FO: NV

[Slowtrain]

VATS is flawless, leave it as is.

 

 

You really enjoy sitting through all those slomo animations, don't you?

 

 

I just don't have the patience for it, and given that VATS has no significant tactical use that makes it interesting, those slomos really make it an unpleasant experience for me.

 

ergo, I don't use it. Except very rarely when I get annoyed at the AI and just want it to hold still so I can shoot it.

[CoM_Solaufein]

I don't mind the slow motion. It may get tiring after awhile, in that case go back to right mouse clicking sight them in with your weapon. Which I do most of the time. I use VATS as a last resort like if I am getting ganged up on or if I get caught of guard.

[entrerix]

i REALLY REALLY like crashgirls suggestions for adding more depth to both vats and real time combat

 

how about being able to go prone to improve accuracy and have a smaller sillhouette(sp?)

 

or having aimed shots cost extra ap (great idea - thats been in existence for decades in other games...)

 

having reloading cost ap

 

being able to move in vats at the cost of ap

 

 

Unfortunately, all of these things are not gonna happen, because the dev time is only long enough for new content like story and characters.

 

Hell i bet the entire game is being made with the toolset, so it's just going to be a mod/dlc with outstanding production values, a great coherent story, and fascinating complex characters all played IDENTICALLY to fallout 3.

 

and honestly, if thats really what we get, I'll be happy enough, because its still leaps and bounds better than what fallout 3 was.

 

go team venture

[Gizmo]

IMO VATS should be a standard shot [in and out], but do the slo-mo critical if that shot scored an exceptional roll [possibly changing the mechanics to suit, if need be].

 

With the other Fallouts an aimed shot was the same as a regular one [except for the actual aiming menu and the cost].

 

I can see a modified VATS as working just like pressing the button to go in, and pressing the button to exit without a shot ~only with a shot , and if there is an awesome critical hit ~then do the cinematic.

 

~That is how it should have been from the start right?

[Slowtrain]

Unfortunately, all of these things are not gonna happen, because the dev time is only long enough for new content like story and characters.

 

Hell i bet the entire game is being made with the toolset, so it's just going to be a mod/dlc with outstanding production values, a great coherent story, and fascinating complex characters all played IDENTICALLY to fallout 3.

 

 

Yeah, I would guess that you are probably right, and, just as you say, that WOULD be enough to make it worthwhile to play.

 

But, still, until we hear otherwise, I am going on both the assumption and that hope that Obsidian might be able to do some tinkering under the hood, and maybe add some neat features like a flashlight or a slightly more interesting VATS or a slightly more interesting weapon mod system or whatever.

 

We shall see.

 

It WOULD be nice to get some more official news about the scope of the game.

[Gizmo]

Whoa! This bit of game mechanics needs to be fixed.

 

Is this common? (I never had the perk or the Mesmetron to know).

[bhlaab]

I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure that in VATS, your character is actually acting/moving/operating faster than everyone else. So going to "real time" would still create some problems.

 

I've got a mod that turns off VATs slowmo. There's still a slight "slow mo" feel to it, but only about 3% of what's usually there. It looks fine (except for when it awkwardly jumps to FP view in close quarters, but that's awkward in slowmo as well I guess)

 

I've got another mod that attempts to simulate turn based by slowing down all the enemies even more so that they are more or less frozen as you take your shot-- then you're forced to stand still and do nothing as your ap recharges. It doesn't work very well, but it's proof enough that the variables can be altered.

 

And hey! Wait a minute! Aren't you of all people supposed to be "positive" about this stuff???

Edited May 14, 2009 by bhlaab

[HoonDing]

I think enemies should do 100% damage to the PC in VATS, instead of the 10% like it is now; with current VATS, one can simply wait for a charging enemy to get into point blank range, and cue up shots with a powerful weapon for an easy kill as enemies' damage is negligible - even with powerful ones like Yao Guai or Deathclaws.

 

Of course, this makes it possible for the PC to die upon exiting VATS (which I think is the reason why Bethesda included the 10% damage rule), but is this really a problem? At least it would make the use of VATS a bit more strategical.

 

Also, I'd like to see Action Points spent on entering the Pip-Boy during combat - this prevents healing/buffing during combat and should make combat a tad more challenging.

