FO: NV

[Aram]

If I had control of an RPG and a million illegal immigrants on typewriters I'd have a different, detailed description for every different object you can find, even otherwise identical objects.

"This shotgun has someone's name carved into the stock. What an ****."

"This particular pistol used to belong to a famous lawman. It's no better than usual, but it's definitely got some bodies on it."

Why not, that's why.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Aram

[alanschu]

Something else I'd love to see make a return - item description. Those in Fo1 and Fo2 were great and gave that little extra bit of complexity and versimilitude to the world. It'd be even greater if some of the vintage descriptions (Glock 86, Wattz 1000 etc.) made a return. Because they're awesome.

 

Yeah, if there's anything I hate in an RPG its stats being described by nonsense acronyms, or worse icons. DAMs, CONDs, DRs, even Fire Resistance +10s...

 

I hate feeling like the loot I'm picking up is there just to be loot

 

 

I think it was someone from Black Isle, but I can't remember specifically, that commented that one thing that was very disheartening was coming up with all of these neat item descriptions and backstories, only to see an overwhelming majority of gamers immediately scroll to the bottom to see what the stat boosts were.

[213374U]

If I had control of an RPG and a million illegal immigrants on typewriters I'd have a different, detailed description for every different object you can find, even otherwise identical objects.

"This shotgun has someone's name carved into the stock. What an ****."

"This particular pistol used to belong to a famous lawman. It's no better than usual, but it's definitely got some bodies on it."

Why not, that's why.

You hiring?

[Aristes]

Might have been Puuk. I seem to recall the same thing as well. For my part, I'm happy to have minimal flavor text on weapons as long as the truly unique ones have something about them. The vast majority of weapons can have a standard snippet applied to them.

 

IWD, Kelverin pointed out in the now playing thread, had some great flavor text. I'm thinking especially of the mace (or flail or whatever) where the handle was wrapped in the skin of elven maidens or some such. It wasn't just the idea, but the phrasing that was excellent.

[Tigranes]

I think it was someone from Black Isle, but I can't remember specifically, that commented that one thing that was very disheartening was coming up with all of these neat item descriptions and backstories, only to see an overwhelming majority of gamers immediately scroll to the bottom to see what the stat boosts were.

 

The issue with item descriptions in the BG / IWD series were that they didn't provide bang for the buck; i.e. for all the text that you had to read through, it wasn't interesting or memorable enough to justify you spending that time. I feel the same way, incidentally, about most books in Oblivion (and about half in Morrowind). I think part of it was that they felt compelled to write a full essay on each one - set the scene, narrate in a traditional fantasy manner, etc, etc.

 

There were a few gems in there, though, especially the more lackadaisical ones.

[Slowtrain]

It didn't help that most of the "books" written for MW and Oblivion were total ass and went on far too long. At least item descriptions are usually short and to the point. I think I always read them completely in the IE games. I can't say the same about ES "books".

[Syraxis]

It didn't help that most of the "books" written for MW and Oblivion were total ass and went on far too long. At least item descriptions are usually short and to the point. I think I always read them completely in the IE games. I can't say the same about ES "books".

 

Weren't most of the books in Oblivion brought over from Morrowind?

[bhlaab]

I think it was someone from Black Isle, but I can't remember specifically, that commented that one thing that was very disheartening was coming up with all of these neat item descriptions and backstories, only to see an overwhelming majority of gamers immediately scroll to the bottom to see what the stat boosts were.

 

To be perfectly honest, I'm not saying I'd go out of my way to read them-- I don't really care about the lore of the dumb sword.

I'm just saying that even this:

 

is better than

 

 

in my book

[Slowtrain]

It didn't help that most of the "books" written for MW and Oblivion were total ass and went on far too long. At least item descriptions are usually short and to the point. I think I always read them completely in the IE games. I can't say the same about ES "books".

 

Weren't most of the books in Oblivion brought over from Morrowind?

