Kelverin Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 No mods working today? J1 Visa Southern California Cleaning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aram Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 The anger tears me up inside! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I've never felt Gromnir was worth ignoring. I find his posts hard to read on most occasions, but he is only active in a few threads that he is passionate about, and they are all about specific games rather than the general threads where the rest of the community gets to know one another. Which is exactly the same thing we can say about Twinkie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwinkieGorilla Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 hey, gromnir. just checked out of curiousity. maybe you didn't notice when i told you...i have you on ignore and i'm not going to indulge in your forum-LARP games. wanna talk about self-indulgent nonsense? give your posts a read through, something i'm not inclined to do. want conversation? drop the LARP. until then you can continue having one-sided conversations with me until the end of time. Personally I'm about to put you on ignore because you're such a whiny dip****. You also use no punctuation and every third word you say is "lulz" so don't whine at people about how they post. you mean i don't capitalize, which is on purpose. i'm looking at all sorts of commas, dashes and other exciting marks in that post you quoted. also, you're exaggerating. also, i don't care. why would i need you to read my posts? hopw roewur ne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Maybe his ctrl and caps lock buttonsa re broken? We used to have another poster with a broken keyboard, he was always getting extra letters in every word he typed. It was funny, you could actually read his posts pretty easily once you recognized the pattern of the broken keys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristes Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Oh forget it. Why should games be art? Why not just be games? *shrug* It's probably pointless. Let's just say that the dialogue in Fallout 1/2 is not exactly Pulitzer prizewinning material either. Maybe games will be art someday, but in the meantime I want games to be fun. i've actually argued many times that videogames cannot truly be art because their primary goal is capital gain. art, in it's pure form...exists because the artist has something inside which needs to be purged. selling your art should be an afterthought meant to expose yourself to the greatest audience possible. but creating art with the intention to constantly compromise in order to make money immediately changes it from art to commodity. though i WILL argue to the death that some games are, to use a turn of phrase, more of a "work of art" than others. some games held onto their integrity and sunk their artistic principles so deep into them that they said "i hope people want a game like this. here goes nothin'" and you know what? that's why we have games like Grim Fandango, Fallout and Planescape. so anyway, the heck's yr point? that we're demanding Fallout be "art"? no. look, writing decent to average dialogue isn't that tough. the amount of head-slaps or eyes rolled while reading FO3's dialogue is heretofore unsurpassed by any game, ever. Eh, I've played more than a few games with writing on par with at least your better than average film--and not just RPGs. There are enough that when a game isn't up to snuff, one tends to notice it. I'm as sick of Fallout 3 ranting as anyone, but I have to say that the writing in Fallout 3 was a noticeable step down from 1 & 2, and the biggest disappointment for me personally. I see good dialogue writing in an RPG as when it actually feels like you're handling a real conversation, rather than just working your way through dialogue options until the responses start to loop, and you find the options that either trigger "walk away" or "attack." glad you brought that up as i was just about to. nothing felt natural and the choices seemed either completely obvious or empty and arbitrary. i got so sick of the embarrassing dialogue of FO3 that i just started clicking through it all so i could get on with the game (not to mention the half-assed voice acting got old real quick). My earier post, which I edited, was actually an appeal that games move more towards art. However, I just figured to hell with it. Unlike Aram, I don't think that Fallout 3's writing is terrible. I don't think it's stellar and it's certainly a step down from some of the better games I've played. ...But horrible? *shrug* Depends on how much we want to make of writing in games in general. For my part, I don't think game writing has risen or fallen over the years. Sure, there are gems in the mix. Yeah, someone gets the setting well, or nails the dialogue, or even gets good voice actors, but at the end of the day, it's just a computer game. No, that's not some flip line I'm throwing out without any thought. At the end of the day, the state of publishing, combined with the nature of the consumer, and added to the developer, stops games well short of being art. Developers create games with shallow themes. Game writers are childishly