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A pathfinder crpg petition


steelfiredragon

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I'm not very knowledgeable about P&P RPG, but aren't Pathfinder's rules complicated for a "real time" RPG in the vein of NWN 2? I mean, I've seen the material for the Eldricht Knight, his new power of adding a spell to his critical hits must be pretty hard to implement in a easy-to-use ability for a computer RPG!

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Not going to happen. Wizards wouldn't allow it due to licensing constraints.

how do you figure that??

 

Pathfinder is d20 System using the 3.5e Open Gaming License which states that no company can create an independent interactive gaming environment using the d20 System rules. They can make d20 System reference software, but not games.

 

If it is d20 or DnD related it has to go through Wizards and Hasbro in a separate licensing agreement.

Edited by Killian Kalthorne

"Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."

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Not going to happen. Wizards wouldn't allow it due to licensing constraints.

how do you figure that??

 

Pathfinder is d20 System using the 3.5e Open Gaming License which states that no company can create an independent interactive gaming environment using the d20 System rules. They can make d20 System reference software, but not games.

 

If it is d20 or DnD related it has to go through Wizards and Hasbro in a separate licensing agreement.

 

This is incorrect. Pathfinder does not use the d20 license. It does use the Open Gaming License (the two are not the same, but many gamers confuse them, because they seemed so similar during the supported lifetime of 3.5E). The OGL license is vastly less restrictive than the d20 license.

 

Now on the note of the petition: I would love to see a Pathfinder RPG CRPG and especially from Obsidian Entertainment! >_<

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Here is the full text of the Open Gaming License: http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/OGLv1.0a.rtf

 

OPEN GAME LICENSE Version 1.0a

 

The following text is the property of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. and is Copyright 2000 Wizards of the Coast, Inc ("Wizards"). All Rights Reserved.

 

1. Definitions: (a)"Contributors" means the copyright and/or trademark owners who have contributed Open Game Content; (b)"Derivative Material" means copyrighted material including derivative works and translations (including into other computer languages), potation, modification, correction, addition, extension, upgrade, improvement, compilation, abridgment or other form in which an existing work may be recast, transformed or adapted; © "Distribute" means to reproduce, license, rent, lease, sell, broadcast, publicly display, transmit or otherwise distribute; (d)"Open Game Content" means the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor, and means any work covered by this License, including translations and derivative works under copyright law, but specifically excludes Product Identity. (e) "Product Identity" means product and product line names, logos and identifying marks including trade dress; artifacts; creatures characters; stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, dialogue, incidents, language, artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, likenesses, formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other visual or audio representations; names and descriptions of characters, spells, enchantments, personalities, teams, personas, likenesses and special abilities; places, locations, environments, creatures, equipment, magical or supernatural abilities or effects, logos, symbols, or graphic designs; and any other trademark or registered trademark clearly identified as Product identity by the owner of the Product Identity, and which specifically excludes the Open Game Content; (f) "Trademark" means the logos, names, mark, sign, motto, designs that are used by a Contributor to identify itself or its products or the associated products contributed to the Open Game License by the Contributor (g) "Use", "Used" or "Using" means to use, Distribute, copy, edit, format, modify, translate and otherwise create Derivative Material of Open Game Content. (h) "You" or "Your" means the licensee in terms of this agreement.

 

2. The License: This License applies to any Open Game Content that contains a notice indicating that the Open Game Content may only be Used under and in terms of this License. You must affix such a notice to any Open Game Content that you Use. No terms may be added to or subtracted from this License except as described by the License itself. No other terms or conditions may be applied to any Open Game Content distributed using this License.

 

3.Offer and Acceptance: By Using the Open Game Content You indicate Your acceptance of the terms of this License.

 

4. Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License, the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content.

 

5.Representation of Authority to Contribute: If You are contributing original material as Open Game Content, You represent that Your Contributions are Your original creation and/or You have sufficient rights to grant the rights conveyed by this License.

