Obsidian making Fallout: New Vegas

[Kjarista]

Fallout 3 failed at Choice with consequence, and that needs to be fixed in F:NV. If you are an evil enough bastard to blow up a town, no one but very evil people should have anything to do with you. You should have that in the back of your head when some non evil looking NPC comes to you with a quest.

 

agreed. but i don't want the game telling me what's good or evil. this is why the karma system is crap. if there are people out there who disapprove of my actions that's great. but how do they know? well, they heard about it. how? people talk. but say it's long distance? well, there are travelers and caravans, right? so you walk into a bar and somebody recognizes you from the word of mouth description. they say to you "hey, you blew up that town, right? i might have a job for you." or they say "hey, it's the bastard who blew up that town! get 'em!"

 

see where i'm going with this? the decision of "good" or "bad" or "neutral" is so juvenile it makes me want to vomit.

 

Well, yes, "good" et al is relative.

 

Looking at Fallout 3, there are exactly 2 Vault Dwellers running around...the PC and the father. Let's take that Megaton bomb quest for sake of example. I walk into town, ask the sheriff about the bomb. I go talik to Moira about it, and everyone in the bar sees me talking to Burke. I'm seen messing with the bomb itself. Megaton is not a closed place...people come and go. People gossup: "Hey, did you see that Vault Dweller??"...it dowsn't happend every day.

 

Then BOOM, Meagaton is flattened. Must have been taht vfault Dewller...no, not the older one. I heard he was in Rivit City at the time. Must have been the young one, the girl, and I ehard she was in Tenpenny towers...

 

 

People talk. Gossip doesn't need proof, and it travels as far and as fast as the quickest transport.

 

What would be really interesting is WRONG gossip. Imagine showing up somewhere and being accoused of something you didn't do:

 

"I heard she killed everyone in Big Town..."

"Well, I heard she saved Red..."

"Red is dead...her head blown off, and that Vault Dweller girl was seen around there the other day..."

"Better watch out then...those vault p[eople seem unstable..."

 

That kind of misinformation might just get you shot on sight at Rivit City, and it might be a quest in itself just to find out why.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Looking at Fallout 3, there are exactly 2 Vault Dwellers running around...the PC and the father. Let's take that Megaton bomb quest for sake of example. I walk into town, ask the sheriff about the bomb. I go talik to Moira about it, and everyone in the bar sees me talking to Burke. I'm seen messing with the bomb itself. Megaton is not a closed place...people come and go. People gossup: "Hey, did you see that Vault Dweller??"...it dowsn't happend every day.

 

Then BOOM, Meagaton is flattened. Must have been taht vfault Dewller...no, not the older one. I heard he was in Rivit City at the time. Must have been the young one, the girl, and I ehard she was in Tenpenny towers...

 

 

People talk. Gossip doesn't need proof, and it travels as far and as fast as the quickest transport.

 

exactly! this is a huge problem with FO3. no consequences, at least nothing very interesting or innovative. oh, crap. Moira's face now looks like a ghoul. but hey! you can still complete her quest! wheeee! go Bethesda! this is the problem of their "Oblivio(ous)ness".

 

What would be really interesting is WRONG gossip. Imagine showing up somewhere and being accoused of something you didn't do:

 

(snip)

 

That kind of misinformation might just get you shot on sight at Rivit City, and it might be a quest in itself just to find out why.

 

ahhh, very Kafkaesque. i like it!

[IguanaBob]

Why have the first one at all? It's too arbitrary and destroys the moral ambiguity of the setting.

 

Well to clarify a bit, it could measure the self-esteem/self-respect of your character, e.g I’ve made a great deed helping the town get rid of the local gang leader and all the town people praised me for doing so, but deep inside me I feel ashamed ’cause my motives were different of what people think.

I was paid from another gang leader to do this job so he can take advantage, but the others don’t know about this.

 

We aren’t talking in this case about a plain good or evil character but mostly for those who belong in the “gray” area and Fallout is full of “gray” areas.

As I said this could be a reflection of your inner self, an esoteric subject.

