Dragon Age Discussion

[Dakar]

I thought by now more people would have heard the saying "No idea is original" and have stopped obsessing about what Bioware stole this from or that from. Who cares.

[Rhomal]

> Actually you did quite the opposite.

 

In your opinion

 

> I mean what...3 titles? One of them you couldn't even be bothered to look up because it's too inconvenient for you? I guess you'd just rather other people validate your claims for you. Luckily for you Gorth was there.

 

I knew this was coming, If I named 4 titles someone would have wanted 5.. if I named 5, they would have wanted 10.. etc.. I was asked to prove my point with games, I did. End of story. Couldn't care less if it meets to your unreachable standards.

 

> And then you play the victim at the end of your post, following it up with commentary about the predictable kids?

 

Because some of the replies are so mature, right? Just making a obvious observation. Sorry if the pill is bitter. And I am far from the victim, I simply couldn't care less what some strangers, especially kids on daddys PC, think of me simply because they disagree with my view and can't express themselves otherwise. That was the point I was trying to make.

Edited February 14, 2009 by Rhomal

[Tigranes]

Yes, that's the only 6 origins MC.

 

I actually thought Dwarven Noble, City Elf and Mage can be quite interesting if the delivery is right. They promised lengthy introductory sequences, but I also want some level of plausible, believable buildup towards becoming a Grey Warden, and this in a way that doesn't make all Grey Wardens, in the end, same guys with same motivations. That has a lot more to do with how they designed the rest of the game rather than the origin bits though. As long as they did not use the much-publicised origins to funnell all the multiple choice on char dev. into the opening....

 

Anyway, yeah. we'll probably get some silly stuff like "dad talkin' to ya" (NWN2 OC), "start with someone you don't care dying" (BG1), etc, but that would be ok if we got to see some nice dwarven cities and whatnot and get a sensible buildup.

 

Now if Bioware would stop making these stupid websites that take three years to load.

[aries101]

Yes, we have the 6 origin stories we know of as of today - only. And I'm fine with that.

 

Have you considered that maybe, just maybe, there could be a story reason for there not being a human commoner origin story. It seems to me that the commoner in the human cities are the city elfs....

 

And while the city elf origin may take some inspiration from Braveheart, it is known as being inspired by the opera Lucia di Lammermoor by Donizetti. You know the old story of wife getting married to a bride she doesn't love --- probably being forced by another (human) male to do this - then wife goes crazy and stabs human male or her husband --- then she sings ---- ok, maybe, not in the Bioware game, but in the opera, she does...

Edited February 14, 2009 by aries101

[Azure79]

Are the genders set with the origin too? Looking at the screenshots, it doesn't seem to be the case, but I could be wrong.

[aries101]

Are the genders set with the origin too? Looking at the screenshots, it doesn't seem to be the case, but I could be wrong.

 

No they aren't. You can play as either a man or a woman in any of the orgins; stories will then maybe be slightly different.

[Volourn]

"I actually think that the Elves as underdogs and racial fear with ghettos shares something with Sapfkowski's Witcher world, where xenophobia runs rampant and other fantasy races are as opressed as they get. So its nothing new in that regard."

 

Meh. Bah to TW. D&D did this before it. Heckj, I'm sure there are fantasy works other than D&D or TW to do this stuff. Having demihuman races be 'ghetooized' or 'oppresed' is not. Heck, the Forgotten Realms itself does it. *shrug*

[Killian Kalthorne]

Human dominance in a fantasy CRPG is pretty much the mainstream. Now if Bioware wanted to do something a little risque they would have had elves or dwarves be the dominant race and humans living in the ghettoes and such.

[Niten_Ryu]

And while the city elf origin may take some inspiration from Braveheart, it is known as being inspired by the opera Lucia di Lammermoor by Donizetti. You know the old story of wife getting married to a bride she doesn't love --- probably being forced by another (human) male to do this - then wife goes crazy and stabs human male or her husband --- then she sings ---- ok, maybe, not in the Bioware game, but in the opera, she does...

 

That's not the idea of Prima Nocta. It's to allow local rulers to have sex with bride before the husband. After that the young couple is "free". Of course the humilation and the fact that first born child might be from a different father make sure that there's plenty of hatred towards local lords and laws.