 

6.Notice of License Copyright: You must update the COPYRIGHT NOTICE portion of this License to include the exact text of the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any Open Game Content You are copying, modifying or distributing, and You must add the title, the copyright date, and the copyright holder's name to the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any original Open Game Content you Distribute.

 

7. Use of Product Identity: You agree not to Use any Product Identity, including as an indication as to compatibility, except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of each element of that Product Identity. You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark. The use of any Product Identity in Open Game Content does not constitute a challenge to the ownership of that Product Identity. The owner of any Product Identity used in Open Game Content shall retain all rights, title and interest in and to that Product Identity.

 

8. Identification: If you distribute Open Game Content You must clearly indicate which portions of the work that you are distributing are Open Game Content.

 

9. Updating the License: Wizards or its designated Agents may publish updated versions of this License. You may use any authorized version of this License to copy, modify and distribute any Open Game Content originally distributed under any version of this License.

 

10 Copy of this License: You MUST include a copy of this License with every copy of the Open Game Content You Distribute.

 

11. Use of Contributor Credits: You may not market or advertise the Open Game Content using the name of any Contributor unless You have written permission from the Contributor to do so.

 

12 Inability to Comply: If it is impossible for You to comply with any of the terms of this License with respect to some or all of the Open Game Content due to statute, judicial order, or governmental regulation then You may not Use any Open Game Material so affected.

 

13 Termination: This License will terminate automatically if You fail to comply with all terms herein and fail to cure such breach within 30 days of becoming aware of the breach. All sublicenses shall survive the termination of this License.

 

14 Reformation: If any provision of this License is held to be unenforceable, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable.

 

15 COPYRIGHT NOTICE

Open Game License v 1.0 Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

 

I see nothing against computer games in the text.

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Although if you read the software FAQ, they talk aabout not allowing anyone to use the D&D rules in games, because the d20 license doesn't allow that. I don't think the actual rules are published as Open Game Content. If it was, any computer game could just use the D&D rules and that would be a terrible business decision.

 

The software FAQ: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/oglfaq/20040123i

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Although if you read the software FAQ, they talk aabout not allowing anyone to use the D&D rules in games, because the d20 license doesn't allow that. I don't think the actual rules are published as Open Game Content. If it was, any computer game could just use the D&D rules and that would be a terrible business decision.

 

The software FAQ: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/oglfaq/20040123i

 

The software restrictions in the FAQ only apply to the d20 License. The rules of the game are published as Open Game Content (the one exception I recall, being the XP chart, so you have to use a different chart with different amounts of XP for each level in OGL games, which is really not a problem). In fact, 3.5E is almost entirely Open Game Content (at least the core books are, some of the later books less so), the only exceptions being a handful of names, which are product identity. These names include D&D, the Drow, the Illithid/Mind Flayers, Displacer Beasts, Beholders, Aasimar, Genasi, the names of the Greyhawk gods and a couple of others. You cannot use these names in open gaming products, but you can use everything else and even use the rules to create the statistics behind the creatures protected by product identity. This is, in fact, done pretty frequently and for example the Drow are simply called Dark Elves in many products that use the Open Gaming License (OGL).

 

The d20 License is different from the OGL, the d20 License being vastly more restrictive than the OGL. For example, the d20 License (but not the OGL) prevents you from including any character-creation or character-advancement rules in your products (this is so as to encourage the buyers of the product to also purchase the D&D core rulebooks to get this information). So what was the advantage of using the d20 License instead of the OGL? It was that you could use the d20 Logo on your product to indicate its compatibility with D&D, whereas you couldn't do so on OGL products. Initially, this was viewed as a big advantage, so you saw many more products using the d20 License than the OGL License. As time went on, more and more companies transitioned to using the much more flexible Open Gaming License, no longer so worried about not being able to indicate compatibility with D&D using the d20 logo.

 

A few more things worth mentioning:

1) The d20 License does not exist any more. It has been rescinded by the Wizards of the Coast.

2) The Open Gaming License is in perpetuity and cannot be rescinded by the Wizards of the Coast or anyone else.