 

 

Yes. Not too many new ones were done for Oblivion. Too busy with the Radiant "AI", I guess.

 

"I saw some mudcrabs down by the water this week"

 

"They've got sharp claws."

 

"Yes, they do."

 

 

Who the hell wrote that awesome ****? I want an autograph.

[alanschu]

I think it was someone from Black Isle, but I can't remember specifically, that commented that one thing that was very disheartening was coming up with all of these neat item descriptions and backstories, only to see an overwhelming majority of gamers immediately scroll to the bottom to see what the stat boosts were.

 

To be perfectly honest, I'm not saying I'd go out of my way to read them-- I don't really care about the lore of the dumb sword.

I'm just saying that even this:

 

is better than

 

 

in my book

 

 

 

I agree. Just stating that it's frustrating as a game developer to put so much effort into stuff only to have many people (I'd argue most) not even care. While it sucks, I can understand why these types of write ups are less and less. At the same time though, as graphical fidelity improves and animation systems get better, there are a lot of things that used to be very wordy but no longer need to be. This can be a good thing.

[HoonDing]

It didn't help that most of the "books" written for MW and Oblivion were total ass and went on far too long. At least item descriptions are usually short and to the point. I think I always read them completely in the IE games. I can't say the same about ES "books".

I liked the skill books since it was clear & plausible how one would learn something by reading it and put nicely in context of a story. In a way it was very similar from how skills are learnt in Gothic 3, where one needs to talk to a trainer that shares some of his wisdom, except it is put in book-form. Collecting books was one of my favourite pastimes in Morrowind - their point is largely to make players that are interested more acquainted with the lore & history of the world, so it's logical that they wouldn't be short & succinct. Oblivion... totally fails when it comes to books. Only interesting, new book I can remember is one dealing with vampire lore.

 

I think an entire new ES game could be made based on "The real Barenziah" or "History of the Wolf Queen". Oh, and I want the stuff that the guy (Michael Kirkbride) was smoking when he wrote "36 lessons of Vivec". I can only thing of one other game that allowed the player to read books in such detail, and that's The Longest Journey.

 

As for Fallout, I would definitely want item descriptions back. It really helps fleshing out a game world. I'd even go one step further: make FO3's skill books like "Duck& Cover", "Dean's electronics" and what not, actually readable like in Morrowind. I was disappointed first time I clicked a skill book in my PipBoy that there merely was a lame message popping up that said "Your skill increased 1 point"..

[Oner]

As for Fallout, I would definitely want item descriptions back. It really helps fleshing out a game world. I'd even go one step further: make FO3's skill books like "Duck& Cover", "Dean's electronics" and what not, actually readable like in Morrowind. I was disappointed first time I clicked a skill book in my PipBoy that there merely was a lame message popping up that said "Your skill increased 1 point"..

You guys forget something slightly more important than item descriptions. (Well, two things actually, FO 3 had combat taunts but they don't even come close to FO 2's.)

Pic borrowed from Let's Play.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Oner

[jjc]

You guys forget something slightly more important than item descriptions. (Well, two things actually, FO 3 had combat taunts but they don't even come close to FO 2's.)

[PICTURE]

Those completely ruled.

 

A very annoying thing about RPGs being designed for consoles is the removal of the little scrolling text windows.

It would make a huge difference if they left one in for a game like Fallout 3 and triggered flavor text while you walked around certain locations. You could actually say something specific about Office #2 in Ruined Factory #30 without trying to imply it through dramatically arranged skeletons and diary entries on computer terminals. Everyone should explore ideas for visual storytelling in games, but you've got to admit your limitations when the building blocks of your story are restricted to the same desk, metal box, and rubble pile we already saw dozens of times in Ruined Factories #1-29.

[jero cvmi]

As for Fallout, I would definitely want item descriptions back. It really helps fleshing out a game world. I'd even go one step further: make FO3's skill books like "Duck& Cover", "Dean's electronics" and what not, actually readable like in Morrowind. I was disappointed first time I clicked a skill book in my PipBoy that there merely was a lame message popping up that said "Your skill increased 1 point"..

