The trouble with games today

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Computer role-playing games are more or less dead, I too never finished NWN2 and found NWN pointless. Toolsets? Pah. I pay developers to make games - I don't have the time myself.

 

I disagree on both the pointlessness of the games mentioned and the importance of the toolset. Without a toolset The Elder Scrolls would have been nothing in my eyes, nor would have either of the Neverwinter Nights games attained a place of honor on my drive. In fact, I have had more fun modding and using mods than I could have ever could have had without the toolset - strange, maybe, but I do love mods and their availability automatically makes a game look a little-bit better. This may be because modders do not have the same restraints developers do, and thus can target a very small market without the fear of loosing money.

[Guard Dog]

Total War games (all of them) make up the majority of my gaming now. But I do want to give Age of Empires and EU a look. RTSs have bucked the RPG trend and have been getting better. The TW series has taken a few setbacks in terms of the AI (too many zots used on graphics) but I follow the TW board pretty regularly and CA gets it. Empires will have a much improved AI. Or so they say. Plus I think Monte Carlo had another good point of the IE games feeling more like games and less like a bad cartoon.

 

And I'm with Crashgirl, a double shot of "something else" for me too. I think Dragon Age is going to have what we are all looking for though. Just reading what little they let dribble out on their boards the three writers (Gaider, Kirby and Lee) have put a lot of effort into fleshing out the games characters. Or at least I hope I'm getting that vibe.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Yeah, DA sounds like it is going to be good - better come with a toolset though.

[Slowtrain]

Computer role-playing games are more or less dead, I too never finished NWN2 and found NWN pointless. Toolsets? Pah. I pay developers to make games - I don't have the time myself.

 

I disagree on both the pointlessness of the games mentioned and the importance of the toolset. Without a toolset The Elder Scrolls would have been nothing in my eyes, nor would have either of the Neverwinter Nights games attained a place of honor on my drive. In fact, I have had more fun modding and using mods than I could have ever could have had without the toolset - strange, maybe, but I do love mods and their availability automatically makes a game look a little-bit better. This may be because modders do not have the same restraints developers do, and thus can target a very small market without the fear of loosing money.

 

 

I agree with where MC is coming from though. Developers are paid to develop finished quality products. However, I also agree that MW and especially Oblivion would have been close to unplayable without the awesome fan community that fixed so many bad design decisions with the toolset. And they did it so fast too. I remember it seemed like mods were up to slow down the leveling speeds so you could actually use your major skills within hours of the game's release. That was pretty awesome

[Moatilliatta]

If DA comes with a toolset then it will most likely be very limited, I still want it as well though.

 

Because Crysis' main selling point is its amazing visuals -something that will quickly become dated-, while the other games make use of something else.

Crysis' problem is that it makes use of amazing visuals that are interesting only because they are advanced and as such not the amazing visuals themselves. Games that inspire awe in the gamer because of graphics (STALKER, DoW1, CoH are all on my favorite recent games list) inspire awe because they use graphics in interesting and non-generic ways i.e. not rockslides.

People often talk about graphics being a problem, but they aren't. The problem is developers who don't know how to make graphics into a factory of awesome.

 

That's my rant for the day. *Realizes that Jazz Jackrabbit is gone and looks for the sequel*

[Slowtrain]

Because Crysis' main selling point is its amazing visuals -something that will quickly become dated-, while the other games make use of something else.

Crysis' problem is that it makes use of amazing visuals that are interesting only because they are advanced and as such not the amazing visuals themselves. Games that inspire awe in the gamer because of graphics (STALKER, DoW1, CoH are all on my favorite recent games list) inspire awe because they use graphics in interesting and non-generic ways i.e. not rockslides.

People often talk about graphics being a problem, but they aren't. The problem is developers who don't know how to make graphics into a factory of awesome.

 

That's my rant for the day. *Realizes that Jazz Jackrabbit is gone and looks for the sequel*

 

 

I agree, but that crumbling mountain was still pretty freaking amazing to watch.

 

I think both STALKER and Crysis get excellent atmosphere from their visuals. STALKER just has a lot more game to go along with that, then Crysis does. STALKER also makes excellent use of ambient sound and weather effects and the night/day cycle, which Crysis doesn't do as much.

[LadyCrimson]

I am looking forward to Majesty2,

Wait, wait...wasn't that canceled?

 

*Googles*

*makes the "YES!" hand gesture*

 

Awesome news, and hopefully it'll be at least as fun as the original, even if it is all 3D artsy and stuff.

[Moatilliatta]

I agree, but that crumbling mountain was still pretty freaking amazing to watch.

 

I think both STALKER and Crysis get excellent atmosphere from their visuals. STALKER just has a lot more game to go along with that, then Crysis does. STALKER also makes excellent use of ambient sound and weather effects and the night/day cycle, which Crysis doesn't do as much.

