Neverwinter Nights 2: Storm of Zehir Discussion

[RangerSG]

I don't understand the whole "make the spells like PnP" either.

 

I DO think however, that where a spell is supposed to be essentially instantaneous, and the spell-casting animation/vocalization sequence of the game screws up the sequence so bad that the caster is mobbed by enemies before the spell is cast, that there is essentially something wrong with the casting system.

 

To whit: If a spell is instantaneous, or even has a casting time of less than 3; turn off the bloody animation so it fires in the correct amount of time...PLEASE. This is especially the case with spells like Magic Missile, which are essentially useless in NWN2 because they take so long to fire and reach the target that the enemy is already on top of you.

[Xard]

"He was able to escape from there"

 

Yet, TNO pesumably was unable to. *puke*

 

That mercenary "signed" with Tanar'ri though

 

Then again I take effective artistic liberties (PST) over "canon"

[Tale]

This reminds me

 

Absolutely worst decision concerning 4E was removing of Blood Wars

I haven't heard that it's been "removed." Just that it's not important anymore. Really, the only reason the Blood War even existed was because the designers were straining for a way to establish the Devils and Demons as seperate forces.

 

But now they've better established that distinction. The Devils are angelic traitors trapped in their dominion. The Demons are corrupted primordials and elementals (who were already pretty bad to begin with). And the concession to just two non-material planes means their positions in the cosmos seem less arbitrary but opposed, instead of just being the "law aligned plane, lol" and "chaos aligned plane." Which both sit right next the good, evil, Jim, astral, shadow, earth, water, wind, fire, and heart (by your powers combined) planes.

 

They'll surely go to war at some points or another. They just need to have a reason for it, now.

 

 

Though I do kind of miss Tanar'ri and Baatezu.

Edited July 24, 2008 by Tale

[newc0253]

But now they've better established that distinction. The Devils are angelic traitors trapped in their dominion. The Demons are corrupted primordials and elementals (who were already pretty bad to begin with). And the concession to just two non-material planes means their positions in the cosmos seem less arbitrary but opposed, instead of just being the "law aligned plane, lol" and "chaos aligned plane." Which both sit right next the good, evil, Jim, astral, shadow, earth, water, wind, fire, and heart (by your powers combined) planes.

the old D&D planes were hardly models of coherence and the old D&D alignment system only made it one hundred times sillier.

 

but i never had any problem figuring out the distinction between demons and devils: chaotic free-wheeling winner-takes-all evil versus hierarchical, rule-following well-organised-in-a-death-camp-kind-of-way evil.

 

of course, like anything based on D&D alignment, it doesn't bear too much thinking about but i always thought the Nine Hells vs the Abyss was a cool concept and the new 4e cosmology seems even sillier and more arbitrary than ever (and this was building on a cosmology that was already silly and arbitrary).

 

speaking of silly and arbitrary, what has happened to alignment in 4e?

[Tale]

but i never had any problem figuring out the distinction between demons and devils: chaotic free-wheeling winner-takes-all evil versus hierarchical, rule-following well-organised-in-a-death-camp-kind-of-way evil.

But then Graz'zt shows up.

 

speaking of silly and arbitrary, what has happened to alignment in 4e?

Seems like they combined Neutral Good and Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil, and got rid of the whole "balance" nonsense from neutrality. Then they took it a bit further and decided that none of this should have any mechanical relevance.

 

Basically, it looks like they let the extremes keep their own special clubs, while everyone else just went good/evil/doesn'tcare.

Edited July 24, 2008 by Tale

[Gromnir]

speaking of silly and arbitrary, what has happened to alignment in 4e?

 

is almost fixed... but is possibly even more silly and arbitrary.

 

alignment as a game mechanic has been marginalized. however, the alignments is even more baffling 'cause o' need to embrace previous d&d edition nomenclature.