It’s a little complicated, as you have to take multiple instances of PC’s actions into consideration and I don’t know if it is feasible at all, but that’s how I perceive this.

 

Ausir you're right,the mere practical reason for implementing something like this in the game is non existent, but I think it helps to build a well round off character.

Edited April 25, 2009 by IguanaBob

[Kjarista]

exactly! this is a huge problem with FO3. no consequences, at least nothing very interesting or innovative. oh, crap. Moira's face now looks like a ghoul. but hey! you can still complete her quest! wheeee! go Bethesda! this is the problem of their "Oblivio(ous)ness".

Ya, and that could have been so easily fixed, but they went too far with the consolification.

 

You want to be evil and blow up Megaton...the most evil act in the game? Then live with being evil: No Moira quest, no bobblehead, no dealing with the traders, no help from BoS, etc.

 

All you really need there is a way to finish the main quest as an evil character...perhaps just bebopping in there with the enclave and firing up the purifier.

 

The problem with many modern games is that it's TOO easy to be evil.

Edited April 25, 2009 by Kjarista

[Magister Lajciak]

So is Obsidian the developer of this and Bethesda the publisher and licenser or are the two companies co-developers?

[Hell Kitty]

The original intent of the village example [regardless of the details] was that the player might feel they acted brashly [possibly feel regret]; and understand that they should decide with care who they trust.

 

The player is introduced to deceit in the very beginning of Fallout 3. Some of the first dialogue options you have include lies (options with the [Lie] tag), and we quickly learn that the Overseer cannot be trusted. Why would players then go out into the big bad dangerous wasteland trusting everyone they come across?

 

In any game I play, if I am able to communicate with an NPC, even one I'm on a quest to kill, then I will talk with them first. I've played enough games to know that if I just kill them I might be missing out. For example, maybe I can make them a counter offer.

 

Also, your example doesn't actually require clever AI. If the player has bad karma, then the quest-giver tells you the truth, "I want you to kill some people for me, you up for it?". If the player has good karma, the quest-giver lies, "Won't you please rescue my daughter from the horrible slavers?".

[Ausir]

As I mentioned, I'd like the black and white Karma replaced by a reputation system akin to this one:

 

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/images/newGui3.jpg

 

With several variables the NPCs can judge you on, but not "good" vs. "evil".

 

Well to clarify a bit, it could measure the self-esteem/self-respect of your character, e.g I’ve made a great deed helping the town get rid of the local gang leader and all the town people praised me for doing so, but deep inside me I feel ashamed ’cause my motives were different of what people think.

 

I think it's better to leave measuring his character's self-respect to the player. Otherwise, the game will always arbitrarily assume what the moral code of the PC is.

Edited April 25, 2009 by Ausir

[Gizmo]

The player is introduced to deceit in the very beginning of Fallout 3. Some of the first dialogue options you have include lies (options with the [Lie] tag), and we quickly learn that the Overseer cannot be trusted. Why would players then go out into the big bad dangerous wasteland trusting everyone they come across?

Why indeed. Planescape did this sort of thing long before Fallout 3, but the player only sees [Lie] for their own responses. I was speaking of being plausibly lied to by an NPC. (say like a kid running away from an attacker, and the attacker runs after him shouting "stop thief!" ~say the PC stops the kid and the kid gets caught because of him.)

 

**I'm not literally asking for any of these in the new game, I was just proposing that a slightly cleverer AI be considered.

 

Also, your example doesn't actually require clever AI. If the player has bad karma, then the quest-giver tells you the truth, "I want you to kill some people for me, you up for it?". If the player has good karma, the quest-giver lies, "Won't you please rescue my daughter from the horrible slavers?".

The example was not the request, the clever AI was. Edited April 25, 2009 by Gizmo

[Malcador]

Ya, and that could have been so easily fixed, but they went too far with the consolification.

 

You want to be evil and blow up Megaton...the most evil act in the game? Then live with being evil: No Moira quest, no bobblehead, no dealing with the traders, no help from BoS, etc.

