Obsidian making Fallout: New Vegas

[TwinkieGorilla]

crashgirl, i totally agree.

 

 

also, a +1(billion) on the "their tech is crap" argument. yes, it is WELL known and observed that Bethie's got the hold on the whole world/environment design (even though their low-res fetish boggles minds) but their character design and animation is stuck somewhere in the mid-aughts. compare any of the animations from the CryEngine all the way back to Bioshocks' Havok/UnReal combo...i mean, it's sorta embarrassing watching Bethesda still working with what made Morrowind tick.

 

i mean...really. ka-dunk, ka-dunk go the characters of Bethie's world.

Edited April 20, 2009 by TwinkieGorilla

[mkreku]

Bethesda fall down in loads of other places and I'm specifically speaking about those things.

No, actually, you're not. You just blurt out that Bethesda's technology is terrible. But feel free to specify just what is so terrible about it, because as an end-user it seems pretty remarkable to me.

 

I am also pretty sure that the engine is not restricting the animators as badly as you all think:

 

 

If that's what one modder can do, I'm pretty certain that the team at Obsidian can do it too.

[Nightshape]

Bethesda fall down in loads of other places and I'm specifically speaking about those things.

No, actually, you're not. You just blurt out that Bethesda's technology is terrible. But feel free to specify just what is so terrible about it, because as an end-user it seems pretty remarkable to me.

 

I am also pretty sure that the engine is not restricting the animators as badly as you all think:

 

 

If that's what one modder can do, I'm pretty certain that the team at Obsidian can do it too.

 

Why sir, some amazing skinning. featured throughout the video. You're easily impressed! I'm not, I'm a critical sod. As an end user I think beths tech is pants, and I'm not alone in feeling that way.

 

Smoke and mirrors!

Edited April 21, 2009 by Nightshape

[player1]

Well, the real question is how much feedom is Obsidian going to have?

 

Though I feverntly hope otherwise, I don't believe Bethesda would allow them to drop VATS. Best we can probably hope for is more of a redesign to make it more challening and fun. I know Josh has thoughts about VATS and what would make it better.

 

 

I would at least hope from them to drop making every single critical hit in VATS look like "Bloody Mess" from original Fallout games, and make them be more realistic.

 

It just doesn't feel right to cut off the head with pistol hit. Kills immersion.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Smoke and mirrors!

 

Yep, I have to agree with you there.

[alanschu]

You said your post was regarding the nostalgia and rose colored glasses commentary.

 

and it was. my point is that the games are not held up in many fans' memories as great merely because of nostalgia. sure, a love for bits of the past is natural but people don't play them at the present moment and say "oh, well...i certainly remembered it being better than this." at least not the majority of fans i'm aware of. it has nothing to do with when they came out, or what else was out when they came out.

 

Just to clarify, when I say that someone is looking back on it with a nostalgic taint, I don't mean that they are going to be the person that goes back and plays it and says that it's not as good as they remember. The positive memories that you have with the game most certainly will affect subsequent plays through the game. It's impossible not to. You're going to approach the parts of the game knowing what's going to happen, with the eager anticipation of what's going to happen because you loved experiencing it in the past. Like the guy that watches a movie that he loves numerous times, and says the lines before the happen.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Just to clarify, when I say that someone is looking back on it with a nostalgic taint, I don't mean that they are going to be the person that goes back and plays it and says that it's not as good as they remember. The positive memories that you have with the game most certainly will affect subsequent plays through the game. It's impossible not to. You're going to approach the parts of the game knowing what's going to happen, with the eager anticipation of what's going to happen because you loved experiencing it in the past. Like the guy that watches a movie that he loves numerous times, and says the lines before the happen.

 

dude.

 

yes, i get what you're saying and i'm saying THAT AIN'T IT, MAN. there's much more to it than that. and the "much more" is bigger than what you described (which, btw, i'm fully aware of and do acknowledge).