simplistic, didactic, and morally intrusive. Consumers buy their games. Yes, there are movies that do things worse than games. Is the point, Aram, that games are the equal of movies because some movies suck even worse than some games? Don't make me laugh. I want a game that challenges me, and I don't mean with super uber combat. I want a game that forces me to challenge myself. Maybe forces me to reconsider my preconceived notions of the universe and my place in it. However, we're not getting that and maybe we never will. As a side note, Gromnir's point about art is that much of it was commissioned throughout history. It has, by and large, been a commercial endeavor. It has not always, but art has invariably been intertwined with commercial endeavors. To say that it is largely for it's own sake is simply wrongminded, whether we're talking about Dostoyevsky or Rembrandt. On the flip side, there are games that folks have created as a labor of love without seeking payment. Not so much today, but I played a lot of freeware/shareware when I was younger. Added to that is the fact that the biggest exception to art in which payment was exchanged for the piece is art that was inspired by religious fervor. Some of the most beautiful pieces of art have been inspired by world religions, from Christianity/Islam/Judaism to Buddhism. I'm sure that a game as inspired by a world religion would be better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aram Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 also, i don't care. why would i need you to read my posts? You don't. You don't need to read anyone's, and nobody needs to read yours. We're all here idly wasting time because it's entertaining. Angry, whiny posts like yours make it a tedious chore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 " I really liked it at first, but the immersion breaking was too much. " see previous posts by Gromnir (and developers) regarding the near meaninglessness o' "immersion." "Also the general question of why am I exploring? A lot of the places just ended up being similar hallways filled with similar things in similar buildings." not in morrowind? brief inventory o' bioware games: mdk2 were fantastic-- not so much writing focused, but gameplay were fantastic and had loads o' humor. bg... sucked. (am not gonna rehash old argument) bg2 were somewhere between good and very good... relative to crpgs as a whole. (already discussed in part) nwn and expansions were a mix o' good and terrible. nwn itself ain't near as bad as some suggest, but the clunky party system and the weak villains really killed enjoyability. side-quests were often excellent, with charwood being the best. expansions were a mixed bag... bioware sorta half-developed the first expansion and game felt half-baked. SoU started off ok, had a terrible middle, and ended rushed, but with some good content. Never did play HoU, so we cannot say... anything? tob were to short to sum up bg. some o' the wrting were pretty good, and we especially liked the additions Gaider eventually made to balthazaar via ascension, but the actual release o' tob were simply so-so for writing. were too fragmented 'tween the boss battles and the core story to be genuine compelling. the fire giant and swamp stuff were not bad, though coulda/shoulda' given more regarding Gorion during this stage. kotor were damned clever. do a game that complete parallels major plot points and characters from first 3 films? is only an obvious approach After kotor is released. in a post phantom menace world, is not so intuitive. jolee is an excellent character and bastilla coulda' been good. mix of good and bad. with all the terrible sw games, it were surprising that bioware were able to work within lucas restrictions and produce an enjoyable game. me? again, a mixed bag with some good and bad... 'least they finally manage to get some genuine element o' heroic sacrifice into a game. very intriguing universe, but with some wackiness and implausibility that made tough to swallow. generally interesting characters, but none that were genuine good or great. they has done considerable number o' games, so if you want a complete rundown you is gonna need to ask in another thread... and chances are we still not give a complete answer as you is asking for details on something like a half-dozen games. bio writing? generally better than fo 1 and fo2... and anything done by troika. played a bit o' vampire, so am not able to genuine judge complete game, but unless it got substantial better after the first hour o' soul-crushing buginess, we not feel as if we missed anything. some ok stuff were seen in vampire, but toee and arcanum were Horrible insofar as writing were concerned. