Dragon Age Origins

[Aristes]

I agree about Deionarra completely.

 

I don't think of voice acting unless it is either very good or very bad. If I cringe every time I hear voice over work, it detracts from the game. If the scene is particularly well done, then I'm probably going to remember it quite fondly. In particular, Blizzard has fine voice over work. Say whatever else you will about them, the folks at Bliz know how to put together a cut scene.

 

I'm a fan, and therefore quite biased, but the voice over work in PS:T was awesome. I think Annah is one of the few voices that I actually found sexy, and she really didn't have many lines as I recall. Wonderful voice work though.

 

I've said everything I have to say about romances in some AP thread. I don't want to go into rant mode here. Suffice it to say that I want a good mix of tactical combat and role playing, but romances distract me but don't add to my role playing experience. However, if we must have romances, why not homosexual ones? *shrug*

 

HNPL is a very nice woman, I'm sure. I just hope Boo was wrong about the nipples thing. Yikes!

 

Finally, now that I'm sure I'll buy the game, I just want it to come out. I still don't know if I'll go human noble/mage or elven mage. There's a good chance I'll go elven wanderer on a second playthrough. I might go human or elven commoner, but I doubt it. You dwarves can pound sand, and you know why!

[RPGmasterBoo]

There were wonderfully fleshed characters in Planescape, but Deionarra was not one of them. Deionarra's only personality trait was that she was utterly devoted to the Nameless One, but that also happened to be a personality trait of almost every major NPC in the game.

 

Perhaps but there was an instant feeling of connection to the character, as if its someone you've really known before. She felt real, but I suppose that's a subjective experience.

 

To me she was. All the crap the previous incarnations had done, Deionnarras fate made me feel lot more sorry than others. And the music that plays near her is pretty damn good.

 

And that.

 

Though all the other companions were just as good. Wish I could have opened Fall-from-Grace's journal.

Edited August 11, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Aristes]

There were wonderfully fleshed characters in Planescape, but Deionarra was not one of them. Deionarra's only personality trait was that she was utterly devoted to the Nameless One, but that also happened to be a personality trait of almost every major NPC in the game.

I disagree. Deionarra is fleshed out not by her own person but in the memories and other information the Nameless One receives during the game. It's kind of like a character in a novel who is actually rarely in the scene but commands attention through other characters. The game refers to Deionarra quite a bit, and that is something that makes her intriguing even if she doesn't deliver the lines herself.

[RPGmasterBoo]

There were wonderfully fleshed characters in Planescape, but Deionarra was not one of them. Deionarra's only personality trait was that she was utterly devoted to the Nameless One, but that also happened to be a personality trait of almost every major NPC in the game.

I disagree. Deionarra is fleshed out not by her own person but in the memories and other information the Nameless One receives during the game. It's kind of like a character in a novel who is actually rarely in the scene but commands attention through other characters. The game refers to Deionarra quite a bit, and that is something that makes her intriguing even if she doesn't deliver the lines herself.

 

She means, as in knowing more about the character, her motivations, likes and dislikes etc. However these aren't prerequisites for connecting to her fate, and neither does the lack of conventional character development lessen my impression of Deionarra.

 

Now thats a feat.

 

i cant help it:

Edited August 11, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Purkake]

Deionarra was voiced by Jennifer Hale, who did the Female Shepard in Mass Effect. She's pretty good.

[Maria Caliban]

I don't think of voice acting unless it is either very good or very bad. If I cringe every time I hear voice over work, it detracts from the game. If the scene is particularly well done, then I'm probably going to remember it quite fondly. In particular, Blizzard has fine voice over work. Say whatever else you will about them, the folks at Bliz know how to put together a cut scene.

 

I'm a fan, and therefore quite biased, but the voice over work in PS:T was awesome. I think Annah is one of the few voices that I actually found sexy, and she really didn't have many lines as I recall. Wonderful voice work though.

 

Planescape reminds me of BioShock, in that it's dominated by its atmosphere. Voice work is never good or bad, it's just what the character sounds like. This may mean that I interpret the character in a different way than the writer/designer intended.

 

Perhaps but there was an instant feeling of connection to the character, as if its someone you've really known before. She felt real, but I suppose that's a subjective experience.

 

Sure there

[RPGmasterBoo]

Sure there’s an instant feeling of connection. Your character is an amnesiac waking up in a morgue, and the spirit of a woman is telling you that you once were lovers while beautiful music plays.

 

I’m not doubting the connection, only the personality.

 

Okay then. If she’s fleshed out, tell me what she was like, other than that she loved the NO, was devoted to him, and it was tragic for her. What were her interests? Was she a shy woman or outgoing? What sort of things did she find funny? What were her strengths? What were her weaknesses? What were her hopes? What were her fears?