My point with the rockslide was that you will very soon see an even pretter one as it was quite generic even if amazing.

STALKER on the other hand made dungeons that were much better than most that I've seen yet because of the lightning and awesome anomalies, none of which could have been done as well with earlier tech, and none of which will be likely to be trumped anytime soon unless people are ripping it off.

 

I couldn't find the atmosphere in Crysis though, the only thing that reminded me that I were in a tropical paradise was the fact that the sky was clear and there were white sand beaches. Much of that probably boils down to taste though.

 

And yes STALKER is superior in many other ways as well like how you can often hear the monsters in the dungeons before you see them and similar awesome stuff that works very well, it's true but that wasn't my point.

[karka]

I asked a similar question a while ago in a different place, why I haven't seen a racing game that I really liked since Carmageddon.

 

They may be all realism simulators today, but the fun has gone out of them

 

Have you tried Burnout series?

[Hassat Hunter]

Wait, wait...wasn't that canceled?

 

*Googles*

*makes the "YES!" hand gesture*

 

Awesome news, and hopefully it'll be at least as fun as the original, even if it is all 3D artsy and stuff.

For the latest: Paradox Majesty Forum.

 

 

I asked a similar question a while ago in a different place, why I haven't seen a racing game that I really liked since Carmageddon.

 

They may be all realism simulators today, but the fun has gone out of them

 

Have you tried Burnout series?

Or the one I already linked to? Audio-Surf? I am quite hooked on it, it is original, looks quite good for an indie game and is only $10 to boot...

[Pop]

If you're going to play a Burnout game, play the third one.

 

We kids who played games in the 90's are going to be the Baby Boomers of the gaming world. We already are, in a lot of ways. They never have and never will make a band game as good as Led Zeppelin / The Who / The Beatles Starcraft / JA2 / Fallout. Why do they even record music make games anymore? It's all garbage, with the rippin' and the rappin' and the hippin and the hoppin' emphasis on visuals and visceral gameplay. Bloo bla bloo. I remember when when I attended Woodstock played Pool of Radiance. People cared about music games back then. Not like these days.

Edited April 25, 2008 by Pop

[Slowtrain]

If you're going to play a Burnout game, play the third one.

 

We kids who played games in the 90's are going to be the Baby Boomers of the gaming world. We already are, in a lot of ways. They never have and never will make a band game as good as Led Zeppelin / The Who / The Beatles Starcraft / JA2 / Fallout. Why do they even record music make games anymore? It's all garbage, with the rippin' and the rappin' and the hippin and the hoppin' emphasis on visuals and visceral gameplay. Bloo bla bloo. I remember when when I attended Woodstock played Pool of Radiance. People cared about music games back then. Not like these days.

 

 

Your point might have merit except for the fact that some of us who played those games still buy and play and enjoy new games as well. Oh, well.

[Moatilliatta]

His point has some merit if you'll take a look at your top 4 games EVAR Hyperbole, yes, but there is merit in it.

Edited April 25, 2008 by Moatilliatta

[Arkan]

If you're going to play a Burnout game, play the third one.

 

We kids who played games in the 90's are going to be the Baby Boomers of the gaming world. We already are, in a lot of ways. They never have and never will make a band game as good as Led Zeppelin / The Who / The Beatles Starcraft / JA2 / Fallout. Why do they even record music make games anymore? It's all garbage, with the rippin' and the rappin' and the hippin and the hoppin' emphasis on visuals and visceral gameplay. Bloo bla bloo. I remember when when I attended Woodstock played Pool of Radiance. People cared about music games back then. Not like these days.

 

Haha! Good point!

 

It's a myriad of things, though, really.

 

What you said, Pop is largely a part of it, on point.

 

Another aspect is that I believe video games ARE evolving, which has been mentioned. Right now, they're being made bigger and badder, with not much room left over for rich content. Could this be a result of economics? Sure, why not? The same point again can be made about movies and music. Hopefully with video games, however, the various genre characteristics (to an extent) will culminate into the next true form of entertainment, where you do get to play in a living, breathing, realistic world with a rich, deep narrative that the player truly gets to be a part of.

 

The third thing goes along the lines with the nostalgia factor. Whenever all these great games came out in the 90s, the internets hadn't exploded yet, and the only way I could learn about a game was to buy it and try it. This is how I got Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment, Command and Conquer, etc. You really had to learn the game, and as you started playing it, the game opened itself up to you the way the developers intended (bugs notwithstanding), with no expectations. Today, instant access to nearly any and all information regarding every game being made - all but the last half of the story, at least - often with a year before release. Players' expectations simply aren't met. No longer do we go out and buy a game based on what the box sells us. We hit the net where we are met with an overabundance of info/hype about said game. (As an aside, there is nothing wrong with researching products you'll buy beforehand, but the difference between now and ten years ago in what detailed information you can find out is staggering). Learning the game is no longer required, in a sense, and marketing campaigns raise expectations to levels that can't be met. The more you know beforehand, the less you learn on the journey.