 

lawful good

good

chaotic evil

evil

unaligned

 

from what little we has seen of the 4e rules, there is far less o' the spell and powers related to alignments. detections of _______ and protections from ________, etc has been largely exorcised from 4e. nevertheless, d&d nerds seems unable to complete abandon basic alignment labels. the above 5 categories is the new alignments for 4e. why? dunno.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

The old D&D alignment system was absolutely fine. It could have sued twinking; but this new disgusting creature is abhorent beyong belief.

[Morgoth]

I never cared about alignments in D&D, what are they good for anyway?

[Zero]

I never cared about alignments in D&D, what are they good for anyway?

 

Stirring up petty arguments over semantics that lead nowhere

[RangerSG]

If a game is going to have alignments, it should make them so they actually try to encompass the various plausible worldviews. 4e's 'attempt' at alignments once again shows a shoddy implementation based on a dubious attempt at simplifying things that should not be simplified. But then, 4e hardly can be called a RPG.

[themadhatter114]

What are alignments good for, anyway? Anyone serious about role-playing can create various factions that oppose each other for various reasons without focusing too much on alignment. Some people just want to kill bad guys. I think removing it from game mechanics is a good move.

[newc0253]

lawful good

good

chaotic evil

evil

unaligned

zounds!

 

D&D alignment was always illogical, but at least it was symmetrical.

 

this lopsided version seems like a cry for help, like the folk in charge know the whole system doesn't work but couldn't bring themselves to scrap it altogether, so they came up with this nutty halfway house so obviously flawed that even small children can see it don't stand up.

 

on the plus side, at least they've finally eliminated years of useless arguments about 'true neutral=balance' and how chaotic neutral people should act (are they like crazy? or just deliberately random?), etc.

Edited July 25, 2008 by newc0253

[Magister Lajciak]

D&D alignment was always illogical, but at least it was symmetrical.

 

this lopsided version seems like a cry for help, like the folk in charge know the whole system doesn't work but couldn't bring themselves to scrap it altogether, so they came up with this nutty halfway house so obviously flawed that even small children can see it don't stand up.

 

I agree completely. The 3.X edition D&D alignment system was not perfect, but the 4e alignment system is much less coherent and logical still.

[Magister Lajciak]

Note to the above post: ... not that 4e has been designed with much emphasis on logic. The emphasis in 4e is on easy playability with logic taking a back seat.

[Tale]

lawful good

good

chaotic evil

evil

unaligned

zounds!

 

D&D alignment was always illogical, but at least it was symmetrical.

It is symmetrical.

 

Lawful Good (Buzzkills) - Good (Hippies) - Evil (Goths) - Chaotic Evil (Bat**** Death Metal Rockers)

Unaligned (everyone else)

[newc0253]

so does that mean that devils are just the vanilla kind of evil but demons are the chaotic extra-crazy all-flavours-at-once kind of evil?

[Tale]

so does that mean that devils are just the vanilla kind of evil but demons are the chaotic extra-crazy all-flavours-at-once kind of evil?

Indeed. Devils got the shaft in that regard.

[Gromnir]

lawful good

good

chaotic evil

evil

unaligned

zounds!

 

D&D alignment was always illogical, but at least it was symmetrical.

 

 

actually, is symmetrical if you use the REAL names for 4e alignments. please recall that 4e is for the new generation o' gamer.

 

 

good... to the extreme!

 

good

 

unaligned

 

evil

 

evil... to the extreme!

 

see? is perfect symmetry.

 

most changes to 4e is actually pretty reasonable, but keeping alignment, 'specially in the current form, is just plain silly.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

"most changes to 4e is actually pretty reasonable"

 

No.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

"most changes to 4e is actually pretty reasonable"

 

No.

 

Nice response, witty intellengent and really addressing issues and getting your point across... *ahem*

[Gromnir]

"most changes to 4e is actually pretty reasonable"

 

No.

 

Nice response, witty intellengent and really addressing issues and getting your point across... *ahem*

 

actually, this were one of vol's better posts. no "r00fles" or "lulz" and Gromnir were able to decipher vol intent. were the vol response insightful? nope. even so, we thinks that if vol keeps his posts to single word responses, the entrie obsidian board community would benefit... so try not to discourage the little guy.

