Spore is out, and cracked, on the internets.

[Spider]

I don't know for sure if I'm going to like a new pair of pants unless I try it out in many different circumstances but that doesn't give me a right to steal them.

 

But if I buy a pair of pants only to find they are really uncomfortable when sitting down, I can always just return them. Give me a 100% no questions asked return policy on games and your analogy will hold up.

 

Edit: As far as creating a demo. Who cares if you give away too much? I want to know if the game is fun, so let me play the first 30 minutes or so of it. That should be enough to let a player know if the game is worth spending money on.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Spider

[Moatilliatta]

30 minutes isn't enough to people who use the demo excuse as games can vary a lot throughout the playtime.

 

Edit: Also the developers or the publishers will care a about giving away too much as it will mean that some people will only play the demo.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Moatilliatta

[Nightshape]

You cant beat the hackers, its just the way it it. The way EA and other publishers try to deal with this is proof that they dont have a clue about how piracy works.

 

 

The only way you can keep a game from getting pirated today is to only release it for the PS3, for which there is no commonly used working hack yet. Yet, if you would do that, your sales would plummit because 1) the PS3 has a smaller userbase than PC or 360 2) ps3 games are extremely expensive and most people cant afford to buy more than one PS3 game every other month or so, so the competition would be murderous 3) SOny are very picky about who gets to make games for their console 4) ...I have to go now

 

The Dev kit is also HUGE! And Expensive. It's larger than the desktops of old, and it has beepy buttons, and looks like some retarded 8 track player...

[Hurlshort]

I don't know for sure if I'm going to like a new pair of pants unless I try it out in many different circumstances but that doesn't give me a right to steal them.

 

But if I buy a pair of pants only to find they are really uncomfortable when sitting down, I can always just return them. Give me a 100% no questions asked return policy on games and your analogy will hold up.

 

Edit: As far as creating a demo. Who cares if you give away too much? I want to know if the game is fun, so let me play the first 30 minutes or so of it. That should be enough to let a player know if the game is worth spending money on.

 

Believe it or not, that policy did exist for many years. The problem with your argument is that you can't take the pants home and put them in a fancy pants burning machine that will creating exact copies. You can do that with software.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

...you can't take the pants home and put them in a fancy pants burning machine that will creating exact copies.

 

Humm... You're right; whenever I try putting my pants in a woodstove they disappear and do not produce anything except little bits of burnt fluff.

[Killian Kalthorne]

No, that's you wanting something for free. It's a lame justification for pirating. A bunch of people spent years of their lives creating the game and you are going to steal it because you are "frugal".

 

No, it is not for "free." If I do not like the game I uninstall and delete it. If I do like the game I buy it.

[Hurlshort]

No, that's you wanting something for free. It's a lame justification for pirating. A bunch of people spent years of their lives creating the game and you are going to steal it because you are "frugal".

 

No, it is not for "free." If I do not like the game I uninstall and delete it. If I do like the game I buy it.

 

The bolded part is where you stealing, just to clarify. Just because you destroy something after you steal it does not make it right. It's like robbing a bank, burning the money, and then going in and telling them "It's cool, I'm totally going to repay you."

[mkreku]

The bolded part is where you stealing, just to clarify. Just because you destroy something after you steal it does not make it right. It's like robbing a bank, burning the money, and then going in and telling them "It's cool, I'm totally going to repay you."

So who exactly loses his install discs every time a pirate downloads a game? After all, you're comparing it to someone taking someone else's possessions and destroying them. Please tell.

 

Whoever compared buying a game to buying a pair of pants.. What can I say. Do you often go into a store, buy the coolest looking pants you see, pay for them and walk home to try them out only to find out they were made for Andre the Giant? In that case, someone needs to inform you about dressing rooms (ie. demos).

 

This discussion needs to gain a few levels.

[Tigranes]

Yay for starting the great big game of incorrect analogies!

[Monte Carlo]

No, that's you wanting something for free. It's a lame justification for pirating. A bunch of people spent years of their lives creating the game and you are going to steal it because you are "frugal".

 

No, it is not for "free." If I do not like the game I uninstall and delete it. If I do like the game I buy it.

