Obsidian making Fallout: New Vegas

[Killian Kalthorne]

Why? Arcanum's combat was terrible, the graphics was subpar, and the over all game play wasn't all that gripping. The story was interesting, but the faults of the game hampered the story telling. The game just wasn't fun to play and if the game isn't fun to play then you can have the best story in the world and it wouldn't matter because no one would want to play it. Fallout 3, despite its faults, is fun to play. Well, at least for me.

 

I rather have Obsidian make their Fallout be both fun to play and have a greate story.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Why? Arcanum's combat was terrible, the graphics was subpar, and the over all game play wasn't all that gripping. The story was interesting, but the faults of the game hampered the story telling. The game just wasn't fun to play and if the game isn't fun to play then you can have the best story in the world and it wouldn't matter because no one would want to play it. Fallout 3, despite its faults, is fun to play. Well, at least for me.

 

objectively, or your opinion? see how this works?

 

I rather have Obsidian make their Fallout be both fun to play and have a greate story.

 

well of course, man! who ISN'T thinking this?

[Gromnir]

Its a gameplay based franchise...

I disagree. It started out as a GURPS experiment that grew into the Fallout experience/setting. But I believe the Fallout setting grew bigger than that archaic game system.

 

Of course, there's no way of proving either for or against in this case. Funny though that I played Fallout despite its combat/gameplay system, while you seem to have played it because of its combat/gameplay system.

 

our recollection is that josh sawyer were pretty dismissive of the gurps & fallout connection. sure, he ain't a conclusive kinda authority, but he did suggest that those folks who wished to take credit from cain and give to GURPS were being ridiculous. seems that mkreku would have sawyer support on this issue.

 

mark the calender?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Enoch]

I played Fallout despite its combat/gameplay system, while you seem to have played it because of its combat/gameplay system.

This is probably the best post we're going to get with regard to explaining the two sides of this particular argument in one succinct line.

 

 

(FWIW, I'm in mkreku's camp. Gameplay in Fallout had its charms, but said charms got old pretty fast, often leaving frustration in their wake.)

[Gizmo]

Its a gameplay based franchise...

I disagree. It started out as a GURPS experiment that grew into the Fallout experience/setting. But I believe the Fallout setting grew bigger than that archaic game system.

 

Of course, there's no way of proving either for or against in this case. Funny though that I played Fallout despite its combat/gameplay system, while you seem to have played it because of its combat/gameplay system.

Each instance of the Fallout series [to date] has declined (Fallout 2 was bigger, but not better IMO), and Fallout Tactics was not even an RPG, FOBOS (by appearances only) seems to be some kind of arcade game RPG ~In the was that

was an "RPG"

 

Each game sliding away (Heh... like the blood of N

Edited May 8, 2009 by Gizmo

[Kefeinzel]

From what I can tell from being an observer for years, what the one guy calls the 'faction' of fallout fans had pretty consistent desires.

 

Most people wanted an isometric, turn based cRPG with tactical combat that used modern technology and improved on the original games good aspects rather than replacing them.

Good story, writing, and characters with plenty of the choice and consequence that made the original games great also a plus.

 

I'm not sure where the perceptions came from that people wanted a rehash of the old games originally came from, although it's probably linked to the incorrect assumption that turn based/iso is outmoded.

 

I'm not sure I see why any of the above listed desires are a bad thing or impossible today, so hopefully obsidian will "do what it does best", and restore some of these desires back to the forefront.

 

mkreku, could you really like take an adult education course and become literate, because I'm pretty sure my post above is referring to most people in the "diehard fallout fans" quote "faction" that another poster was referring to in a previous post.

 

Please don't attempt to use me as a springboard for your inaccurate, banal arguments please.

[mkreku]

mkreku, could you really like take an adult education course and become literate, because I'm pretty sure my post above is referring to most people in the "diehard fallout fans" quote "faction" that another poster was referring to in a previous post.

No, I'm pretty sure I'm considered "literate". And I'm not sure exactly how to "could you really like take" anything.

 

But I can clearly see now that I missed the point of your original post. I apologize for that.

 

Please don't attempt to use me as a springboard for your inaccurate, banal arguments please.

This, however.. Feel free to point me to my "inaccurate, banal arguments". Specify, unless you are merely trolling.