 

Or I could have no idea what I'm talking about. Hell, I haven't bought a game since Bioshock...before that? Hell, probably KotOR 2. I'd say 95% of my game collection is from the 90s, a time when time was plentiful, but money was not. Now money is less of a concern, but time is limited. Perhaps we're just getting old

[Slowtrain]

His point has some merit if you'll take a look at your top 4 games EVAR Hyperbole, yes, but there is merit in it.

 

 

Whenever I use the word EVAR you should be able to smell the sarcasm dripping from the EVAR.

 

Those are my favorite games though.

[Arkan]

Your point might have merit except for the fact that some of us who played those games still buy and play and enjoy new games as well. Oh, well.

His point has plenty of merit. Some of our parents probably enjoy 50 Cent, Rihanna, or Fallout Boy, just as much as they like the Stones, Beatles, Zep, etc. 'course...exception/rule and all that.

 

BTW, is STALKER really that good?

[Slowtrain]

Your point might have merit except for the fact that some of us who played those games still buy and play and enjoy new games as well. Oh, well.

His point has plenty of merit. Some of our parents probably enjoy 50 Cent, Rihanna, or Fallout Boy, just as much as they like the Stones, Beatles, Zep, etc. 'course...exception/rule and all that.

 

 

Oh, I misread his point then. I thought he was drawing an analogy to those people who dismiss anything new as crap and praise everything that they grew up with as great. If he is making more the point that some people can appreciate things that are both old and new, but aren't neccessarily young and totally hip, then OK, fair enough.

 

BTW, is STALKER really that good?

 

 

I think so, but I probably love the game to much to be taken as a credible source. It does have some problems: a fairly fractured narrative*, fairly weak story (but no more so than most FPS games), some misc quest bugs, AI that is sometimes great but sometimes pretty iffy. But for me, all that is good about the game far outweighs those things by such a huge margin that I don't even really notice them.

 

*edit: By fractured I mean broken, as in "what the hell does this make any sense and what do I do now and I think they left out some important information during the translation process". lol

Edited April 25, 2008 by CrashGirl

[Spider]

BTW, is STALKER really that good?

 

 

I think so, but I probably love the game to much to be taken as a credible source. It does have some problems: a fairly fractured narrative*, fairly weak story (but no more so than most FPS games), some misc quest bugs, AI that is sometimes great but sometimes pretty iffy. But for me, all that is good about the game far outweighs those things by such a huge margin that I don't even really notice them.

 

*edit: By fractured I mean broken, as in "what the hell does this make any sense and what do I do now and I think they left out some important information during the translation process". lol

 

That description is pretty much spot on. I'm not quite as enamoured with the game as CrashGirl is, but it's very good in spite of all it's flaws. The atmosphere alone is worth getting it for.

[Krookie]

If you're going to play a Burnout game, play the third one.

 

We kids who played games in the 90's are going to be the Baby Boomers of the gaming world. We already are, in a lot of ways. They never have and never will make a band game as good as Led Zeppelin / The Who / The Beatles Starcraft / JA2 / Fallout. Why do they even record music make games anymore? It's all garbage, with the rippin' and the rappin' and the hippin and the hoppin' emphasis on visuals and visceral gameplay. Bloo bla bloo. I remember when when I attended Woodstock played Pool of Radiance. People cared about music games back then. Not like these days.

 

What the hell does "bloo bla bloo" mean?

[Monte Carlo]

This is the bit I don't get, perhaps a marketing / industry person can enlighten me:

 

Information technology has revolutionised leisure. I live in London in the early 21st Century, and trust me, it's getting a bit like Bladerunner. OK, we don't have androids or floating police cars (not yet) but on the tube train I stand next to an Estonian punk rocker with a Japanese girlfriend dressed like Xena-goes-Goth or something. They are both playing computer games on their Nintendo hand-helds. He's playing some shoot 'em up, she's playing su doku and some brain-training thing. Between them they have i-phones, gaming consoles and a laptop. William Gibson would feel completely validated.

 

My point is everyone is different, and IT and the internet allows everyone to do the different things they enjoy. There must be a zillion micro-markets... for example my three year old plays simple online games themed around his favourite cartoon characters (actually I quite like the Go Diego Go! Aztec pyramid Tetris-clone).

 

Yet.... yet computer games, dominated by the 500lb gorilla that is the console market, are all turning into the same gooey mush. I find this dichotomy a bit depressing. Sport, racing cars or improbably-muscled avatars wielding comedy guns.