 

Priceless. It wouldn't stand up in court, and it doesn't stand up here. Theft is theft is theft. I know that the rise of the internet and file-sharing has been used by many to try to redefine property rights. However, they've all failed. Intellectual property is as tangible as physical property. You can steal it. OK, catching you might be tougher, but it doesn't change the simple fact that piracy is theft.

 

Cheers

MC

[neckthrough]

No, that's you wanting something for free. It's a lame justification for pirating. A bunch of people spent years of their lives creating the game and you are going to steal it because you are "frugal".

 

No, it is not for "free." If I do not like the game I uninstall and delete it. If I do like the game I buy it.

 

Priceless. It wouldn't stand up in court, and it doesn't stand up here. Theft is theft is theft. I know that the rise of the internet and file-sharing has been used by many to try to redefine property rights. However, they've all failed. Intellectual property is as tangible as physical property. You can steal it. OK, catching you might be tougher, but it doesn't change the simple fact that piracy is theft.

 

Cheers

MC

You cannot equate intellectual property violation to traditional theft. You don't even have to make a legal or moral argument here, it's very very simple logic. Traditional theft has 2 simple, direct effects: (a) the owner of the property loses access to it, and (b) the thief gains access to it. IP violation has one direct effect: the violator gains access to the property. There is no immediate, straightforward impact on the owner. Of course, the owner could argue that they are losing out on a potential "sale of a licence", but said "sale" and the associated "loss" to the owner is a complex function of the market, the terms and conditions of the license, the IP laws in effect, etc.

 

Obviously this stems from the fact that material property and intellectual property are fundamentally different -- IP can be transferred non-destructively. Which is why most societies have completely different sets of laws governing them. Which is exactly why material theft is a criminal offense and IP violation is a civil offense in most legal systems. Trying to apply behaviors, laws and ethics related to material property on intellectual property is ridiculous.

 

Personally, I do not condone either theft or IP violation. I do not buy the "try before you buy" argument either -- it might seem morally sound to some, but a breach of license is a breach of license. And personally, I am also very annoyed that I as a customer have to deal with the excesses of draconian copy-protection systems. However, there's no way I can get myself to categorize an IP violator as a thief; ethically, legally or logically.

[Nick_i_am]

While I don't have a problem with the 'I want to actually try a demo that doesn't suck, so i'll DL a full version and give it a proper go' philosophy (which is what I did for World in Conflict and Hearts of Iron 2, both of which I love and now own retail versions of, and both of which had demos not representative of the full game), the issue comes from the 'well, it's a fun game, but not worth paying for so i'll keep playing but won't actually buy it' crap, which i've also done.

 

The original intention CAN be morally excused, even if it's a grey area (after all, the publisher DOES profit from it), the 'ooops' result can't, and since doing the former probably leads to the latter more so than not the whole exercise is easily open to critisism. More so since people will simply use it as an excuse to be a plain dirty pirate.

 

The real problem is that we can argue all day about this irrelivent subset of grey-area piracy, but at the same time I buy most of my games second hand. Sure i'm handing over money and the store loves me for it, but the end result to the publisher is the same, which, in theory, makes me just as bad.

 

This is a whole seperate argument, but one that I feel is a lot more relevent than the 'but I only pirate to try' crap that we've seen so many times before.

[Tigranes]

I think the most compelling reason commonly cited is to check that the game actually runs well on your computer. Some games are so buggy, and there are so many things about even well-maintained and above-spec PCs that can screw it up.

 

Anyway, firstly, theft is theft. Not much room to wiggle there. But don't stop there. Ideas of 'theft', just like those of 'intellectual property', are manmade concepts developed through a combination of social expectation and legal action. You can sit on top of traditional, outdated copyright laws all day and cry theft all day long, but if at some point in time the social understanding of theft and IP diverges radically from those laws, then ultimately the law becomes the one that's wrong. I don't think we're there yet, not by a long shot, and without a proper economic and moral system in place it's a good thing we're not - because lots (not all) of piracy, right now, does hurt honest, hard-working people in the industry.

 

Finally, I complete my defences with the caveat that I hate DRM and passed on Mass Effect.