[Gromnir]

I played Fallout despite its combat/gameplay system, while you seem to have played it because of its combat/gameplay system.

This is probably the best post we're going to get with regard to explaining the two sides of this particular argument in one succinct line.

 

 

(FWIW, I'm in mkreku's camp. Gameplay in Fallout had its charms, but said charms got old pretty fast, often leaving frustration in their wake.)

 

the hardest thing 'bout discussing fallout at codex and nma: pointing out gameplay shortcomings. sure, you can gets some leeway if you criticize plot or character development, but suggest that fallout and special were a woefully unbalanced system and you is in for a long battle. point out that there were obvious more efficacious skills, abilities, weapons, perks and feats and you gets attacked like rangers at omaha beach.

 

Gromnir thinks special is a nifty system, but is flawed... also agree with fergie that the fallout tb combat could be soul numbing.

 

...

 

while toee were a wretched game on many levels, we thinks it actually did an admirable job in streamlining tb combat... even large numbers o' combatants didn't result in the kinda tedium that were common in fallout.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Tigranes]

suggest that fallout and special were a woefully unbalanced system and you is in for a long battle

 

Really? I've seen quite a few discussions about how FO's TB combat could be boring as hell, how it lacked the tactical complexity and sophistication to make it a truly great combat game, how the problems with exit grids and turn times in large battles hurt the gameplay, so on and so forth.

 

I'd have thought it was a widely accepted fact by now that while FO's combat could be darn fun at times, it was also quite very flawed.

[Aristes]

I guess my point regarding sales is that it's a factor no matter what you argue. You don't have to believe that sales equate to quality, but you're arguing a case for your vision of the game. Your argument simply must be economically feasible in order to carry the day.

 

The Fallout Faithful have caused a big stir for pretty much all of the Fallout titles over... what?... the past decade? Blindly pushing for what you want will simply not carry the day. Simply storming the barricades has only made for zero tolerance policies on the part of the license holder.

 

For that reason, I think that cronicler is probably the best spokesman for the Fallout Fans. He focuses less on what he hates and more on what he thinks could be improved. The biggest problem is that the Faithful have always been stronger on the attack. Gaining consensus on what they want instead, outside a few items, has always been the harder trick to turn.

 

Once again, as I've said many times, you should argue for what you want. You ought to make sure that your arguments are effective, though. If you completely alienate the folks making the game, they probably won't listen to you.

 

...And I don't think it's in OEI's best interest to foster Bethesda bashing, which is why the mods are a little heavier handed than usual in these threads.

 

Oh, I'm quite sure all of the folks posting here are literate. Otherwise, how exactly do they post?

[TwinkieGorilla]

I guess

 

yep. you sure do.

 

 

EDIT: look, this whole discussion is tired and it's been going on for years now. can we just freakin' move past it and talk about FO:NV? i'm sorry but i don't want to read any more dissertations on "Fallout fans" and what we supposedly want or don't want, what we've supposedly wanted or didn't want. it's been discussed long enough and i guarantee nobody's right nor will anybody ever be right. it's just the same damn "this is what you guys think" and "no this is what you guys think" add a little trite debate about sales, rinse and repeat.

 

srsly.

 

FO:NV anybody?

Edited May 8, 2009 by TwinkieGorilla

[Aristes]

Fair enough. What would you like to see in FO:NV?

 

For myself, I have things that are the highest priority:

 

Access to the greater basin area, including Henderson, Lake Mead, Valley of Fire, Mt. Charleston, Red Rock, and Boulder Dam.

A stronger, tighter story

More memorable NPCs

 

I have things that I'd really like to see:

Remote locations from Las Vegas, including Area 51 and Death Valley.

Better selection of weapons with a significantly reduced deterioration.

 

I have things that generally sound like a good idea:

Even more locations like Mt. Pass and Baker.

Retooling VATS to some degree

Better crafting

Some minor tweaks and improvements to the perks, stats, and skills.

 

There you go. Hardly even a full sentence in that whole mess. Maybe I'm not so literate after all.