 

I suppose it must be development costs. Until technology allows developers to become like dead-tree book publishers and set up independent, profitable niche businesses catering for older gamers, as per the excellent post about the "gaming baby-boomers" (I'm almost forty and therefore older than most of you lot), I think we are stuck where we are. Having said that, Baby-Boomers can buy all their creaky 60's and 70's favourites digitally remastered and refreshed. Wouldn't it be great if they could do that with computer games? After all, CA looked at Medieval TW and said "that game is so great, now we've got better technology let's make it all over again - just even better!" And, lo! A hit game was given unto us.

 

 

Also, I honestly think that most of the developers I've conversed with over the years are like writers / authors - not actually greedy people - if they could make a reasonably decent living doing and creating the games they loved then they'd be happy. Hopefully more powerful internet access will allow us to download more mainstream games and see more originality.

 

One last word: piracy. Pirates are killing PC gaming. Theft is theft is theft. Until it stops, lots of the things we'd like to see won't happen. You are, literally, taking the food out of creative people's mouths.... not necessarily the big corporate sharks of popular myth who will always overpay themselves anyway.

 

Cheers

MC

Edited April 26, 2008 by Monte Carlo

[Humodour]

Seriously, when Dungeon Siege came out all the people on this forum correctly identified that it was actually a very expensive screensaver. A few years on, it now looks like a masterpiece of interactivity compared to some of the dreck I avoid in the games shop.

 

Agreed! And respect to the DS developers for taking fan advice and make Dungeon Siege 2 a really fun and interesting play through at least once. Although I'm perplexed by the fact that DS2 seemingly had less pretty graphics.

[mkreku]

I suppose it must be development costs.

It sure is. But where does all the money go?

 

Also, I honestly think that most of the developers I've conversed with over the years are like writers / authors - not actually greedy people - if they could make a reasonably decent living doing and creating the games they loved then they'd be happy.

That's weird. I've talked to a lot of game developers too. Do you know how many of them could imagine themselves sitting in a cubicle, drive a Toyota Corolla to work and eat lunch in the personnel room from a lunch box? None. You are comparing them to writers.. Remember, these guys are not the types who'll sit in anguish in their little hotel rooms with their type writers and drink absinthe. No, these are people who want to drive sports cars, sit in marble offices overlooking Central Park and eat.. OK, they might still enjoy eating fast food. It's horribly frustrating trying to interview a producer of the latest annual crapfest from EA and hear them whine about piracy killing the business. Because that's all it is now, business. Maybe it wouldn't be such a bad thing is business was, in fact, killed. Maybe I wouldn't have to be interviewing another overpaid piece-of-****-in-a-suit and instead could talk to people who are passionate about making games, who have a story to tell or something other than money that drives them. It would sure be a nice change of pace.

 

One last word: piracy. Pirates are killing PC gaming. Theft is theft is theft. Until it stops, lots of the things we'd like to see won't happen. You are, literally, taking the food out of creative people's mouths.... not necessarily the big corporate sharks of popular myth who will always overpay themselves anyway.

Are you sure? I don't believe this anymore. It used to be possible to make a game and make a living even if it didn't sell 1 million+ copies. Why isn't it anymore? Yes, I know there are more polygons in games nowadays. I also know games last around 8-10 hours nowadays. The tools are better now. There are more middle-ware to buy. Games have practically been so standardized by now that most every game out there could just change the title and the colour of the locust models and you'd have your new game already. Yet, it's supposed to be so much more difficult to make games now that everyone from the EA janitor to their grandmother must demand six figure salaries.. even if they make **** games.

 

As a (rather mean) example: Try asking J.E. Sawyer what kind of car he drives. Ask him how many motorcycles he owns. Ask him to post pictures of their new offices (where they won't have to put up with the common folk in their restroom). Then ask him how many blockbusters he has on his resume. Something doesn't add up. But it's easy to blame it on piracy.. They are, after all, breaking the laws, right?

[Hurlshort]

Eh, programmers and artists are skilled workers, and most of them work insane hours. It's not a job I could do, nor is it a job that I would want to do. I have no issue with them making six figures.

[Sand]

Not only yourself but myself and others tend to play games of the past more than the new ones. As I've said before games of today lack character, good stories, good npcs, etc. All its about is trying to impress the technogeeks and their 1337 graphics cards.

 

You need to give Mass Effect a try.

[Hell Kitty]

If back in the Olden Days all games were at the same level as something like [insert whatever old games you love here], then maybe all the folks complaining about Games Today would have a point, but the best games tend to be the exception to the rule, and that's probably as true today as it was way back when. Then again, maybe STALKER will end up in CrashGirl's garbage pile.