NPC party member, and demonstrate that you'll need to replace that party member with one that has remained at exactly the level you acquired that party member at. Hence, the player will be cued that they would need to manage the experience level of their party members. This ignores that the player's spirit is a central point of the entire game, and makes an assumption that party members chilling in camp sit around doing **** all.

 

 

You won't find me saying that games should be winnable in any circumstance. Taking DA as an example, with all of the Warrior abilities cuing the player that strength is useful for a warrior, I won't bat an eye if someone decides that they want to dump all their attribute points into magic and they find the game has become difficult, or if they feel that they should be able to wear cloth armor and still effectively go toe-to-toe with monsters as that warrior.

 

Given that the Spirit Bar in MOTB doesn't actually block the character (thanks Starwars), I rescind my previous statement.

Edited October 27, 2009 by alanschu

[alanschu]

To return things somewhat on topic...

 

 

Timed stuff does seem to work better when the outright length of the game is not very long. Using that as a lemma, you could probably extrapolate that to apply to it working better when the distance from going "completely un****ed" to "****ed" is not very long.

 

 

For example, Prince of Persia was a ton of fun in its day, but you only had 60 minutes to beat the game (and it was a damn tough game too). But since the time investment wasn't very much, it was easier to get away with. Another example is that I had no problems redoing the final mission of Call of Duty 4 which had a timer on it, lest the plane I was in exploded!

[Gfted1]

I know I'm in your crosshairs because of previous encounters, but this has quickly turned into you making a fool out of yourself again (doubly so because you're trying to be witty in doing so), primarily through you completely misunderstanding what is actually being discussed. Though I sort of had a feeling you were continuing to be petty in this thread. You just confirmed it. Heck, you might as well have just called me out on it specifically.

 

Oy, dont flatter yourself, your not the only one in that thread who feels consequence free play is acceptable. And you should really read Gorgons post thats in Slowtrains sig. I got pissed and fell for your flame bait once but that wont happen again. Try to be a big boy and avoid the name calling, or just do us both a favor and put me on ignore. Youre the one that get all red faced and poopy pants. Oh, thats right, youre not taking this sh** anymore. *snap*snap*snap*

 

 

~snip~

 

Way to massage that to get to one specific scenario to support your (now) revised opinion.

[Enoch]

I was underwhelmed by MotB. It had its moments, but ultimately I just didn't have a whole lot of fun playing it and had to force myself to finish the game.

 

I understood the spirit-eater mechanic as an interesting attempt to get around the 'just rest after every encounter' problem that the NWN2 OC had. But it just wasn't fun to use in practice (with the exception of the dialogue-based uses). I didn't find the companions to be all that interesting. The Red Wiz had some moderately compelling mystery about her, and Okku was fun, if a bit insufficiently fleshed-out. But Gann was just irritating, and the Dove was only interesting to the extent that you can read lots of FR/D&D cosmology while keeping a straight face. (A test which I have failed several times.) Once the core mystery was resolved when I met with Safiya's mom, I lost interest in playing out the rest-- I knew that the story was going to take care of the betrayer's soul-swap, and I didn't care enough about my or any of the other character's fates beyond that point to want to slog through any more supposedly-epic combat.

 

Also, epic-level D&D = teh suck. Particularly when the writing tries to match your character's 'epic-ness' with overly grandiose stuff about dying gods, destroying worlds, and cosmic justice. The effort put into fanning the player's ego just feels unseemly.

[ramza]

Oh, I didn't want to mess with the spirit-meter stuff because so many people told me negative stuff about it, I simply disabled it using the console. I just pretended the hunger came in occasionally.

[Aristes]

I didn't like the spirit meter business, but I didn't hate it. I merely dealt with it as needed. The story behind MotB is solid and the NPCs provided fun, at least for me. Sure, Okku could have been fleshed out more. *shrug* I still enjoyed having his huge hairy bear ass help me. Gann could have been a play boy elf who's mother turns out to be the the frigid ruler of an enchanted grotto. He was a playboy hagspawn with more than just a spoiled brat background giving him the chip on his shoulder. In particular I thought Gann was well done. Now, I can see the point about Dove, because I found her a bit boring. However, her backstory was interesting to me, even if her dialogue was tedious and her attitude was trying. Her motives and origins were compelling even so. Frankly, I would have liked for the design team to make her one of the villains much like the arch-angel is a boss in Torment. I'm sure that would have been a bit too on the nose, though.

 

Altogether, MotB was the most fun I've had playing anything on the NWNx engine, and I'm just glad it seems that folks are moving past it. I guess I enjoyed KotOR/2 quite a bit, which is a modified Aurora engine as I understand, but that was for much the same reason I enjoyed MotB. The story was Star Wars fun and the NPCs were cool.