 

Note: It could also come of as corny or presumptuous, yet it didn't, also it could have been an emotional blank - but it wasnt.

 

I think you're arguing different points. Most of us here, I assume, feel that Deionarra was a very "real" character. Being fleshed out to the point of knowing her favorite color is obviously not necessary. Indeed many "fleshed out" characters in say Mass Effect feel absolutely trite. Therefore while you're probably right in the point you are arguing it has no meaning beyond pointing out that Deionarra's appeal obviously doesn't stem out of a conventional character build. Not only that, she apparently doesn't need one at all to have an impact - which is quite hard to achieve.

Edited August 11, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Starwars]

Yep, Deionarra is not a very fleshed out character. That's fine, because you can have a good character anyways. Her purpose is to provide somewhat of a window in the Nameless One's past. The stuff that is touching about Deionarra is not her (because again, we don't particularly get to know anything about her), but the Nameless One himself and his past actions. How cruel he (that particular incarnation) could be, and how messed up his "life" is. And just how much impact his curse has had on not only himself, but other people also.

 

But yeah, she was pulled of well.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Starwars

[Maria Caliban]

Note: It could also come of as corny or presumptuous, yet it didn't, also it could have been an emotional blank - but it wasnt.

 

I think you're arguing different points. Most of us here, I assume, feel that Deionarra was a very "real" character. Being fleshed out to the point of knowing her favorite color is obviously not necessary. Indeed many "fleshed out" characters in say Mass Effect feel absolutely trite. Therefore while you're probably right in the point you are arguing it has no meaning beyond pointing out that Deionarra's appeal obviously doesn't stem out of a conventional character build.

 

I'm not going to argue your feelings. What I'm saying is that the reason she felt real was that she was utterly unreal. You called her a deep character, and I disagree. She's shallow and one-dimensional, and that's her appeal. She's like the Lady of Shallot or the bride who keeps her candle burning as she waits for her bridegroom throughout the night or the companion cube from Portal. Deionarra does not have personality because she's not a person; she's a symbol.

 

That you feel strongly isn't strange. People react strongly to symbols. Nor is that fact that they're using a stock character a bad thing as it's very effective in the sort of solipsistic viewpoint Planescape encourages.

 

Edit: This isn't me saying Deionarra was BAD or a product of BAD writing. Shakespeare did the same thing. As did Milton and Dante.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Maria Caliban

[entrerix]

what's important though is that we all recognize how INSANELY GOOD Planescape: torment was, and how we'll be lucky to ever have a game of that caliber again.

 

edit: she was more than a symbol though. The sensate stone with the memories of the evil incarnation twisting her around his finger. her reactions. that was intensity and character. not just symbolism

Edited August 11, 2009 by entrerix

[Purkake]

I'm not going to argue your feelings. What I'm saying is that the reason she felt real was that she was utterly unreal. You called her a deep character, and I disagree. She's shallow and one-dimensional, and that's her appeal. She’s like the Lady of Shallot or the bride who keeps her candle burning as she waits for her bridegroom throughout the night or the companion cube from Portal. Deionarra does not have personality because she’s not a person; she’s a symbol.

 

I can see your point, but I'd say the difference is that she could have been anything, so she's a more open ended character than the candle lady for example. The way she was written in the game was shallow, but her character doesn't necessarily have to be.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Purkake

[RPGmasterBoo]

As in this:

 

I stood before another sensory stone. The base of this aquatic blue stone had been sculpted so it appeared to have melted into the pedestal it rested upon. A stream of perfect azure tears dripped down the sides, framing the inscription beneath the pedestal:

[Maria Caliban]

Yes, the dark and ruthless man exploiting the virtuous woman who loves him. A common theme in romance novels, and it takes great skill present that to an audience of mostly young men without them whinging.

 

But, as I said previously, I

[HoonDing]

OTOH, Liam Neeson does VO in Dragon Age, which whichever way you split it is pretty impressive.

No kidding?

[Aristes]

I think we can tell a lot about Deionarra by the evidence. We rarely hear about her in her own words, but we can take what others say and do, as well as the situation itself, as bits of information to flesh out her character.

 

What do we know for sure?

 

She was powerful enough to keep the Nameless One's company.

 

Since the evidence is fairly strong on the point that the Nameless One used her, she was gullible enough to follow him.

 

She had some abilities that the Nameless One thought would be useful in his failed attempt in the Negative Material Plane.

 

She had sufficient force of will to remain faithful to the Nameless One, and the dedication or stupidity to stay faithful to him even after the evidence was clear that she'd been used.

 

How do we know she has the knowledge that she'd been used? We don't know for sure, but she has some special insight without which the Nameless One cannot prevail in his struggle.

 

We know that she was a local of Sigil and that her father is a clerk in the city.