That's a good idea that would actually take a cool design feature from Elder Scrolls and fit it nicely into the Fallout universe.

 

I want Readable Cat's Paw with 50's style pinup girls.

[Oner]

I want Readable Cat's Paw with 50's style pinup girls.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[TwinkieGorilla]

i loved that text box. i think i want to re-install and play teh games just for those boxes. *sad face, nostalgia, etc*

[Wombat]

It didn't help that most of the "books" written for MW and Oblivion were total ass and went on far too long. At least item descriptions are usually short and to the point. I think I always read them completely in the IE games. I can't say the same about ES "books".

I liked the skill books since it was clear & plausible how one would learn something by reading it and put nicely in context of a story. In a way it was very similar from how skills are learnt in Gothic 3, where one needs to talk to a trainer that shares some of his wisdom, except it is put in book-form. Collecting books was one of my favourite pastimes in Morrowind - their point is largely to make players that are interested more acquainted with the lore & history of the world, so it's logical that they wouldn't be short & succinct. Oblivion... totally fails when it comes to books. Only interesting, new book I can remember is one dealing with vampire lore.

 

I think an entire new ES game could be made based on "The real Barenziah" or "History of the Wolf Queen". Oh, and I want the stuff that the guy (Michael Kirkbride) was smoking when he wrote "36 lessons of Vivec". I can only thing of one other game that allowed the player to read books in such detail, and that's The Longest Journey.

To my eyes, too, Oblivion has lost the charm which its predecessor had. The story-telling device of Morrowind is, although the approach may be different from that of dialogue focused ones, unique and interesting. The books in Morrowind are written in order to stimulate the imagination of the players and merge it with the unique-looking world. I think the play experiences between the players who read these books and who don't must be pretty different. They even helped the players to imagine the context of rather abstract responses of NPCs since they let the players glimpse at quite complex history and different views from various cultural backgrounds. Unfortunately, the majority probably don't read the books, ending up with experiencing only "robotic NPCs" and a "weird world". In Oblivon, I can think of only one quest which is tied to history of a long forgotten fortress, which was rather nicely done, though.

 

I guess this kind of lore cannot be popular in the current CRPGs and we probably shouldn't expect many of these things in FO:NV. Even making a single mystery-like quest which require the players to figure out what is happening/happened through written texts, might scare away some players.

[Kjarista]

I guess this kind of lore cannot be popular in the current CRPGs and we probably shouldn't expect many of these things in FO:NV. Even making a single mystery-like quest which require the players to figure out what is happening/happened through written texts, might scare away some players.

 

Well, I liked the books, in both MW and in Oblivion, and I liked the holotapes in FO3. Any device which can flesh out the story is a plus for me.

 

I also liked the visual storytelling in FO3. There were plenty of times in FO3 when I paused to determine just what happened in a place. The placement of bodies, blood stains on the floor and the walls, all told the story of a last stand, or a gunfight, or a lingering death.

 

I ran across a scene today that I have never seen before. At the edge of broken overpass, a small skeleton, hugging a teddybear with empty booze bottles near by. Imagine sitting on the edge there, overlooking miles of desolation, slowly building the courage to perhaps jump, and in the end, not being able to.

 

It would take a lot of text to tell that story.

[Oner]

I ran across a scene today that I have never seen before. At the edge of broken overpass, a small skeleton, hugging a teddybear with empty booze bottles near by. Imagine sitting on the edge there, overlooking miles of desolation, slowly building the courage to perhaps jump, and in the end, not being able to.

 

It would take a lot of text to tell that story.

You just told it in two lines.

[Kjarista]

I ran across a scene today that I have never seen before. At the edge of broken overpass, a small skeleton, hugging a teddybear with empty booze bottles near by. Imagine sitting on the edge there, overlooking miles of desolation, slowly building the courage to perhaps jump, and in the end, not being able to.