[entrerix]

lol yeah i got a kick out of sawyer saying "I don't know how all this works"

 

THATS the type of thing you probably shouldnt be saying to the rabble.

 

you should rather be saying "I'd like to include a town like ________ but we'll see what we have time for..."

 

keep it vague and non-commital, but still telling us about your mindset so we can then be entertained and excited.

 

and after all you need us excited because.... well ....you don't. but whatever

[Pop]

VATS is flawless, leave it as is.

I don't agree with this. While VATS is functional it has the capacity to easily become a "win button" because in many situations it makes skill stats practically meaningless, something Sawyer pointed out some time ago. If you're in VATS melee, for example, you'll never really get below, what, 90 percent hit chance? And the damage difference between a guy with a 30 melee skill and a 50 melee skill is fairly negligible. What's the point of tagging melee when all characters are basically the same with it? Similarly, the real-time nature of combat outside of VATS allows you to close distances between you and your target and similarly negate skill deficiencies with whatever ranged weapons you're using. How do you balance something like that?

Edited May 14, 2009 by Pop

[bhlaab]

I'd like to see VATS heavily expanded-- pull out to a sattelite view and from there you can spend ap on movement, reloading, non-targeted shots, item use...

 

I'd also like to see enemies have limited amounts of ammo and have to spend action points to move so they can't just charge you and unload

[entrerix]

FIX AI ISSUE:

 

how awesome was it in deus ex that you could just plant mines in the airplane where navarre would come to pick up the resistence dude and she'd get thwacked before you had to fire a single bullet.

 

goddamn that game was awesome.

 

 

how much did it suck when you planted a landmine in fallout 3 and a person walked over it and KNEW IT WAS YOUR LANDMINE even though no one saw you plant it?

 

I remember having the idea of assasinating people with landmines by figuring out their travel route and then sneaking over to plant the mine... I unfortunately did not foresee telepathic enemies...

[Slowtrain]

[similarly, the real-time nature of combat outside of VATS allows you to close distances between you and your target and similarly negate skill deficiencies with whatever ranged weapons you're using. How do you balance something like that?

 

I think that part of the problem is that skill levels don't play enough of a role in determining combat proficiency. When I first played FO3 I always raised my weapon skills as fast as possible, but it didn't take long before I relized that there wasn't a huge difference between a 90 small guns and a 30 small guns.

 

In my curent game, I am level 7 and my highest weapon skill is big guns at 55% (melee at 50, energy at 20, small guns at 12), and I am in no hurry to raise any of them. My character is etremely effective with the magnum even with a 12 skill.

 

I think that's some not so good game design. If a game is going to have skills, that sheould have a significant impact on the game, otherwise leave them out.

[Slowtrain]

FIX AI ISSUE:

 

how awesome was it in deus ex that you could just plant mines in the airplane where navarre would come to pick up the resistence dude and she'd get thwacked before you had to fire a single bullet.

 

goddamn that game was awesome.

 

 

how much did it suck when you planted a landmine in fallout 3 and a person walked over it and KNEW IT WAS YOUR LANDMINE even though no one saw you plant it?

 

I remember having the idea of assasinating people with landmines by figuring out their travel route and then sneaking over to plant the mine... I unfortunately did not foresee telepathic enemies...

 

 

I really think the stupidity of the human AI in running over your landmines one after another like a moron, is a pretty huge design flaw.

 

If you plant them in an obvious place, they should see them and either avoid them or attempt to disarm them.

 

Using mines against the AI is really an exploit at this point.

[entrerix]

it was just one mine... and it was in the dirt so I'm not surprised he didnt see it.

 

I dont think that's the problem...

[Slowtrain]

it was just one mine... and it was in the dirt so I'm not surprised he didnt see it.

 

I dont think that's the problem...

 

 

I'm just talking generally.

 

You can plant a mile long string of mines down a corridor and a whole bunch of raiders will chase you right down the corridor.

 

 

BOOM

BOOM

BOOM

BOOM

BOOM

 

 

No more raiders. Its funny as hell, but it's pretty weak AI.

[HoonDing]

I really think the stupidity of the human AI in running over your landmines one after another like a moron, is a pretty huge design flaw.