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwinkieGorilla Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) As a side note, Gromnir's point about art is that much of it was commissioned throughout history. It has, by and large, been a commercial endeavor. It has not always, but art has invariably been intertwined with commercial endeavors. To say that it is largely for it's own sake is simply wrongminded, whether we're talking about Dostoyevsky or Rembrandt. On the flip side, there are games that folks have created as a labor of love without seeking payment. Not so much today, but I played a lot of freeware/shareware when I was younger. Added to that is the fact that the biggest exception to art in which payment was exchanged for the piece is art that was inspired by religious fervor. Some of the most beautiful pieces of art have been inspired by world religions, from Christianity/Islam/Judaism to Buddhism. I'm sure that a game as inspired by a world religion would be better? first, i'll address this topic. i'm familiar with the ins and outs of said subject as i've produced art and music which has been equally commissioned and uncommissioned. but for music, my first passion, no record label has ever asked me to compromise that which i've done and if they had i wouldn't be signed to that label. of course i eventually think about an audience in a "i wonder if people will dig this" sort of way but the music never come from that angle (unless, of course, it's been commissioned and then i'd say it came from a different place and was created for a much different reason). but all of this is a bit different from the point i was trying to make which is that when selling your product is the first priority, your art has already been compromised and is more a commodity than a work of art. as for videogames? hell, i don't really care about 'em. i rarely play any videogames. but Fallout always has and always will have a special place in my heart. it's the only game you'd ever see me get this defensive or passionate about. do i care if any of you care about any of this? hell no. doesn't mean i'm going to stop saying it though. sorry. @Aram: yet somehow you whining about me whining isn't even WORSE? right. Edited May 13, 2009 by TwinkieGorilla hopw roewur ne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristes Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I've virtually never been angry enough to put someone on ignore. I mean, sometimes I get irritated and whatnot, but I try not to have personal animosity over things. ...And hell, that's in the WoT board where folks have some crazy and destructive ideas. On the gaming side? Hell, we're all gamer geeks. How terrible can our posts be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwinkieGorilla Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I've virtually never been angry enough to put someone on ignore. I mean, sometimes I get irritated and whatnot, but I try not to have personal animosity over things. ...And hell, that's in the WoT board where folks have some crazy and destructive ideas. On the gaming side? Hell, we're all gamer geeks. How terrible can our posts be? i'm sorry, man. i just think the forum-LARPing is sorta sad. i'm neither willing to read it nor do i care to play along. hopw roewur ne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaesun Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Does anyone seriously have a worry over the writing in New Vegas??? Some of my Youtube Classic Roland MT-32 Video Game Music videos | My Music | My Photography Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristes Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Does anyone seriously have a worry over the writing in New Vegas??? Does anyone even talk about New Vegas in this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwinkieGorilla Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Does anyone even talk about New Vegas in this thread? what the hell could possibly be left to talk about regarding NV? we've discussed and got sidetracked on every single aspect of this topic and have had not one single bit of news since the game was announced. hopw roewur ne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Promethean Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) Gromnir, I'd suggest playing more of Vampire with the new patch. How far did you get in Santa Moncia? I also suggest playing Malk if you dont care for repeat playthroughs. Its too bad each clan couldnt get dialogue styled after them. Also Bastila? I thought her character ended up shallow and cliched. HK gave a pretty damning indictment of her (and Carth) character in II. I agree with Jolee. He is one of my favorite characters. I found HotU much better than NWN OC or the first expansion. Edited May 13, 2009 by Promethean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristes Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) ...And the mystery of your lifetime ban at Bethesda deepens. EDIT: Ah hell, missed it by THAT much. Anyhow, I agree with Promethean. Bloodlines is a lot of fun. I can't find my game disks, otherwise, I might play it again. Edited May 13, 2009 by Aristes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aram Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) Unlike Aram, I don't think that Fallout 3's writing is terrible. I don't think it's stellar and it's certainly a step down from some of the better games I've played. ...But horrible? I don't think Fallout 3's writing is terrible. Maybe a few choice instances, but that's to be expected. I just think it was a step down from the first games, which meant for disappointment because video game sequels are supposed to be progressive in more ways than just tech. Baldur's Gate II surpassed the first, for example, in almost every way. The original Fallout set a landmark