The quality of combat in Bloodlines and other games

[Dark_Raven]

Someone is on crack. Bloodlines has crappy combat? You have a gun, you aim and fire. You have a melee weapon, you slice and dice or blungeon them to death. What is so hard about that?

 

DA will probably follow ME and Jade combat wise.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Someone is on crack. Bloodlines has crappy combat?

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

hhhhhh.

[Dark_Raven]

Someone is on crack. Bloodlines has crappy combat?

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

hhhhhh.

Yeah that's what I thought.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Yeah that's what I thought.

Bloodlines probably had the worst-feeling combat of any game I've played in recent memory. Shooting mechanics that demand that the player precision-aim but giving virtually no positive feedback for that action unless the character is a skilled marksman, and melee combat that feels like spastic flailing. If you think Bloodlines combat was "fine", I'd like to see you place it on a scale with combat from other games.

 

It's one thing to hold an opinion that differs from what's commonly held, but I hope you're not trying to act like you're surprised/haven't heard of Bloodlines' combat criticisms. Saying, "You have a gun, point it, shoot. Swing melee weapon, what's so hard," could apply just as easily to Jurassic Park: Trespasser, which probably has the worst... everything of any game ever.

[Nick_i_am]

What do you mean 'probably'.

 

DEPLOY THE ARM!

[Llyranor]

I'd agree with JE if I hadn't played Oblivion recently.

 

Mass Effect has pretty mediocre shooting mechanics, but they're still light-years beyond Bloodlines.

 

Alpha Protocol and Aliens: The Cooking RPG better have awesome shooting mechanics, regardless of RPG elements.

[Pop]

"You have a gun, point it, shoot. Swing melee weapon, what's so hard," could apply just as easily to Jurassic Park: Trespasser, which probably has the worst... everything of any game ever.

Man, blast from the past. I remember when that was like the Crysis of its day. I pushed my rig so that it could... very... slowly... render... the modular trailer... falling on... the T-Rex. And it had physics! First game physics I ever saw.

 

And what's not to love about magic health tit tats? So you risk death to look down at your health bar. Whatever. It's on your tit! Wowee Zowee!

Edited August 28, 2008 by Pop

[J.E. Sawyer]

I think Bloodlines' combat is a lot worse than Oblivion's, personally.

[Pop]

Morrowind's up there, though. At least in Bloodlines your melee attacks always hit if you were within range. The only auto hit in Morrowind was magic, if I remember correctly.

[Llyranor]

You're right, Pop. Forgive me.

 

Morrowind's combat was even more atrocious than Oblivion's.

[Volourn]

"Bloodlines has crappy combat? Try saying that while playing NWN2, KOTOR2, Mass Effect or Jade Empire."

 

BL is a cool game; but it has some of the worst and most boring combat ever. KOTOR series (both games as is BL) are super easy but they at least look much cooler.

 

 

"DA will probably follow ME and Jade combat wise."

 

Nope. 'Caused while both ahve stat based combat, player skill plays a huge aprt too hence why they are Action RPG. BL has a lot more in common combat wise to JE and ME thoguh its combat is 1 billion times worse.

 

 

 

"Bloodlines has crappy combat? You have a gun, you aim and fire. You have a melee weapon, you slice and dice or blungeon them to death. What is so hard about that?"

 

Nobody said BL combat was hard... well.. other than hades. They said it was crap, and they are right.

[newc0253]

I think Bloodlines' combat is a lot worse than Oblivion's, personally.

Hmm, I don't remember Bloodline's combat being that bad, which isn't to say that it was great. But it certainly didn't stand out as bad in the way that Oblivion's goofy click-and-swing style of combat did, perhaps because not many folk played Bloodlines as Strondar the Destroyer or whatever.

 

In contradistinction, TOEE had fantastic combat. It was just the rest of the game that blew like my ass.

Edited August 28, 2008 by newc0253

[Volourn]

TOEE had a great combat SYSTEM; but the combat itself was horrid.

[Xard]

TOEE had a great combat SYSTEM; but the combat itself was horrid.

 

 

this

 

 

Arcanum on the other hand has worst combat I've encountered in RPG's. Utterly abhorrent.

 

Bloodlines was crap too

 

edit:

 

@Xard and somewhat Pidesco

TOEE and bloodlines. What? Bloodlines has crappy combat? Try saying that while playing NWN2, KOTOR2, Mass Effect or Jade Empire.

 

 

All those have better combat than Troika games.

Edited August 28, 2008 by Xard

[Gromnir]

I think Bloodlines' combat is a lot worse than Oblivion's, personally.

 

degrees of terrible? oblvion's combat were pretty damned bad.... and mostly mindless. no real tactical considerations. there were a vast disparity 'tween bow and melee users in terms o' complexity and reward. point-and-click swing sword at crab thingie a thousand times and you is become a heroic sword user. learn to target and shoot bow properly probably is gonna take more than all the arrows you gathered in the starting dungeon... and is initially pretty expensive to buy more arrows. oblivion magic were... dunno. collected a bunch o' those orb thingies from a bunch o' gates that seemed to have only 3 genuine variations... and enemies were either tough or weak and either ranged or melee... or both. no real specific tactics for dealing with.

