FO:NV

[vault_overseer]

One other thing I would like to see folks discuss is how they feel about the spectrum of cond/power on a few weapons vs. a smaller spectrum on more weapons. That is, is it better to have a small number of weapons that scale a lot in power with their condition OR is it better to have a large number of weapons that scale less? Can be specific to F3, but any games or examples will do.

 

If it is Fallout, then less weapons, very wide condition scaling. 100% guns should be god-like, but unattainable via any kind of repair, only found in pre-war locations. Also(and I don't know if that's how degrading works in F3), weapons should degrade faster than armor, with armor degradation rate set by some kind of a durability rating, i.e. leather jacket gets destroyed after few assault rifle criticals, PA only affected by big/energy weapons and really high end small guns.

 

If it was any other game, I'd say more guns, less scaling, but in Fallout it makes sense to put effort into maintaining your equipment. As of how many are too many weapon choices, I'd say that F3 got it about right.

 

Oh yeah, I'm also all for the mods, but I don't know how mods would relate/modify weapon's condition scaling, i.e. mods can only be installed on a weapon with 50% or higher condition, or mods can be installed on a weapon with any condition, and it will raise weapon's condition 10%

 

 

EDIT: I also think that no traveling traders should ever be able to repair better than a freaking store keeper with a workbench next to him/her.

Edited October 27, 2009 by vault_overseer

[Killian Kalthorne]

When it comes to weapons modifications and repair use this mod as an inspirational point please.

 

http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=3388

[entrerix]

i support the decrease in importance of degradation, constant repairing was not fun, it was work. if every time i found a new gun i could increase the condition and have it not immediately (or ever) start decreasing again i'd be happy.

 

as for the spectrum... hmmm im torn on this.

 

1. on one hand i LIKE the idea of having a great difference in quality mean a great difference in weapon ability, ONLY IF there is no degradation, i dont want my awesome rifle to become a pos by the end of the day because i've been using it. This is what i liked most about mkreku's idea, the weapon, as it goes up in quality, changes names to match how good it is. then it still becomes exciting finding another chinese assault rifle, because THIS one might be that legendary "100%" weapon! and if its not, then i use it to get my own rifle one step closer to being perfect...

 

2. IF degradation will remain mostly the same speed, then i'd rather the weapons themselves be drastically different (and thus fewer in number to avoid needless overlap?) and keep the condition from too greatly effecting the potency of each. then when i find a better weapon i just dump my current one and keep on trucking.

[CoM_Solaufein]

When it comes to weapons modifications and repair use this mod as an inspirational point please.

 

http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=3388

Mods have better weapons than the original game. FOOK used a lot of neat weapons which is why I like that mod.

 

Yes give us various selections in weapons and styles.

 

Degradation of the original game is unrealistic. Most weapons degrade far too fast. I have guns that belonged to my grandfather and they never needed any parts replaced, just general periodic cleaning.

[vault_overseer]

I definitely agree that repairing to make a weapons awesomer is much better than repairing to stop weapons from turning into a complete piece of ****

[Oner]

Fun fact: The gun degradation was hand waved with radiation and the age of the weapons, but even brand new BoS guns rot away for some reason.

[vault_overseer]

Fun fact: The gun degradation was hand waved with radiation and the age of the weapons, but even brand new BoS guns rot away for some reason.

 

 

Well, it would make sense for all weapons in the wasteland to be heavily used and far from new, also it would make sense for those weapons to degrade somewhat fast with all that dust and all.

[Oner]

I wrote 'brand new' for a reason.

[vault_overseer]

'brand new' shouldn't really exist in the wasteland.

Edited October 27, 2009 by vault_overseer

[Aristes]

The Brotherhood of Steel was making new weapons alllll the way back in Fallout 1.

[Oner]

Right, there are no mines of any kind or gunsmiths to make new stuff.

[vault_overseer]

Right, right, my mind is clouded by F3, sorry(*makes a note to replay F1&2 after Torment)

[Slowtrain]

Are you asking if we'd like to see a smaller number of total weapons in the game but have their damage increase (and decrease) dramatically depending on condition vs having a large number of weapons in game but having their damage not change all that much depending on condition?

Yes, but don't hesitate to freestyle that into related topics. I'm just curious.

 

 

I think I would probably agree with mkreku and Lyr and others that more weapons with less variablity to their damage is preferable. However, that's partly due to the fact that I don't see repairing gear as being that important to the Fallout (or any other crpg experience) so I would prefer degradation and repair having as little effect as possible.

 

 

However, I would hasten to add that I don't think lots of weapons should be added just to have lots of weapons. Putting in a bunch of weapons that are virtually indistingushable from each other, save an extra bit of damage or a different caliber ammo, seems to me to be a waste of valuable dev time. I think a smallish number of carefully considered weapons, each of which is very distinct both visually and functionally from one another is highly preferable.