in dialogue and decision making in dialogue--its sequel took that a bit further, but its second sequel took a step down rather than a step further as it should have. It didn't disregard it entirely--and it was definitely a step forward for Bethesda from Oblivion, but they didn't quite do the original justice. That's all I mean. Yes, there are movies that do things worse than games. Is the point, Aram, that games are the equal of movies because some movies suck even worse than some games? Don't make me laugh. What I meant to say is that because we have enough games that have managed a level of writing at least on par with a mostly decent movie, we know bad writing when we see it, even through the colorful smog of graphics and gameplay. We'll probably never see video game writing approach the level of a truly great, meaningful movie, but it's not wrong to at least expect the sort of attention to scriptwriting they put into a decent action movie. Edited May 13, 2009 by Aram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 ...And the mystery of your lifetime ban at Bethesda deepens. He's right though. The project is still pretty nebulous, so not much to talk about - other than what they should do with F:NV, but that's pretty irrelevant in the end result. Expect FO3 but in a different city, that's about all I figure. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killian Kalthorne Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Does anyone seriously have a worry over the writing in New Vegas??? Nope. Its Obsidian. Even their crappiest writing is better than Bethesda's best. "Your Job is not to die for your country, but set a man on fire, and take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristes Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Yeah, I agree as to the action movie thing, which is kind of how I view games these days. Which saves me from getting pissed off all the time about games falling short of my expectations. I'm serious, the best way thing you can do to enjoy a game is to temper your enthusiasm before hand. haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Promethean Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Yes, there are movies that do things worse than games. Is the point, Aram, that games are the equal of movies because some movies suck even worse than some games? Don't make me laugh. What I meant to say is that because we have enough games that have managed a level of writing at least on par with a mostly decent movie, we know bad writing when we see it, even through the colorful smog of graphics and gameplay. We'll probably never see video game writing approach the level of a truly great, meaningful movie, but it's not wrong to at least expect the sort of attention to scriptwriting they put into a decent action movie. Isnt that narrowminded? Like saying movie cant achieve as high as a great book. Things take time. Video games are still pretty new. I always thought direct comparisons between the different mediums was pointless, since they all have different ways of doing things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Rorie Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Keep it civil. Matthew Rorie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Does anyone seriously have a worry over the writing in New Vegas??? yeah. obsidan has done 1 quasi-sandbox game: soz. were the writing good? is new vegas gonna be sand box? if it ain't, then they gotta do something vast different than soz... and if they does more akin to kotor2, then they still end up with a complete crap ending. am kidding. even so, can you imagine a fo game that is organized likes kotor2.? there is tangential stuff in kotor2, but there is a single coherent critical path plot that dominates the game. Gromnir would be okie dokie with such a game, but try to do such a game with sand box and you got... problems. if was a huge development with 5 years and loads o' people working on the project, then yeah, we can see a game that successful merges requirements o' compelling critical path and sand box wherein the tangential side-quests is equal intriguing. keeps a relative small number o' key plot points, take focus off the protagonist, and develop those side-quests so that they is more than brief encounters; make them genuine mini-stories that can stand on their own. am worried 'bout nv writing in part because these guys is familliar with fallout and 'cause some o' them worked on van buren. is gonna be tough to be practical. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwinkieGorilla Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Nope. Its Obsidian. Even their crappiest writing is better than Bethesda's best. damn. twice in one day we agree? the wind has shifted. hopw roewur ne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aram Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) Does anyone seriously have a worry over the writing in New Vegas??? Not me. I'm brimming with hope. Particularly if they aren't crippled by Fallout 3's technical restrictions, and they don't repeat the idiosyncrasies of Fallout 2--I expect it will be fantastic. Edited May 13, 2009 by Aram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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