 

We know that she had the foresight to put away somethings that would be helpful to the Nameless One later.

 

She was a sensate in real life which, I contend, does tell us something of her motivations beyond the Nameless One.

 

No, she's not completely fleshed out, but she's not completely opaque either. We learn a lot about Deionarra simply from adventuring. Even if we follow the main quest path, we'll learn something about Deionarra. Not only that, but we learn a lot about not only the previous Nameless One, but we learn something about ourselves. Do we have regret over how we treated her? Do we want to console her father? Do we simply want to continue using her as we did before? Deionarra is a strong character and just because we only see a certain side of her doesn't mean there isn't evidence of more behind the facade. This isn't some sort of Gogolesque Caricature.

 

EDIT: it's amazing to me how I can skip entire words while writing a post. It's maddening.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Aristes

[RPGmasterBoo]

Yes, the dark and ruthless man exploiting the virtuous woman who loves him. A common theme in romance novels, and it takes great skill present that to an audience of mostly young men without them whinging.

 

But, as I said previously, I

[Monte Carlo]

OTOH, Liam Neeson does VO in Dragon Age, which whichever way you split it is pretty impressive.

No kidding?

 

He has a fantastic speaking voice when he drops the Transatlantic drawl he's picked up, resonant and rich.

 

Planescape navel gazing = meh.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Monte Carlo

[Monte Carlo]

^ Checked it out again, my bad I got confused with the FO3 article I read - he did the father's voice at the prologue of FO3.

 

I am a complete dunce, forgive me

[Maria Caliban]

Why are we exluding Torment? It had a bunch of deep characters and was done by the same authors.

 

The majority of RPGs don't have deep characterization. It's a product of the fixation on loot, combat, and leveling, and the illusion of choice.

 

Kate from Syberia is a deep character. Garret from Thief is a deep character. The Prince from Sands of Time is a deep character (even in Warrior Within when he

[Oner]

Why are we exluding Torment? It had a bunch of deep characters and was done by the same authors.

 

The majority of RPGs don't have deep characterization. It's a product of the fixation on loot, combat, and leveling, and the illusion of choice.

 

Kate from Syberia is a deep character. Garret from Thief is a deep character. The Prince from Sands of Time is a deep character (even in Warrior Within when he

[HoonDing]

Kate from Syberia is a deep character.

The way her character changed throughout the first game was masterfully done by B. Sokal -- it was very nice to experience through those cell-phone conversations with the homefront how she gradually grew beyond her 'old life'.

 

But April Ryan > all.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Why are we exluding Torment? It had a bunch of deep characters and was done by the same authors.

 

The majority of RPGs don't have deep characterization. It's a product of the fixation on loot, combat, and leveling, and the illusion of choice.

 

Kate from Syberia is a deep character. Garret from Thief is a deep character. The Prince from Sands of Time is a deep character (even in Warrior Within when he’s at his most shallow), as is Elika from the new series. Deekan, bizarrely enough, is a fairly deep character, as is Jindo from Knights of the Old Republic. Andrew Ryan is a deep character. Triss Marigold is a deep character.

 

Because its safe to assume that we don't need to argue the depth of most Torment characters.

 

Funnily enough, I played all those games and never felt that. But Syberia and Thief were long ago... I'm assuming you mean Jolee Bindo from KOTOR. Don't see whats so deep about him apart from a little moral relativity, so out of place in SW's fairytale universe. Andrew Ryan either. He's not a character but a spokesperson for a philosophy of questionable value, much like Rands own characters. Deekin also is a vague memory.

 

Triss is well thought out I agree, a woman balancing between her feelings, duty and ambition.

 

I would add Imoen, from BGII onwards, summarized in her character change from joyful youth to distraught maturity. It might be jarring but its quite good. As well as both of the romances Aerie and Jaheira, they really gave depth to the characters. Viconia was a bit of a parody.

Edited August 11, 2009 by RPGmasterBoo

[Purkake]

Nothing is beyond criticism, Boo. If something is good enough, it can stand the scrutiny. By bringing out both the good and bad in something you can get a better understanding of it, just look at all the literary criticism.

 

I totally agree with you on April Ryan, Virumor.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Purkake

[Maria Caliban]

Don't you mean Deekin and Bindo?

 

I do mean that. Thank you.

[213374U]

I'm assuming you mean Jolee Bindo from KOTOR. Don't see whats so deep about him apart from a little moral relativity, so out of place in SW's fairytale universe.

Nothing morally relative about this Jindo guy. He's a Lawful Good disgruntled Jedi, and that's about it. His "grey" light/dark force meter made no sense.

 

He's well fleshed out because you get a good overview of what makes him tickle. What he likes, what he doesn't, why he follows you, what's his story. And you also get a few hints that his "senile old man" persona is just a fa