[Killian Kalthorne]

That is why I am leaning more and more towards the console gaming over PC. XBox 360 actually has demos that one can download and play. You can get the feel of the game through the demo and get a feel of the publishers' style as well. Not every game has a demo of course but the more there are available the better. There are very few game companies I would buy blindly from, secure enough in their quality of work without the need of a demo or trying it out so I rely on trying games out and demos so that I can make a informed purchase.

 

I am not going to spend $50 to $60 on a game from a developer/publisher I don't know or trust their quality til I try it out, kick the tires, and taken a test drive.

[Moatilliatta]

The real problem is that we can argue all day about this irrelivent subset of grey-area piracy, but at the same time I buy most of my games second hand. Sure i'm handing over money and the store loves me for it, but the end result to the publisher is the same, which, in theory, makes me just as bad.

Theft isn't so much about who gets money but more about getting access to something that you haven't been given access to.

 

@Mkreku

I didn't argue in favour of piracy. Also I do believe the analogy holds as the pirates argument is that they need to try it out more than the demo (dressing rooms) allow and it is certainly true that the demos (dressing rooms) don't allow a full test because there are factors that usually doesn't get taken into account (how does the fabric react to rain for example), but that never excuses stealing and piracy is stealing because the only one that is allowed to give you a licence to the game is the store or the publisher or someone relinquishing their own licence.

 

@Killian Kalthorne

Which PC games don't have demos?

[Killian Kalthorne]

@Killian Kalthorne

Which PC games don't have demos?

 

The one game I am iffy on that doesn't have a demo, at least I haven't heard of it being done, is Fallout 3. I like Fallout 1 and 2, but from all the videos, while they look good, shows a wildly different game than Fallout 1 and 2. I would like to get my hands on a demo of that game prior of me spending money on it.

[Moatilliatta]

Try out an Elder Scrolls game.

[Killian Kalthorne]

Try out an Elder Scrolls game.

 

Funny guy.

[Hurlshort]

The bolded part is where you stealing, just to clarify. Just because you destroy something after you steal it does not make it right. It's like robbing a bank, burning the money, and then going in and telling them "It's cool, I'm totally going to repay you."

So who exactly loses his install discs every time a pirate downloads a game? After all, you're comparing it to someone taking someone else's possessions and destroying them. Please tell.

 

 

Actually robbing a bank doesn't actually take money from the bank customers. The bank has insurance, and it's the insurance that covers the theft. If we are talking $50, then that would barely register with these big insurance companies. So figuring out who loses their money when you rob a bank isn't all that easy. The insurance company is paid by the banks, and the banks make the payments based on fees and interest payments.

 

On the other hand, a group of programmers and artists spent years of work creating the IP. Does Killian think that they will accept his argument that "hey, I took advantage of your hard work, but I plan on paying for it if it is good."

[Deraldin]

@Killian Kalthorne

Which PC games don't have demos?

 

Just about any console port.

[Hurlshort]

I don't buy the whole "need a demo" argument either. There are dozens of reviews and previews for games nowadays. The internet means there really doesn't need to be any uninformed purchases. And I know folks get all cranky about media bias and a lousy scoring system, but if you have an ounce of reading comprehension it's not difficult to pull the facts about a game out of an article.

[Pidesco]

@Killian Kalthorne

Which PC games don't have demos?

 

Just about any console port.

 

DMC4, GRID, CoD4, Lego Whatever, Tomb Raider.

[Moatilliatta]

Are these sites lying then?

COD4 demo.

DMC4 demo.

Is this the correct grid?

Lego star wars demo.

Tomb Raider Anniverary.

[Pidesco]

Are these sites lying then?

COD4 demo.

DMC4 demo.

Is this the correct grid?

Lego star wars demo.

Tomb Raider Anniverary.

 

Huh, that was my point....

[Killian Kalthorne]

I don't buy the whole "need a demo" argument either. There are dozens of reviews and previews for games nowadays. The internet means there really doesn't need to be any uninformed purchases. And I know folks get all cranky about media bias and a lousy scoring system, but if you have an ounce of reading comprehension it's not difficult to pull the facts about a game out of an article.

 

Sorry, but all those gaming sites are pretty much worthless. My taste in games are my own and the only way I know for any level of certainty if I am going to like a game is to play a demo first.