 

All you really need there is a way to finish the main quest as an evil character...perhaps just bebopping in there with the enclave and firing up the purifier.

 

The problem with many modern games is that it's TOO easy to be evil.

 

I agree, although shame that Megaton's demise is the most evil act in the game - as you said it'd be neat to join up with the Enclave and get an ending where you purge the BoS and the undesirables from the DC area (that's pretty fiendish an ending, in my mind). But, I can guess why they wouldn't go for that, heh.

[TwinkieGorilla]

The problem with many modern games is that it's TOO easy to be evil.

 

which is why the alignment system is interesting. it's too easy to be "chaotic evil" but it's actually pretty difficult to be "lawful evil" on the other hand. it would be amazing if a more complex alignment system figured into the reactions of those around you. this could somehow be worked into the reputation system (maybe because of your reputation you get certain quests, rewards or punishments and as in-game rewards for staying true to your specific alignment you get bonuses. i dunno, just shooting from the hip here. it could get tricky and become too arbitrary like the karma system if it's handled lazily.)

 

So is Obsidian the developer of this and Bethesda the publisher and licenser

 

that is correct.

[Magister Lajciak]

So is Obsidian the developer of this and Bethesda the publisher and licenser

 

that is correct.

 

Thanks - I just wanted to be clear on that.

[Kjarista]

Ya, and that could have been so easily fixed, but they went too far with the consolification.

 

You want to be evil and blow up Megaton...the most evil act in the game? Then live with being evil: No Moira quest, no bobblehead, no dealing with the traders, no help from BoS, etc.

 

All you really need there is a way to finish the main quest as an evil character...perhaps just bebopping in there with the enclave and firing up the purifier.

 

The problem with many modern games is that it's TOO easy to be evil.

 

I agree, although shame that Megaton's demise is the most evil act in the game - as you said it'd be neat to join up with the Enclave and get an ending where you purge the BoS and the undesirables from the DC area (that's pretty fiendish an ending, in my mind). But, I can guess why they wouldn't go for that, heh.

 

Ya, I'd like to see a "slippery slope" descent into abject evil. If you decide to go down this path, you better be in it for the long haul, because you will have a very hard time changing it. No cheap devices to "repair" the consequences of your choices.

[Ausir]

which is why the alignment system is interesting.

 

I'd prefer a system like the upcoming AoD one, which doesn't measure how "good" or 'evil" you are, but measures your general reputation, reputation in major factions, as well as such traits as loyalty, word of honor, prestige, body count, diplomatic successes, etc.

Edited April 25, 2009 by Ausir

[TwinkieGorilla]

I'd prefer a system like the upcoming AoD one, which doesn't measure how "good" or 'evil" you are, but measures your general reputation, reputation in major factions, as well as such traits as loyalty, word of honor, prestige, body count, diplomatic successes, etc.

 

yeah, i guess that's similar to what i've been getting at for the past couple pages here. that sounds good. i really detest the idea of a game deciding moral principals for me.

[Ausir]

Of course, we don't know yet how well the AoD reputation system will be implemented, but it does sound good in principle.

[Tagaziel]

It seems I'm doomed to make the bottom of pages and get missed. Oh well.

 

One key thing I miss is "notoriety" or "recognizability", it's painfully obvious in Fallout 3, where everyone had permanent "Detect Alignment" enchantments and could recognize you on the spot, even though you are wearing a faceless power armour with no easily identifiable characteristics.

 

F:NV should include a robust system of recognizability, or at least one that will allow you to blend in and infiltrate. It's not impossible, the engine supports it, just look at this mod to see how it's done. Not to mention the engine supports recognizability, vide the Gray Fox Mask, which makes you become someone else entirely.

 

But that's half the system, as the actual rating system needs to be better. D&D's alignment system (Good/Evil/Neutral + Chaotic/Lawful/Neutral) is much more flexible and appropriate for Fallout than the binary Karma system, but would probably require recoding a fair bit.

 

So in the end, the system would check two things, first, if the PC is recognizable, second, what reaction should be taken by the NPC, based on the player's conduct.