 

as for bloodlines... 'couldn't tell you 'bout the combat. arcanum bored us to tears. toee were so buggy that in spite of fact that we got to elemental nodes we couldn't finish game. why on earth would Gromnir give more money to troika based on previous experience? that being said, if bloodlines combat is worse than oblivion's it has gotta be 'cause bloodlines combat were epic bad... 'cause oblivion were genuine terrible.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wrath of Dagon]

JE combat was really good for an RPG. It combined player skill, tactics, and character stats in a meaningful way, while still being accessible. You could almost play the game just for the combat, which you can't say about most RPG's.

[Xard]

JE combat was really good for an RPG. It combined player skill, tactics, and character stats in a meaningful way, while still being accessible. You could almost play the game just for the combat, which you can't say about most RPG's.

 

Have you ever played proper games of that type such as Ninja Gaiden, DMC or somethng a lot less extreme like, well, heck nearly any good hack&slash game in the marker or fightin game such as Tekken or DoA?

[SteveThaiBinh]

JE combat was really good for an RPG.

Bouncy bouncy bouncy ---> Jade Golem ---> Thwack!

 

Worked for me.

[Dark_Raven]

I think JE is just mad at Troika because they put in BIS Sucks in Bloodlines.

 

Ok lets get nit picky at combat eh? Fallout series. Target shot to the head and especially to the eyes should be instant death, which they are not. If you didn't score a critical it only knocked a few hit points off them. Kotor series, blaster fire at some one who isn't wearing armor should either cripple the target or outright kill them depending on where they were hit. Same goes with lightsabers. Hell lightsabers can cut thru most armor. Enemy AI in most games is not tactical or logical.

 

Don't get me started on party AI. Icewind Dale had the worse party AI in any game I played. They usually just stood around to "think" before they responded while hordes of the enemy are attacking them and before you know it a few of the weaker party members are dead.

[Gromnir]

Ok lets get nit picky at combat eh? Fallout series. Target shot to the head and especially to the eyes should be instant death, which they are not. If you didn't score a critical it only knocked a few hit points off them. Kotor series, blaster fire at some one who isn't wearing armor should either cripple the target or outright kill them depending on where they were hit. Same goes with lightsabers. Hell lightsabers can cut thru most armor.

 

 

am not sure that "plausible" and "realistic" is ever genuine factors in discussing whether or not crpg combats is goods. does game involve player and reward him for efforts? perhaps if is too unrealistic, then combat has a tendency to prevent player involvement... but otherwise. Gromnir hated kotor combat, but not 'cause o' implausibility.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Bloodlines probably had the worst-feeling combat of any game I've played in recent memory. Shooting mechanics that demand that the player precision-aim but giving virtually no positive feedback for that action unless the character is a skilled marksman, and melee combat that feels like spastic flailing.

 

Did we play the same game? I thought combat was well done in Bloodlines, and both of the things you cited go away if you put points into the relevant combat stats.

[Wrath of Dagon]

JE combat was really good for an RPG. It combined player skill, tactics, and character stats in a meaningful way, while still being accessible. You could almost play the game just for the combat, which you can't say about most RPG's.

 

Have you ever played proper games of that type such as Ninja Gaiden, DMC or somethng a lot less extreme like, well, heck nearly any good hack&slash game in the marker or fightin game such as Tekken or DoA?

I said for an RPG. I'm not very good at real fighting games, and I hate button mashing hack'n'slash because it's so boring. Obviously if they made JE like Ninja Gaiden, 90% of RPG players would never get through it.

[Xard]

That doesn't make combat system good. JE's system is horribly flawed by being repetitive, having stupid AI and having overpowered win buttons (Jade Golem for starters destroys everything). It is not good combat system although it was good attempt.

 

Sawyer often criticises this thing that people forgive crappy combat because "it's RPG and RPG's have crappy combat!"

[Musopticon?]

This isn't the first time I've heard someone call DMC and Gaiden button-mashing, but it's still funny.

 

If JE's combat had had even a teensy bit of the intricacy of Ninja Gaiden Black's any single combat encounter, like having to use more than two moves to win for instance, I might have finished the game.

 

The only thing JE had over e.g KotOR's combat was the inclusion of dodging. It's still the least involved of all combat systems in Aurora-based rpgs.

[Wrath of Dagon]

This isn't the first time I've heard someone call DMC and Gaiden button-mashing, but it's still funny.

You didn't read my post very closely.

If JE's combat had had even a teensy bit of the intricacy of Ninja Gaiden Black's any single combat encounter, like having to use more than two moves to win for instance, I might have finished the game.

Most RPG players don't want to memorize combos and moves, let alone practice them, not to mention that most of us aren't very coordinated. To add a deep fighting system to an RPG would be a disaster.

 

I didn't notice JE AI being particular stupid, some of them were quite brutal, like the horse demons. To me the combat wasn't repetitive at all, because the situation changed and many enemies required the use of different tactics. Jade Golem was powerful but slow, and used up your chi, so I didn't feel it was overpowered, but if it was, just don't use it.