 

It's disputed if there ever was an actual written law about this in medieval times but it's known to happen since the written history.

[Musopticon?]

"I actually think that the Elves as underdogs and racial fear with ghettos shares something with Sapfkowski's Witcher world, where xenophobia runs rampant and other fantasy races are as opressed as they get. So its nothing new in that regard."

 

Meh. Bah to TW. D&D did this before it. Heckj, I'm sure there are fantasy works other than D&D or TW to do this stuff. Having demihuman races be 'ghetooized' or 'oppresed' is not. Heck, the Forgotten Realms itself does it. *shrug*

[Maria Caliban]

I thought by now more people would have heard the saying "No idea is original" and have stopped obsessing about what Bioware stole this from or that from. Who cares.

 

No idea is original, but originality is as much about execution as it is 'ideas.'

 

In the dwarf commoner origin, you live underground in a slum, and are part of a caste based culture that considers its underclass so worthless that it tattoos their faces so everyone knows when they

Edited February 15, 2009 by Maria Caliban

[Gromnir]

It's not the lack of the 'Human Commoner' origin that bothers me, it's the comparative lack of choice. That is to say I'm forced to choose one of six backgrounds that pretty much define my character for me, and then whatever happens I become a Grey Warden so I'm funnelled into two significant character development boxes by the all-seeing eye, Dave Gaider. It's typical Bioware spoon-feeding.

 

Hopefully you'll be able to dump the origin story baggage fairly quickly and move on to do your own thing.

 

Elves as the 'underdogs' might be a new one, but the archetypal Legolas ranger is still there. To be fair, knife-wielding Bunny Boiler elf chick looks a bit more original (except for the aforementioned Braveheart rip-off).

 

Do Bioware think that their player's minds will, literally, melt if there wasn't an elven archer or a surly dwarf warrior in their game?

 

Cheers

MC

 

as much as gamers talk 'bout choice and creativity, the vast majority of us is pretty damned predictable. those nwn pw is a great place to be seeing what kinda characters people play when left up to their own devices. is less than 10 basic character concepts that is repeated ad nauseum by +80% of players. perhaps bioware is spoon-feeding, but their menu were created with genuine forethought. you, the Average Gamer (not mc specific) is unlikely to ever play a character type other than those provided by bio.

 

instead o' giving you one exceedingly vague bhaalspawn, they gives you a handful o' more specific concepts capable o' more focused development.

 

personally Gromnir thinks the experiment is doomed to fail, for a variety o' reasons. even so, the fact that they ain't giving you genuine unique choices is not a flaw or a mistake. is the smart thing to do... and it not prevent creativity of story as a whole neither.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Rhomal]

personally Gromnir thinks the experiment is doomed to fail, for a variety o' reasons.

 

You piqued my curiosity, what are they?

 

Not that I am agreeing or disagreeing just wondering your thoughts.

[Tigranes]

True enough Gromnir, but isn't that (the lack of good creativity from the masses) the reason we want the pros to come up with unique and interesting stuff?

[Volourn]

No such thing as 'unique'. Interesting is a whole 'nother story, though.

[newc0253]

is less than 10 basic character concepts that is repeated ad nauseum by +80% of players.

wait, are you saying 'parents killed by orcs, fueled by burning desire for vengeance' ain't original???

 

oh well, fortunately i still have 'good drow outcast, hated by those he has sworn to protect' to fall back on...

 

personally Gromnir thinks the experiment is doomed to fail, for a variety o' reasons.

experiment? i think Temple of Elemental Evil proved origin stories could work successfully...

Edited February 16, 2009 by newc0253

[Meshugger]

No such thing as 'unique'. Interesting is a whole 'nother story, though.

 

Your very genetical sequence in your chromosomes is pretty unique

[Gromnir]

is less than 10 basic character concepts that is repeated ad nauseum by +80% of players.

wait, are you saying 'parents killed by orcs, fueled by burning desire for vengeance' ain't original???

 

oh well, fortunately i still have 'good drow outcast, hated by those he has sworn to protect' to fall back on...

 

personally Gromnir thinks the experiment is doomed to fail, for a variety o' reasons.

experiment? i think Temple of Elemental Evil proved origin stories could work successfully...

 

is sarcasm, right? toee origins suggest that such stuff is utterly pointless. regardless of origin chosen, 99.9% of game is same for all players, regardless of origin choice.