 

It would take a lot of text to tell that story.

You just told it in two lines.

 

And that's why more games don't do it. Seems as it's lost on most players.

[Wombat]

I guess this kind of lore cannot be popular in the current CRPGs and we probably shouldn't expect many of these things in FO:NV. Even making a single mystery-like quest which require the players to figure out what is happening/happened through written texts, might scare away some players.

 

Well, I liked the books, in both MW and in Oblivion, and I liked the holotapes in FO3. Any device which can flesh out the story is a plus for me.

 

I also liked the visual storytelling in FO3. There were plenty of times in FO3 when I paused to determine just what happened in a place. The placement of bodies, blood stains on the floor and the walls, all told the story of a last stand, or a gunfight, or a lingering death.

Although I wonder if it can replace what there are in texts, I agree that letting environments tell stories can be an option which also makes the graphic improvements more meaningful than just eye-candies. I think there have been quite many efforts in this respect and they say Dead Space did this well (I haven't played it). However, I didn't know Bethesda did it in FO3. Then again, watching the video of Point Lookout shows some Cthulhu feel. Especially in such setting, the atmosphere and writings can be combined into interesting effects, although this is not new or original. In fact, some people say Dead Space reminds them of System Shock 2. The same scheme has been being used in many other games (I think I wrote about a map of Thief 3 while back). Among them, however, I think Morrowind is unique in a way it tries to tell various stories about a world inhabited by various people with different cultural backgrounds. Of course, Morrowind is a different type of beast compared with FO and, probably, it would be interesting to see what Bethesda did in Point Lookout since it seems to be about an area devoid of human beings. The setting may be good for the feel of isolation but not so many people seem to be alive to tell the players stories. In this type of setting, I think System Shock 2 scheme would find its place.

[bhlaab]

That is one thing Fallout 3 did very well. My favorite is going into a blown apart house and seeing two skeletons spooning on the bed.

 

I think the text box was simply born out of necessity since a low-res isometric world is so abstracted. And you'll notice that Fallout 3 still has it in when it needs to in the form of popup boxes ("You notice bite marks on the neck of the corpse")

 

I miss the extra gags as much as anyone, but as the rule goes: when you can, show don't tell.

With the truncated item descriptions you're still telling, just less (which is even worse I'd say) So that's my beef with that.

Edited July 3, 2009 by bhlaab

[Oner]

How will the game show me that "humanoid bot's back up program ****.exe just kicked in"?

 

And noticing bite marks doesn't really make up for funny combat lines.

Edited July 3, 2009 by Oner

[Tagaziel]

With the truncated item descriptions you're still telling, just less (which is even worse I'd say) So that's my beef with that.

 

Bull****. No storytelling device is inherently superior to another, and especially not showing over telling. Please, enlighten me, how would descriptions from Fo1 and Fo2 be shown in the gameworld without being unnecessarily contrived:

 

A Wattz 1000 Laser Pistol. Civilian model, so the wattage is lower than military or police versions.

 

High tech armor, made out of advanced defensive polymers.

 

An AK-112 5mm Assault Rifle. An old military model, out of use around the time of the war.

 

An H&K L30 Gatling Laser. Designed specifically for military use, these were in the prototype stage at the beginning of the War. Multiple barrels allow longer firing before overheating.

 

A knife, balanced specifically for throwing. Made of titanium, and laser sharpened.

 

A Wattz Electronics C-U model motion sensor. Detects the movement of biological material over a distance of meters using a tuned radar device.

 

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Textual descriptions are meant to complement what's seen in game, to create coherency and aid suspension of disbelief, so that you feel that you're using something that exists and belongs to this world and wasn't just arbitrarily added to provide a thingamajig for your amusement.

[entrerix]

for the record, dead space was a remake of resident evil 4 (with aliens or creatures like The Thing instead of zomboids) set in a ripped off system shock scenario.

 

it was pretty decent though. but so far from original