 

btw, am not a fan of all 4e changes, but in light of espoused goals, the changes made make sense.

 

oh, and to keep on-topic...

 

get rid of yuan-ti and replace with sleestak... 'cause retro is trendy again.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

"most changes to 4e is actually pretty reasonable"

 

No.

 

Nice response, witty intellengent and really addressing issues and getting your point across... *ahem*

 

actually, this were one of vol's better posts. no "r00fles" or "lulz" and Gromnir were able to decipher vol intent. were the vol response insightful? nope. even so, we thinks that if vol keeps his posts to single word responses, the entrie obsidian board community would benefit... so try not to discourage the little guy.

 

btw, am not a fan of all 4e changes, but in light of espoused goals, the changes made make sense.

 

oh, and to keep on-topic...

 

get rid of yuan-ti and replace with sleestak... 'cause retro is trendy again.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I disagree, I reckon that the whole of obsidian forums benefits from Volo's inane response, he provides lessons in idiotic ranting to us all and thus makes a grand addition to the humble forum, I find him entertaining, but I'm a mite be sick, I'd find a suffering animal dying a slow death entertaining.

 

As for 4e, it's just a ruleset, it may not be to peoples liking, infact some of it may even seem retarded and illogical, but the truth of the matter is the 4e will be enforced in games as a requirement from WotC, its just how these things work.

 

Now that said it probably also makes sense to go with it from obsidian's point of view, it helps with marketing jargon, heck, PoR anyone, touting its first 3e rules credentials must have helped sales.

 

p.s. I like cheese.

[aries101]

It is a good thing I think that Gygaxx isn't alive to see this happening to his invention...

 

I don't mind there being a Spell Plague, could be interesting to see how the inhabitants of Faerun deals with this sort of thing.

I do mind, though, that the Plauge will not affect the Sword Coast in any way, shape or form. What did the people there do? Did they put up some magical kind of barrier??

 

I don't like the thing about turning monsters etc. into someone from either Hell or Heaven. It means that Faerun loses a lot of its charm if we don't get to see any Batezu or Tanar'ri ? anymore. It just flattens the world...I find...

[Volourn]

Spell plague itself is fine.

 

The death of Helm, and it was handled is lame. The reshaping of the land except the SC area around BG is silly.

 

The lame removal of gnomes (i don't even like gnomes myself) as a playable race yet an addition of 2 new races INCLUDING ANOTHER ELVEN STYLE ONE - is rather pointless.

 

The fact that spells and magic have been altered to a point of ridiculous that they're baisclaly nothing more than mere special powers that ALL classes get. The fact, pretty much every class can heal by attacking. The fact that there are just a handful of skills now menaing there is even less ways to make your character different than others. The retarded alignment thing. You have 3 logical choices: Keep as is as it has worked for decades, IMPROVE IT, or remove it all together. The current method pretty much please nobody.

 

The list can go on as the nonsense won't stop.

 

Don't get me wrong, 4E will likely be an okay fun time; but it is no doubt weaker than earlier versions, and definitely loses quite a bit of the D&D falovor that makes it D&D.

 

 

P.S. My no was fine as is because Grom's argument wa snothing mnore than 'most 4E changes were reasonable'. Can't argue much when you get nothing to really discuss...

Edited July 25, 2008 by Volourn

[Dark_Raven]

4E is a piece of ****.

 

Spell plague itself is fine.

Lamest thing ever to happen to the Forgotten Realms.

 

The death of Helm, and it was handled is lame. The reshaping of the land except the SC area around BG is silly.

 

The lame removal of gnomes (i don't even like gnomes myself) as a playable race yet an addition of 2 new races INCLUDING ANOTHER ELVEN STYLE ONE - is rather pointless.

 

More lameness from 4E among many more things. Good going WotC for taking a **** on the creators of this setting and rules of long ago. Too much to ask to make your own goddamned setting?

 

Hopefully one of the NWN2 expansions use this lame **** from 4E.