[alanschu]

Just to clarify, when I say that someone is looking back on it with a nostalgic taint, I don't mean that they are going to be the person that goes back and plays it and says that it's not as good as they remember. The positive memories that you have with the game most certainly will affect subsequent plays through the game. It's impossible not to. You're going to approach the parts of the game knowing what's going to happen, with the eager anticipation of what's going to happen because you loved experiencing it in the past. Like the guy that watches a movie that he loves numerous times, and says the lines before the happen.

 

dude.

 

yes, i get what you're saying and i'm saying THAT AIN'T IT, MAN. there's much more to it than that. and the "much more" is bigger than what you described (which, btw, i'm fully aware of and do acknowledge).

 

 

Of course you want to think that there's so much more to it than that. You're so fond of the experience

 

 

Even Chris Avellone acknowledges that there are extra factors beyond the game's content itself that drove it to the "amazing" status (specifically that there was a huge drought of RPGs at the time).

 

 

Fallout 1 and 2 are two of my favourite RPGs of all time, eclipsed probably only by Ultima VII (another game that I suspect, if it were released today in it's current form, I probably wouldn't think as highly of). Both of those games are easily among my favourite games of all time. I do the same thing as you and still play through the games and still laugh and enjoy the same sequences that I've always enjoyed too.

 

 

It's human nature to take the experiences that we consider "the best" and place them on a pedestal. I do it all the time.

Edited April 21, 2009 by alanschu

[TwinkieGorilla]

ok, you're skipping. pick the needle up and ponder for a second and forget what Chris said in an interview some time or another. think about why certain things hold high places on totem poles of "goodness". Citizen Kane doesn't consistently make the "best films of all time" because people harken back to the first time they saw that movie when it came out, ffs. most of those people are no longer on this earth. it still remains on that list because of the type of film it is.

 

Fallout is the same. only difference is the medium.

[Pop]

I would disagree with you there. Institutions and cultures maintain sacred cows often without any active championing by anyone in particular. All you need is a person in a place of esteem telling others how important something is for long enough and soon enough it has its own momentum, that one person can die and it wouldn't matter. You're implicitly acknowledging this when you say Citizen Kane is on so many "best of" lists "because of the type of film it is". What sets Citizen Kane apart, exactly? A lot of people will say it's one of the best films ever made without ever having seen it, because it has the reputation of being one of the best films ever made. And it has that reputation because critics, in the AMA and other institutions (who may or may not have a vested interest in branding things American Classics) have endorsed it as such.

 

Bill Shakespeare is the best writer the English language has ever produced. People know this, but very few of them have read his work extensively. Why is that notion so widely held? Because we're taught it in school. Most children read his worst work, actually. (Romeo and Juliet) I could go on.

Edited April 21, 2009 by Pop

[TwinkieGorilla]

what exactly are you disagreeing with? that's sort of a cynical view though. are you saying "Citizen Kane" doesn't belong on that list? that all those directors and writers who it influenced aren't why it consistently makes that list? or are you saying Fallout suffers from this?

 

generally speaking...sometimes what you've stated is what occurs. but much of the time institutionalized standards of credibility and worth, like well...the Beatles, The Stones, The V.U. are there because of their influence and impact on culture or their form of media in general.

[Pop]

I'm saying it doesn't matter how good Citizen Kane is. Citizen Kane is in the Pantheon. "Best film of all time" is an inherent quality it has, not a status given to it by virtue of its other qualities. Once you put that idea in peoples' heads the onus is on naysayers to prove otherwise. That's not how analysis ought to work.

 

I mean have you read any Rolling Stone best of lists over the years? You'd think good music began in 1960 and ended in 1979. The institution of Rolling Stone is caught up in the idea that the era of psychedelic and classic rock was a Unique and Unparalleled Period of Time in History. Spin thinks the same of the Alternative craze of the 90s. What gets into someone's head that convinces them that Sgt. Peppers is the best album recorded anywhere anytime by anyone ever? I would argue that it's mainly being inundated by just how HOLY **** IT'S IMPORTANT Sgt. Peppers is. You could call that nostalgia, I would call it the natural inclination of institutions to create idols. Raise your hand if you've ever met someone who said Oblivion was one of the best games in years without being able to name any specific qualities it had that made it that way.