 

PS: Plz bring Tell Me About back. That was one of the merits of the Morrowind dialogue system, you'd get distinctly different answers about the same subject, say, slavery, when talking to Telvanni, Hlaalu, abolitionists or Argonians.

[Gizmo]

This thread is diverse... too diverse.

 

~Way back somewhere I responded about the Heads in Fallout being incredible for their day, and how IMO Fallout 3' (for their day) are not ~but should be.

 

Before I saw anything concrete about Fallout 3 I had hoped they would choose a close format to the series, and I saw that if the games were the same ISO/3rd person style (but in 3d of course), that they could continue the behavior of the first two concerning the heads. (IE. to transition from high Iso to close up face to face dialogs). This I thought, would surely allow them to use much more detailed heads in the 3rd Fallout; but not have to deal with swapping out high and low models in real time in front of the player.

 

I really was thinking something along the lines of one head taxing the engine to its limits.

~Instead of the standard model head scaled up, rather a real endeavor (sort of like the F1 heads that took weeks to sculpt , digitize, and animate, and how they were a marked improvement from the standard Fallout 1 heads ).

I was thinking something like this

 

*Unfortunately I don't know if that's practical now, given the bent for FPP, and that you can walk up to an NPC and just speak...

Edited April 25, 2009 by Gizmo

[Aristes]

Is it possible to have a LEETLE leeway in the whole "all of FO:NV shall be contained herein? Is it possible to split off a couple of these ideas into separate threads? Especially since the ideas under discussion apply to all games anyhow.

[Morgoth]

Yeah I agree there should be several FNV threads, but I suspect the evil mods won't allow that.

[Slowtrain]

. Moira's face now looks like a ghoul. but hey! you can still complete her quest! wheeee! go Bethesda! this is the problem of their "Oblivio(ous)ness".

 

 

Really? Even if you blow up Megaton you can still complete Moira's quests? ANd still shop with her and stuff?

[Hell Kitty]

Planescape did this sort of thing long before Fallout 3, but the player only sees [Lie] for their own responses.

 

That's how F3 works, the [Lie] tag is applied to the players own dialogue options, that Planescape did it first is irrelevant. In one of the first (if not the first) dialogue options you have, Amata asks you if you were surprised regarding the birthday, and the player has the option to lie and claim they knew about it all along. If the player can lie to others, why wouldn't they assume that others can also lie to them?

 

I was speaking of being plausibly lied to an NPC.

 

That's easy. Being lied to in the game works just like in real life. The NPC tells the PC a lie, and unless the PC has a reason to believe the NPC is lying, then they can choose to take them at face value. When the PC arrives at the so called slaver compound and finds it to be an average town full of average people, only naive, lazy or stupid players will continue to believe the lie, everyone else will start to suspect that things might not be what they perhaps originally thought. If the townsfolk are immediately hostile and the PC kills them, they didn't die because the PC believed the lie, they died because the PC was defending themselves, and thus the player has no reason to feel bad about the situation.

 

say the PC stops the kid and the kid gets caught because of him.

 

Then what happens? The choice the player has to make in this situation is "do I want to get involved?", and by getting involved they are putting themselves in a position to discover the truth. This is a pretty common situation in RPGs.

 

The example was not the request, the clever AI was. :shrug:

 

I was merely pointing out that there is no clever AI involved in what you're asking for, it's really basic. If the game keeps track of player actions, either on a reputation screen the player can view, or completely behind the scenes, then quests can be offered or denied based on past actions. For example, an NPC might deny you a diplomatic mission as they don't believe you're up to the task based on your history of violence. But it's impossible for the AI to determine if the player can be lied to, because the game can't determine your reasons for choosing a quest.

[Ausir]

. Moira's face now looks like a ghoul. but hey! you can still complete her quest! wheeee! go Bethesda! this is the problem of their "Oblivio(ous)ness".

 

 

Really? Even if you blow up Megaton you can still complete Moira's quests? ANd still shop with her and stuff?