 

EDIT: and even then I screwed up. had to change locations around a bit.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Aristes

[TwinkieGorilla]

interesting list. nothing i really disagree with, but my list is simpler (at least in theory). i know this comes as a shock to anybody who has lumped me in with some abstract idea of a "Fallout fan" in their mind...but truly...i consider myself easy to please.

 

1) S.P.E.C.I.A.L. implemented the way it was in the first two games.

 

2) better dialogue

a) which doesn't seemed forced (soooo much of the Bethesda dialogue made me groan, "oh god you guys. you're just trying too hard and it's painful to read."

b) which captures not only the wit but the spirit of the originals.

c) which has the complexity, breadth, humor and diversity of the branches we saw in the likes of even minor characters like Renesco.

 

3) meaningful consequences and rewards for my actions (re: back to the ideology of the originals which happens to be the antithesis to Bethesda's take on roleplaying which equates to "everybody wins!")

 

 

 

and for a bonus:

 

4) i hope Avellone becomes involved and we can retain some of what he and Sawyer mapped out for VB. i know MCA has it in him to create some deep and beautiful characters, i just hope he decides to not only become involved but to shine again.

[cronicler]

My main wish / hope is actually quite weird at this moment. I do hope Obsidian can rein in their enthusiasm to create a complex game at this moment. They only have 1 year development cycle for this game so I really hope they don't over achieve. I have seen that monster quest interrelation chart J.E.S. and his co-workers created for Torment. Every quest including doing laundry for an old witch were somehow linked to each other. While I don't doubt they can create something like this again, (Maybe they even have one on the ready, a what if project they did on their endless free time) but i do doubt they can implement it totally in 1 year

 

A Main Map of New Vegas, a structurally sound main trunk of quests that span this main map and some trips on the world map to satellite locations. After they flesh out the main part they should be going for the extra side stories. I know most of you (like me) don't really care for the DLC and it's quality but for once I would like to see a solid game that can accept nice side stories (something like GTA4 and it's DLC Lost and Dammed) instead of a shaky story with patches of DLC.

 

As Twink said earlier, A decent use of Special. Please check my post on page 54 for details.

 

Some way to clean up the VATS, and also a way to implement "Squad" orders gimmick from Brothers in Arms and ME.

 

Another Clean up, This time on the Perks and Traits part. I would like to see different backgrounds and personal traits you can choose at the beginning to shape your character instead of basic; Origin: Vault (+5 to science and repair, -5 to this etc) , Up to teenage year: Standard Modern Education (Bonuses to Science and Repair, Penalties to outdoorsman etc)

Edited May 8, 2009 by cronicler

[GreasyDogMeat]

I'd like a new quest list for the minor quests. In F3 these are kept under the 'Notes' section, but the minor quests can get lost in the pile of notes you accumulate over time. Things like gathering scrap metal, repairing the broken water lines etc.

[Gromnir]

suggestions:

 

1) retool special. it were broken in fo3 and it were just as broken in fo 1 and fo2.

 

players can max all but 2 skills by end of game? wacky unbalanced feats? how many fallout games has we seen and special ain't improved much. d&d has even gone through multiple revisions since late 90s.

 

2) abandon the notion that limited ammo result in balanced weapons.

 

is amazing how tenacious the developers hold onto this one. how did you use the lincoln repeater? ever really ran out of ammo or did yous simply use ol'painless for the ghouls and pathetic stuff and then whip out the lincoln for the giant rad scorpions and deathclaws.

 

3) vats?

 

less than 50% in small arms vats were more than enough to waste virtual enemy... seems wrong to Gromnir.

 

4) more Danny Kaye, Billie Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald... and if you can get some early Etta James.

 

5) hoover dam

 

is such a kewl (if over-used) las vegas location

 

just for starters

 

HA! Good Fun!

[cronicler]

GDM: Thanks for reminding that one. The Pipboy or more precisely stuffing everything into the pipboy interface did become sub-optimal after a while. Personally I thought the info panel on the lower left corner was your wrist screen and the pipboy had another "main" scren like a laptop thet you could use to check up things in detail (aka those quest/note/skill screens with vacuum tubes and such on the borders). In the new pipboy interface everyting feels too crammed and cursory...

Edited May 8, 2009 by cronicler

[Wombat]

Guess the thread is calmed down now.