 

to address an earlier Q directed to Gromnir, da will do different. am betting that regardless of origins, all players will get same basic plot points, but each origin character type will gets some minor deviations in dialogue opportunities. story won't be genuine changed by your origin choice. furthermore, while the orphan-seeking-vengeance origin is different than the other origins offered, it is still gonna have to be close to Bhaalspawn general... 'cause it gotta work for the multitude that wanna play that particular origin and 'cause da will be a rpg that at least pays lip service to the notion o' choice.

 

blunt mode: bioware approach is foolish and ultimate doomed. in an rpg players will demand at least the illusion o' choice and freedom. bioware writers cannot make player's character definite w/o killing an integral aspect o' what makes crpgs attractive to players. at same time, is near impossible to write a compelling story 'bout a vague and ambiguous character that coulds be goodly or evil and sarcastic or serious or... whatever.

 

is an idea that somebody came up with at bio boards a longish time ago, and Gromnir is admitted envious that we not come up with it first. 'stead o' giving origins to player, allow player actions in game to decide eventual villain. a villain can be definite 'cause is written by writers w/o need to make rp viable. start off game with some generic adventure plot and then 2/3 through game you actually gets a 2 or 3 way bifurcation in story. real choice. real change. real reason to replay game other than to see some minor dialogue changes and a couple o' different quests.

 

prediction: da origins, will be a disappointment. da origins won't be as utterly pointless as toee origins, but you is still gonna be "spoon fed" and "funneled" down a single uniform story path wherein you origin choices and differences is no more than minor alterations in flavor.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Slowtrain]

I don't understand why deveopers would choose to waste time and resources putting in origin stories that don't really add much to the game.

 

Wouldn't that time be better spent creating new areas or increasing the complexity of the plot or the depth of the npcs or even just fine-tuning combat and adding options so it is more enjoyable?

[Gromnir]

True enough Gromnir, but isn't that (the lack of good creativity from the masses) the reason we want the pros to come up with unique and interesting stuff?

 

at same time, is an rpg story we is talking 'bout, no? balance player choices and wants with needs of making story compelling.

 

is ironic that if you give players everything they want, they will hate you for it... 'cause is nothing genuine "interesting or unique" if you simply give players what they ask for.

 

and keep in mind that even though the orphan-seeking-vengeance shtick is hardly new, bioware ain't precluded from implementing in a "unique and interesting" way... can still be creative.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Kelverin]

is ironic that if you give players everything they want, they will hate you for it... 'cause is nothing genuine "interesting or unique" if you simply give players what they ask for.

Something I can agree with, I believe Stan the Man said it best "Never give the fans what they think they want"

 

A problem with today's entertainment not just in video games, too many fans becoming pro's

[Maria Caliban]

I don't understand why deveopers would choose to waste time and resources putting in origin stories that don't really add much to the game.

 

Well, according to the BioDevs, the reason they've spent the time and resources they have on the origins is that Thedas is a new setting, and each origin offers a unique introduction to the world and a different perspective on the setting.

 

For instance, if you play as a human noble, you might meet another lord who helps you fight the blight and lends you a place to stay when you

Edited February 16, 2009 by Maria Caliban

[Slowtrain]

Unless the Origin variations open very different avenues of the game, it seems a better investment of time is just to make the core of the game, which every gamer will experience, better for all gamers.

[newc0253]

experiment? i think Temple of Elemental Evil proved origin stories could work successfully...

is sarcasm, right?

how could you tell?

 

to address an earlier Q directed to Gromnir, da will do different. am betting that regardless of origins, all players will get same basic plot points, but each origin character type will gets some minor deviations in dialogue opportunities. story won't be genuine changed by your origin choice.

this i agree with. origin stories look interesting and possibly fun but i think Bio is already overselling them: DA will likely have the same storyline bottlenecks as most other 'story-driven' CRPGs. origin stories will at best disguise this a little. at worst, the bottlenecks will show how thin the veneer really is.

Edited February 16, 2009 by newc0253

[Maria Caliban]

Unless the Origin variations open very different avenues of the game, it seems a better investment of time is just to make the core of the game, which every gamer will experience, better for all gamers.

 

There is no way to make something better for all gamers.