 

Yes, she just turns into a ghoul and moves into the Underworld.

[Slowtrain]

. Moira's face now looks like a ghoul. but hey! you can still complete her quest! wheeee! go Bethesda! this is the problem of their "Oblivio(ous)ness".

 

 

Really? Even if you blow up Megaton you can still complete Moira's quests? ANd still shop with her and stuff?

 

Yes, she just turns into a ghoul and moves into the Underworld.

 

 

How convenient.

 

If Simms get killed by Burke, his son will give you the reward for disarming the bomb instead. I'm glad he is doing that instead of vrying over his dead father gunned down in a bar.

 

Isn't it neat how Bethesda has all the angles covered?

Edited April 25, 2009 by CrashGirl

[Hell Kitty]

This thread is diverse... too diverse.

 

~Way back somewhere I responded about the Heads in Fallout being incredible for their day, and how IMO Fallout 3' (for their day) are not ~but should be.

 

Before I saw anything concrete about Fallout 3 I had hoped they would choose a close format to the series, and I saw that if the games were the same ISO/3rd person style (but in 3d of course), that they could continue the behavior of the first two concerning the heads. (IE. to transition from high Iso to close up face to face dialogs). This I thought, would surely allow them to use much more detailed heads in the 3rd Fallout; but not have to deal with swapping out high and low models in real time in front of the player.

 

I really was thinking something along the lines of one head taxing the engine to its limits.

~Instead of the standard model head scaled up, rather a real endeavor (sort of like the F1 heads that took weeks to sculpt , digitize, and animate, and how they were a marked improvement from the standard Fallout 1 heads ).

I was thinking something like this

 

*Unfortunately I don't know if that's practical now, given the bent for FPP, and that you can walk up to an NPC and just speak...

 

The issue here isn't a lack of detail. Take Rhedd's head for Morrowind as an example. They looked a hell of a lot better than the default heads, yet they had a lower poly count. There's no reason for a single head to push an engine to it's limits, you just need a good artist.

Edited April 25, 2009 by Hell Kitty

[Gizmo]

That's how F3 works, the [Lie] tag is applied to the players own dialogue options, that Planescape did it first is irrelevant. In one of the first (if not the first) dialogue options you have, Amata asks you if you were surprised regarding the birthday, and the player has the option to lie and claim they knew about it all along. If the player can lie to others, why wouldn't they assume that others can also lie to them?

Does it happen? (how common is it that NPC's lie to you ~Note: I have read that Bethesda had a running policy that NPC cannot lie... though this may have since changed).

 

If the townsfolk are immediately hostile and the PC kills them, they didn't die because the PC believed the lie, they died because the PC was defending themselves, and thus the player has no reason to feel bad about the situation.

That's the problem, The PC never has reason to feel bad about anything ~and no surprises. In the one case with Megaton, if you play a character that will jump through the hoops to blow up the town... Odds are you won't feel bad, and I doubt you can do it by carelessness (though I never tried to).

 

say the PC stops the kid and the kid gets caught because of him.

 

Then what happens? The choice the player has to make in this situation is "do I want to get involved?", and by getting involved they are putting themselves in a position to discover the truth. This is a pretty common situation in RPGs.

Does anything like it ever happen in Fallout 3?

 

The example was not the request, the clever AI was. :shrug:

I was merely pointing out that there is no clever AI involved in what you're asking for, it's really basic. If the game keeps track of player actions, either on a reputation screen the player can view, or completely behind the scenes, then quests can be offered or denied based on past actions. For example, an NPC might deny you a diplomatic mission as they don't believe you're up to the task based on your history of violence. But it's impossible for the AI to determine if the player can be lied to, because the game can't determine your reasons for choosing a quest.

That's no excuse to dismiss having one.

*Unless Fallout 3 doesn't warrant the need.

 

There's no reason for a single head to push an engine to it's limits, you just need a good artist.

An artist does what they can with what they have available... Give an artist the freedom to tax the engine with one model, and stand back in awe... Edited April 25, 2009 by Gizmo