 

 

Fallout 3, I felt, had too many weapons that were either useless right from the start, very quickly obsolete, or just reptitive. Obviously the chinese pistol and .32 pistol really shouldn't even be in the game (as currently balanced). The assault rifle and the 10mm pistol and to some degree the laser pistol (its use of the small energy cell as ammo gives it some value) go obsolete so fast that it seems almost a waste to spend time balacing them and putting them in the game. The Chinese Assault Rifle and the assault rifle were too similar as well. Really the game only needs one of them. The assault rifle could have been left out without anyone noticing.

 

 

I like mkreku's idea of using mods and upgrades to enhance a weapon (or armor even) and give it a personality as the game develops, but I don't know if that sort of thing is supported in the engine design. I mentioned it before but the way the attachment system worked in Crysis was pretty interesting without being horribly complex or clunky. Deus Ex also did the same sort of thing, by presenting the player with most of the base weapons early in the game but adding the opportunity to modify the weapon as the game progressed. Bioshock did sort of the same thing in a lesser way with its upgrade stations. I think its a nice way to allow the player to develop a weapon(s) they find intersting and fun to use in a way that fits their playstyle.

 

 

On a completely somewhat unrelated note I'd like to talk about armor vs health balance:

 

When playing Fallout 3, I would often find myself taking OFF my armor prior to a big fight or a melee encounter with a deathclaw or Yao Guai because it was easier to deal with hitpoint damage than it was with armor damage. When you combine the facts that A)armor deteriorates so rapidly (a single melee fight with a deathclaw can wipe out a full health combat armor) B)armor is heavy and hard to carry around in multiple sets and C) armor doesn't actually provide that much protection and D) stimpacks are weightless and easily available, it made much more sense to fight in my underwear rather than in armor.

 

 

The fact that I could even do that let aloine do that and be better off is to me a major problem with the game balance between armor and hitpoints.

[Gorgon]

I just used the basic raider badlands armor, nice skin and theres spares everywhere, until I found the combat armor that gives extra APs, I used that for the rest of the game, although it was 100% damaged several times. Fortunately the merchants have combat armor. In any case you are better off using inventory space on weapons than on armor that's doing to disintegrate regardless. Just use what the majority of the enemy is wearing and toss it when you need the space.

[WDeranged]

To be honest the only times when weapon and armour degradation really pissed me off is when I got brand new stuff like Operation Anchorage quest rewards, watching pristine (and kick ass) equipment degrade so fast and having to rely on the repair merchants due to the uniqueness of the items was a bummer.

 

I can accept that the ****ty rifle I just found in a box, in the middle of a ruined building, might not last as long as an untouched rifle found in a locker at a military base.

[Slowtrain]

I just used the basic raider badlands armor, nice skin and theres spares everywhere, until I found the combat armor that gives extra APs, I used that for the rest of the game, although it was 100% damaged several times. Fortunately the merchants have combat armor. In any case you are better off using inventory space on weapons than on armor that's doing to disintegrate regardless. Just use what the majority of the enemy is wearing and toss it when you need the space.

 

 

I too used the Raider Badland armor a lot as well. It was light, easy to find, repairable by all raider armors, and looked the best of all the armors in the game. So generally I would still be wearing it at upper levels, especailly since I tended to rely on hitpoints and stimpacks rather than armor to see me through the tougher fights.

 

edit: Otoh I never used either the recon armor and/or metal armor. It was so rare and fell apart so fast there was no point. AT least so it seemed to me.

Edited October 28, 2009 by Slowtrain

[Syraxis]

However, I would hasten to add that I don't think lots of weapons should be added just to have lots of weapons. Putting in a bunch of weapons that are virtually indistingushable from each other, save an extra bit of damage or a different caliber ammo, seems to me to be a waste of valuable dev time. I think a smallish number of carefully considered weapons, each of which is very distinct both visually and functionally from one another is highly preferable.

 

Fallout 3, I felt, had too many weapons that were either useless right from the start, very quickly obsolete, or just reptitive. Obviously the chinese pistol and .32 pistol really shouldn't even be in the game (as currently balanced). The assault rifle and the 10mm pistol and to some degree the laser pistol (its use of the small energy cell as ammo gives it some value) go obsolete so fast that it seems almost a waste to spend time balacing them and putting them in the game. The Chinese Assault Rifle and the assault rifle were too similar as well. Really the game only needs one of them. The assault rifle could have been left out without anyone noticing.

[Enoch]

I just used the basic raider badlands armor, nice skin and theres spares everywhere, until I found the combat armor that gives extra APs, I used that for the rest of the game, although it was 100% damaged several times. Fortunately the merchants have combat armor. In any case you are better off using inventory space on weapons than on armor that's doing to disintegrate regardless. Just use what the majority of the enemy is wearing and toss it when you need the space.

Combat armor was easy to repair if your Karma was high. The armor worn by those squads of mercs that hunted for high-karma PCs could be used to repair it. I found a suit of combat armor in (I think) that trippy ghost vault early on and wore it for most of the game.

 

I agree with many of Slowtrain's points on some of the too-obsolete weapons in FO3. I did, however, like how each weapon type had a unique variant or two with an different look and improved (usually) stats. Even if it lacked much detail and backstory, it touched some of the same notes that the unique weapon descriptions in the IWD games did-- that's not just any hunting rifle (or just any +2 Shortsword), that's Ol' Painless! There should be at least something to recommend each one of them, though. A unique tire iron or nailboard is a neat detail, but there isn't much point if nobody is going to actually use them.