3) I suspect one of the reasons for the huge changes introduced by 4E was to make a game sufficiently different, so that it cannot be reverse-engineered from 3.5E's Open Gaming License, so that WotC can regain complete control of D&D in that edition and (probably) future editions. 4E does not have an Open Gaming License - it has an STL license, which is similar to the d20 License (is limited in what it includes, can be pulled by WotC at will and so on and so on).

 

Sorry about the long posts, but I have been following the licenses and their development for a long time, so I sometimes post excessively about these issues.

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What I meant is that it makes the critical failures make sense. So everyone doesn't automatically fail once out of every 20 tries on average and someone who isn't very skilled has a much higher chance of screwing up really bad.

 

I'm not saying that dice pools will make anything magically more realistic, but almost every cRPG that has dice rolls has the d20 system for no good reason.

Edited by Purkake
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Why is everyone so in love with d20 anyway? A system using dice pools is more realistic and just generally better.

 

What I meant is that it makes the critical failures make sense. So everyone doesn't automatically fail once out of every 20 tries on average and someone who isn't very skilled has a much higher chance of screwing up really bad.

 

I'm not saying that dice pools will make anything magically more realistic, but almost every cRPG that has dice rolls has the d20 system for no good reason.

 

Well, highest and lowest values are the only places where a dice pool is more realistic. Even there, simple rules can get rid of automatic success or automatic failure - for example, I have implemented exploding dice upwards and imploding dice downwards.

 

The d20 die has the advantage of the right level of granularity and easy decimal calculation (each point on a die is equivalent to 5%). These are important features.

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I would definitely purchase a Pathfinder CRPG if it were done by Obsidian (barring some red flags, of course, such as it being a MMO and so on). Heck, I advocated a Pathfinder CRPG already during the playtest process before the Pathfinder RPG was even released.

 

As the licenses make clear, legal issues would not be a problem. I think a bigger issue is whether some CRPG developer (such as Obsidian :) ) would want to license the CRPG from Paizo. Paizo is not a huge company, albeit growing pretty fast, and Pathfinder is probably not as popular as some other franchises and certainly not as popular as D&D or 4E. That said, Pathfinder is rapidly gaining in popularity and seeing unexpected sales - the core book that just came out had the biggest print-run Paizo has ever made and it sold out before it hit the street. Currently, they are in the process of doing a second print run. Hence, the game is clearly succeeding beyond expectations and selling very well. That does give some hope for the possibility of a future Pathfinder CRPG game.

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Well, I actually will love a Pathfinder based CRPG from Obsidian (or at least Bioware, no others).

 

I will also love a World of Darkness (in particular Vampire: The Requiem) CRPG from Obsidian (I'm praying on my knees for this one), for a great sequel to Vampire: Bloodlines, one of my all-time favourite, from another great company at making CRPGs, now departed Troika Games!

"I feel stronger"

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I think a bigger issue is whether some CRPG developer (such as Obsidian ) would want to license the CRPG from Paizo. Paizo is not a huge company, albeit growing pretty fast, and Pathfinder is probably not as popular as some other franchises and certainly not as popular as D&D or 4E. That said, Pathfinder is rapidly gaining in popularity and seeing unexpected sales - the core book that just came out had the biggest print-run Paizo has ever made and it sold out before it hit the street. Currently, they are in the process of doing a second print run. Hence, the game is clearly succeeding beyond expectations and selling very well. That does give some hope for the possibility of a future Pathfinder CRPG game.

 

I take your point, but I don't think this is the problem you envisage. In fact, you could present it as a win-win. CRPG gamers who like rulesets would like a Pathfinder-based game because of the ruleset. OTOH, Joe Gamer only wants to play a fun game and is un-bothered about what's going on under the hood as long as he / she can understand the key issues for his character and gameplay.

 

I'd happily buy a Pathfinder-based CRPG, but conversely I'd also buy a game that was fun nomatter what the game ruleset.

 

Cheers

MC

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