 

*hand*

 

Now ask yourself how such an idea became so prevalent. It's not simply that people played it and liked it.

 

(Abbey Road was better anyway)

Edited April 21, 2009 by Pop

[TwinkieGorilla]

ok, first off those Rolling Stone lists are made to sell product. they're also only advertising "best rock records" not "greatest music". secondly, there is a time and place for this kind of pissing contest...and this isn't it, friend. i've dedicated my entire life to touring, recording and performing...i "get" this debate, right? i do. it's just getting a bit esoteric for something like Fallout.

 

Fallout is a great feckin' game, it innovated and it captivated people...and it STILL does this, even to n00bs. it's not just a matter of remembering something which "seemed" brilliant for it's time, at that time.

 

right? this isn't really arguable.

[Pop]

ok, first off those Rolling Stone lists are made to sell product. they're also only advertising "best rock records" not "greatest music".

That might be true, but you can't honestly think people don't take it that way. Point is there are a lot of things that influence perception of a product or artwork. Actual quality is but one of those things.

 

For the record I think that Fallout is a great game objectively, and I don't think that it's institutionally promoted. It never sold enough to be in the Pantheon. Oblivion or Fallout 3, on the other hand...

Edited April 21, 2009 by Pop

[TwinkieGorilla]

ha! well, sure. but people are stupid.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Hey guys.

 

 

 

 

 

Don't ruin the moment.

 

 

Thanks.

[TwinkieGorilla]

I'M TRYING TO ILLUMINATE THE MOMENT GODDAMMITALL!!!

 

 

*bows head, moves to corner, obsesses all alone*

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

OPEN THE FORUMS GOGOGOGOGOGO

[Whipporwill]

I bought the Fallout two-pack in the post-Baldur's gate era for about ten dollars. Suffice it to say that although I don't regret the purchase, neither do I have any emotional attachment to them. I have never bothered to complete either game.

 

By today's standards, the gameplay is poorly balanced and far too reliant on trial-and-error. I particularly remember one NPC where, if you were overly short with her, would attack you. Once you damaged her, the ENTIRE CITY would turn instantly hostile. This inevitably meant a reload. People would throw a fit if a modern game tried this, and with good reason. It's neither challenging nor fun, and exists solely to frustrate the player.

 

Longtime fans don't step in the noob traps; they know where they are. And the noob traps didn't bother them when they were noobs, because noob traps were de rigeur in pre-millennial gaming. But a modern gamer picking up an old game like Fallout is going to find them particularly obnoxious precisely because modern games don't pull that crap.

[Pop]

It's a realistic sort of response, though. It's better than getting in a fight and everyone magically knowing you weren't at fault, or all NPCs cowing to your aggression and scorn.

[TwinkieGorilla]

@whipetc: speak for yourself. ever read this article? Fallout 180

 

or i could give personal anecdotes to the 20 year old at work who was more impressed with 1 & 2 than 3. or how about this post elsewhere just moments ago:

 

"im a newbie to fallout.

I beat Fallout3 and although the graphics are poor and isotopic view is annoying, i am currently enjoying Fallout 1 much more than I did 3"

Edited April 21, 2009 by TwinkieGorilla

[mkreku]

Why sir, some amazing skinning. featured throughout the video.

Wow. You're using a dancing mod animation made by an amateur that's over-stretching the models (thus creating gaps in the skeleton) as an example of why Bethesda's technology sucks. I'm actually not sure if you're kidding or not.

 

You must be one awesome "game developer" if that's not a joke.

 

And you still haven't defined why Bethesda's technology is so terrible.

[Deraldin]

It's a realistic sort of response, though. It's better than getting in a fight and everyone magically knowing you weren't at fault, or all NPCs cowing to your aggression and scorn.

IIRC that section in question was a gang headquarters. The city goes hostile because those aren't normal citizens, those are gang members that are attempting to eliminate a nuisance to the gang.

[Pop]

Rorie, tell us things.

[Pidesco]

All the devs hanging around without posting are unnerving.