 

On Sawyer's question, I can see both sides. There is also some appeal to getting one gun, giving it your attention, TLC, and the best mods you find, and keeping it as your constant companion throughout the journey. But the whole 'New Lo0t' rush is a pretty core part of an RPG's appeal, and I don't know how well that extends to finding a new stock to put on your combat shotgun. Also, more weapon variety in look and utility (even if only for enemies) is a good thing.

Edited October 28, 2009 by Enoch

[Slowtrain]

I thought the unique weapons were a nice addition and worked well.

 

If the standard combat armor hadn't been repairable with Talon Combat armor, it would have made wearing combat armor much more difficult. So that was a good thing.

[WDeranged]

I agree with many of Slowtrain's points on some of the too-obsolete weapons in FO3. I did, however, like how each weapon type had a unique variant or two with an different look and improved (usually) stats. Even if it lacked much detail and backstory, it touched some of the same notes that the unique weapon descriptions in the IWD games did-- that's not just any hunting rifle (or just any +2 Shortsword), that's Ol' Painless! There should be at least something to recommend each one of them, though. A unique tire iron or nailboard is a neat detail, but there isn't much point if nobody is going to actually use them.

 

Yeah, I ended up keeping all but one or two of the unique weapons in the Megaton shack, simply out of an OCD desire to keep them all...mostly I just killed a couple of things with them and forgot they were there.

 

Still, in these open worldy games there's a very good chance you will find some of these "useless" weapons earlier on in your game, when they're far more handy, but once you've got a couple of the really potent weapons 90% of anything you find after that becomes redundant.

 

I suppose this is a problem with modern RPGs in general, perhaps having certain enemies taking noticeably more hurt from differing types of damage could help a few weapons keep their usefulness

[Aristes]

Looting is one of the appeals of a diabloesque game. You keep plugging away because it's certain you will find something better. After all, the game is built on looting. Games like Fallout 3 and NWNx and the like just don't have that. In most of them you'll find the best weapon well before the end of the game. You might have a couple different weapons for different situations, such as melee, close range shoot out, and sniping. Still, a lot of players find the weapon they like most and stick with it even when the situation changes and they have something better on hand. I know, for myself, I never bothered switching to melee even if someone ran up on me. I just kept shooting. I did sometimes keep a sniper weapon on hand in addition to my normal shootout weapon, but my characters normally don't have a lot of strength and so I don't like to carry a lot of extra crap around with me.

 

You can still still improve your attributes and the like, which is a good enough incentive to keep leveling, but I always assumed that most players completed these games for the story. Frankly, the combat was never that good in Fallout 3. The exploration and discovery was great, but the combat was mediocre and the story was okayish.

 

To be perfectly candid, I like the early game, not only because your weapon isn't totally kick ass, but because ammunition is scarce. You can sometimes be forced to cycle through the weapons, which I like. It's like an FPS where you carry a lot of weapons and change due to situations or lack of ammo. In the FEAR games, where you can only carry... three weapons? Anyhow, on harder settings, I found that I would switch out weapons because the ammunition was more abundant for one or the other. Obsidian can improve on Fallout 3 quite a bit just in how they dole out the weapons and where they place the ammo. I certainly don't think thinning out the availabilty of some items will necessarily make the players go ape****. It's a great way to add challenge without doing much to change the familiarity of the basic gameplay mechanics.

[WDeranged]

To be perfectly candid, I like the early game, not only because your weapon isn't totally kick ass, but because ammunition is scarce. You can sometimes be forced to cycle through the weapons, which I like. It's like an FPS where you carry a lot of weapons and change due to situations or lack of ammo.

 

Most RPGers I speak to prefer the early stages of a game, the world seems more alive and menacing when you're having to scratch around for useful loot. Eventually though you've got to become a walking death machine, if only for the feeling of achievement.

 

Fallout 3 plateaus too quickly though, in my opinion.

Edited October 28, 2009 by WDeranged

[Slowtrain]

To be perfectly candid, I like the early game, not only because your weapon isn't totally kick ass, but because ammunition is scarce.

 

I much prefered the early game as well. Mostly becasue every little scavenged item was important and becasue there was at least some real threat in the world.

 

 

Once I hit level 5 or so, things became a lot less interesting.

 

 

I tend in general to prefer low levels in cprgs, mostly because the uberness just gets out of control at higher levels.

 

I know that some people do prefer the uber epic levels of games, so its just a matter of what interests you I guess.

[HoonDing]

To be perfectly candid, I like the early game, not only because your weapon isn't totally kick ass, but because ammunition is scarce.

Once I hit level 5 or so, things became a lot less interesting.

Hmm... that must have come pretty quick then. Leave Vault 101 -> level 2. Clear out Springvale School -> level 3. Enter Megaton, do first chapter of Moira's quests -> level 4.

[Hurlshort]

I also prefer lower levels in RPG's, especially D&D. Past level 6 I think it starts getting goofy.