 

A stronger, tighter story

More memorable NPCs

better dialogue

As for the list above, of course, I agree. Hopefully, more convincing NPC interactions which don't rely on Karma system. I don't think something like Jefferson's reputation system will be implemented, though. Ultimately, if the resulted dialogue/NPC interactions are enough convincing, I don't care what kind of system is beneath the skin.

 

Good balance and contrast between populated area and barren area to keep happy both fans of exploration and that of political intrigues. Some fast-travel tweaks I mentioned before may benefit both types of players but, then again, I leave the concrete implementation for the designers especially if they have better ideas.

 

As for the proper implementation of S.P.E.C.I.A.L., I'm not sure...if Obsidian manage to bring back the feel of the original, I'd be happy but, considering the period and the record of Obsidian, I think huge tweak on the base system will end up with bug fiesta...it would be like creating more problems in trying to fix old ones... So, personally, I'd like Obsidian to concentrate on making the content which they are good at rather than building new features into the system (and ending up with implementing many more problems). Cleaned up interfaces may be nice since they won't risk too much.

 

hoover dam

If there is Lake Mead, I guess it should be there if it is not destroyed by the vicious hands of Obsidian designers atom bombs.

 

PS If some people who have FO3 and bought Broken Steel, they may leave comments about the newly available game play but they are probably busy with playing at the moment...

Edited May 8, 2009 by Wombat

[Gromnir]

Guess the thread is calmed down now.

 

implementing many more problems). Cleaned up interfaces may be nice since they won't risk too much.

 

hoover dam

If there is Lake Mead, I guess it should be there if it is not destroyed by the vicious hands of Obsidian designers atom bombs.

 

 

 

am hoping they destroy... least partial. no lake mead and the remains o' the partial destroyed dam? got some nifty potential.

 

one thing to keep in mind is that if we wanna keep true to original fallouts, then the joinable npcs gotta stay crap. most memorable jnpc from fo were a dog? mad props to the interplay/black isle writers who handled dogmeat's dialogues.

 

am actual not so concerned 'bout the critical path story... am more concerned with individual characters and the tangential side-quests stories. keeps world big and open AND has a compelling critical path? sadly, we expect that obsidian, likes every other recent developer, will try to unravel the gordian knot. just sever the damn thing and be done with it.

 

am curious to see how obsidian addresses antagonistic demands regarding illusion o' freedom and a tight and compelling critical path storyline. don't expect both.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Azure79]

I'm all for tighter story and more interesting characters of course.

 

I also really want to see areas and dungeons that look unique and have a unique theme or quest going on, with many different enemy types inhabiting them who don't attack you on sight but parley with you and give you more options to do quests or whatnot.

 

I really enjoyed playing Fallout 3 the first time through, but after the same looking subway tunnel/factory/radio tower/office building I would literally get sleepy walking and shooting my way through them.

 

Even places that did have unique enemies, like the raider hideout or the comics building, didn't really help because it all came down to walking in and shooting everyone anyway. There were exceptions of course. I particularly liked the Antagonizer quest because you could interact with the NPCs and see why they ended up doing what they did. But I also noticed so many places where things could have gotten more interesting. Such as the factory where you run into ghoulified Chinese soldiers hiding out. It would have been interesting to see how the ended up there after the war and what their view on things were, but instead you just walked in, they attacked and you killed them. Not very interesting after countless battles that play out exactly the same way. I also ran into this bar like place in some random sewer with a Ghoul proprietor. The place seemed unique enough that I thought it might be a source of an interesting quest. Nope, the ghoul attacked me on sight, I killed him and that was that. I even tried reloading to see if I could get him to talk somehow and tell my PC what he was doing down there with a bar, but everytime he attacked, so I had to kill him.

 

So that's what I basically want. Less samey stuff but more involved, interesting areas where combat is not the only option.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Azure79

[Wombat]

am hoping they destroy... least partial. no lake mead and the remains o' the partial destroyed dam? got some nifty potential.

I guess it's most likely scenario.

 

one thing to keep in mind is that if we wanna keep true to original fallouts, then the joinable npcs gotta stay crap. most memorable jnpc from fo were a dog? mad props to the interplay/black isle writers who handled dogmeat's dialogues.