 

If you plant them in an obvious place, they should see them and either avoid them or attempt to disarm them.

 

Using mines against the AI is really an exploit at this point.

Not to mention, enemies not being alarmed by corpses of their friends' corpses lying around... games like No One Lives Forever already had better AI than this.

 

Also, better pathfinding... sometimes if the PC jumps off a rock or ledge, companions will make a huge detour to get to you; not to mention people are still walking/running into walls like in Oblivion.

[Jaesun]

...companions will make a huge detour to get to you; not to mention people are still walking/running into walls like in Oblivion.

 

Personally, I'd prefer it if NV had no companions.

[Aristes]

...companions will make a huge detour to get to you; not to mention people are still walking/running into walls like in Oblivion.

 

Personally, I'd prefer it if NV had no companions.

 

ditto

[Kjarista]

RE VATS:

 

I have not used VATS in quite some time. I would prefer to have VATS continue to be optional.

[bhlaab]

VATS without slowmo (theres an HD version)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fpHAcUl-as

Edited May 14, 2009 by bhlaab

[Gizmo]

VATS without slowmo (theres an HD version)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fpHAcUl-as

That's fantastic!

[Gromnir]

VATS is flawless, leave it as is.

I don't agree with this. While VATS is functional it has the capacity to easily become a "win button" because in many situations it makes skill stats practically meaningless, something Sawyer pointed out some time ago. If you're in VATS melee, for example, you'll never really get below, what, 90 percent hit chance? And the damage difference between a guy with a 30 melee skill and a 50 melee skill is fairly negligible. What's the point of tagging melee when all characters are basically the same with it? Similarly, the real-time nature of combat outside of VATS allows you to close distances between you and your target and similarly negate skill deficiencies with whatever ranged weapons you're using. How do you balance something like that?

 

am agreeing that vats is far too easy to exploit-- becomes a win button. by the same token, w/o vats, you is presented with the "lose button" scenario. am not ceratin where the giant radscorpisons seems to spawn from in game, but am unable to count high 'nuff to recollect the number o' times Gromnir sudden realized that a giant rad scorpion were only a few meters away... in spite o' our super-high perception. w/o vats we would pretty much be consigned to a reload. the mudskippers, or whatever they is called, were also a pain outside o' vats. sure, if Gromnir can set up a nice sniper location, we can go for the near essential face shot on the crab-men... but in some o' those building locations...

 

am recalling how josh sneered at fans who used vats... suggested that use o' vats weren't "legitimate." HA! Gromnir played most o' game sans vats, 'cause it were more challenging to do so, but am not anywhere near subscribing to sawyer level o' contempt for vats and vats users, particular in light o' the fact that vats saved our bacon more than once. heck, the real playing field leveler for us most o' the time were the victory rifle. knockdown effect made killing the tough critters easy... as long as you had some real estate to work with.

 

make vats less over powereing... and take out some o' the game elements that makes vats a near necessity, but to say that anybody who uses vats ain't playing legit? as if these games got a "legit."

 

HA! Good Fun!

[J.E. Sawyer]

And hey! Wait a minute! Aren't you of all people supposed to be "positive" about this stuff???

I don't go hacking around in code with a machete, and VATS is fairly complicated. FrankK (our lead programmer) would have a better understanding of VATS code mechanics than I do. Your character obviously snaps around when making VATS unarmed and melee attacks when the camera cuts, but when it comes to movement rates/reload speeds/etc., it can be hard to tell from observation if one or more actors' speed is being altered.

 

am recalling how josh sneered at fans who used vats... suggested that use o' vats weren't "legitimate." HA! Gromnir played most o' game sans vats, 'cause it were more challenging to do so, but am not anywhere near subscribing to sawyer level o' contempt for vats and vats users

That's a gross exaggeration. The initial comment to which you are referring was differentiating scoped sniper rifle shots from VATS sniper rifle shots. You bound up an enormous amount of unintended prejudice from that in way that continues to bewilder me. I used VATS on and off throughout F3 and don't consider a player to be inherently any better/worse for using VATS or not. That said, the mechanics of the sniper rifle clearly reward people more for taking scoped headshots outside of VATS.

[J.E. Sawyer]

VATS without slowmo (theres an HD version)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fpHAcUl-as

Sweet.