 

am actual not so concerned 'bout the critical path story... am more concerned with individual characters and the tangential side-quests stories. keeps world big and open AND has a compelling critical path? sadly, we expect that obsidian, likes every other recent developer, will try to unravel the gordian knot. just sever the damn thing and be done with it.

 

am curious to see how obsidian addresses antagonistic demands regarding illusion o' freedom and a tight and compelling critical path storyline. don't expect both.

Of course, by NPC, I didn't mean in-party NPC. I think original Fallout did this part well while giving the "illusion" of freedom and making the story/world feel consistent through the effects of the player's actions on the lives of NPCs*. For this purpose, convincing/believable NPCs are vital. Also, at least some of Obsidian designers have been thinking of this quite a long time, so, I guess they can make use of some of ideas on this project. I believe Jefferson's reputation system can be one of them. In fact, I have always thought the system would fit Fallout games rather than more narrative-heavy role-playing games such as Baldur's Gate and Planescape:Torment although, basically, the system can be applied to various types of role-playing games.

 

In a way, if Chris Avellone is going to join the development, I think it would be a nice chance to see how the chemistry between him and J.E.Sawyer work out, of which Feargus once mentioned an ideal combination with Swayer leading system development and Avellone leading content one.

 

*Ironically, Morrowind did it through synthesizing lore with in-game experiences (Yes, in this respect, Oblivion is quite a let-down to me).

[Nightshape]

http://www.metacritic.com/search/process?s...mp;x=29&y=6

 

Fallout average: 89

Fallout 2 average: 86

Fallout 3 average: 91 (PC version)

 

Now feel free to prove that Fallout 3 sold on hype and that you guys know better what tr00 quality is.

Easy... The quality of judgment has declined.

 

The quality of judgment has never existed.

[cronicler]

Enough with the baits and counter baits already. Please.

 

I wonder if the meele and the bow codes from Oblivion are still in the main-code. I would really like to see some of the "primitive" weapons like compound pulley bows in the game. (Well crossbows, harpoons and slingshots can be made from converted gun textures so they are not that hard I think.)

Also on this subject, I wonder if the codes for Spear's are still there too. It could be nice to see spears and pole weapons in the game.

Similarly (I know this is starting to sound too Medieval) there are modern day "shields" for uses in some situations. They might be nice for laughs here and there too

 

Unarmed: This one either needs to be brought up to standards of Riddick games, or be left alone entirely. An extremely well done unarmed could be immensly enjoyable but as Gromnir is found of pointing out its a small bit that needs a lot of work (ie. not really justifying the man-hours that need to be spent on it.)

 

Melee: Balancing melee when there are tons of insta-gib firearms is a bit too much work , too little gain proposition too. However I would love to see some silent takedowns and/or disabling maneuvers implemented into the game. Something like your usual Thief game play; come from behind and blakjack/backstab him down.

[jero cvmi]

I'd be happy if i just didn't have to craft a custom weapon in order to throw stuff.

 

At the point where i had the schematics for the weapon, it didn't make sense to collect ashtrays for ammo anymore; my character was already armed better. However it would have been a novelty at lower levels.

 

A throwing skill to determine damage and accuracy, maybe a modifier on certain items that are good for throwing: knives, spears, etc. would be cool, not really a necessity though.

 

melee / unarmed just needs called shots, i'd be extra happy with that.

[cronicler]

Well the crafting currently in the game does not really make sense tbh. It just seems to be there for a couple novelity items and to provide guys who choose big guns as tag a weapon in the beginning... I haven't seen any thing decent done with it. Still its presence in the codes at least gives me the hope that some decent things can be done with it. I mean how hard is it to stuff some pressured canisters in a bag and then use a grenade as a fuse?

 

Also there already is a throwing skill hidden in the game, B. choose to add it's effects under the explosives / traps tree. I can understand why they did it; Skill affects damage, Throwing affects grenade damage is silly. so it becomes explosives the gets the damage modifiers. Throwing skill and non explosive thrown objects were scrapped. Also the game didn't really focus on tactical combat so anything other than basic mines to craft booby traps were also scrapped.

 

Sure I can see how this and merging stealth/pickpocket/lockpick into 1 skill makes the game easier and faster but... I really don't agree to this much loss of details...

Edited May 8, 2009 by cronicler