Evolution, creation or something else?

[WITHTEETH]

Love

 

Courage

 

Family

 

Reason

 

These are a few things that make me question the suuposed random nature of the universe. Why are we so different than one another? What is the human spirit? Why does my daughter have a personality of her own, instead of just acting exactly like my wife and I?

 

Seriously, I find it hard NOT to believe that there is something greater at work here.

 

This is more psychology and psychology is tough for me to get into. There is a new form of psychology called evolutionary psychology though that has been around for a very short time. It doesn't say we are absolutely selfish or altruistic but somewhere in between.

 

I would call these virtues a few are very stoic. How to explain them would be how they each separately effect the individual. Individuals complexities differ from person to person, each complexity still vastly different from the next. But take love for instance... Why does it exist? Chemically its generally just a chemical rushing to your brain called serotonin, and that chemical will give you a certain feeling. Why have this chemical rush to the brain? Could it help the human survive? Does it help the whole tribe as a community survive and co exist? I think it is beneficial to the survival,which leads to natural selection.

 

Thats could be one answer out of many answers for love.

Edited July 18, 2007 by WITHTEETH

[WITHTEETH]

The Current hypothesis is that the big bang was a super Cooled Higgs field.

yeah, perhaps. that'll change again i'm sure.

 

taks

Perhaps, and in ten more years they'll find even smaller particles, and smaller. Its fascinating what they find when they look at the particles up close.... space.

[taks]

I already pointed out what I feel is evidence for Intelligent Design, and no one addressed them.

ok, i'll bite. i'll also condense the text a bit to make it easier to read....

 

Love Courage Family Reason

These are a few things that make me question the suuposed random nature of the universe. Why are we so different than one another? What is the human spirit? Why does my daughter have a personality of her own, instead of just acting exactly like my wife and I?

actually, if we go with sand's statistical concept, i'd be surprised if anyone WAS the same.

 

all of the above are fictional concepts of man's own creation. feelings are nothing more than chemical responses that have evolved to serve some purpose, particularly: propagation of the species.

 

keep in mind, too, that we often visualize random as "not repeatable" and even, "unlikely to occur more than once." when put into the context of how minuscule our existence is compared to the vastness of everything else, such "random coincidences" seem so improbable, to the point of impossibility, that we cannot fathom how they can be true without some "other" explanation, namely, god. however, taking a broader view, the universe is soooooo large, nearly infinite in all respects (particularly at the atomic level), that just about anything will occur. some even propose that there are an infinite number of universes, each with its own unique configuration.

 

Seriously, I find it hard NOT to believe that there is something greater at work here.

almost an argumentum ad ignorantium (no, i'm not calling you ignorant). i.e., "i can think of no other way, therefore this must be true!". or perhaps, what is actually true is something you have not considered (or even, something none of us can ever understand). knowing the box from within the box is difficult indeed.

 

taks

[taks]

Perhaps, and in ten more years they'll find even smaller particles, and smaller. Its fascinating what they find when they look at the particles up close.... space.

yeah. i get into the BB game (as an observer) once every couple of years. it moves too slowly to keep up with on a daily basis so i simply check back in after a time and get caught up. most of the disgusting details are beyond my capabilities anyway.

 

taks

[Nick_i_am]

I'd be far more inclined to believe that an all powerful being could create somthing as goovy and dynamic as evolution rather than just making everything as it is.

[Gorgon]

I guess it's the glass being half full kinda thing, looking around at the world and going 'wow how amazing, god must have created that'. Thats fine and all, but it's not an actual argument, it's emotion.

[taks]

I'd be far more inclined to believe that an all powerful being could create somthing as goovy and dynamic as evolution rather than just making everything as it is.

sure, and that position requires just as much faith as an assumption that some random set of events "kicked off" the universe and thus its inhabitants. in the former, god must have existed _prior_ to the existence of the universe, so what created him? the latter requires an acceptance that _something_ existed prior to the universe, otherwise, how did it know to start?

 

taks

[WITHTEETH]

Or we could just as easily say the the invisibly pink unicorn created the universe prior to its existence.

[taks]

FSM.

 

that said, my headache is reaching a pinnacle of sorts. it may be the end of the work day for me.

 

taks

[Dark_Raven]

There is no god, so there is no creation. Its all evolution, survival of the fittest.

[metadigital]

well since i know my point of view has been said and its not really making an impact and no offense but im not sure of the point of this topic bc i know we'll never really agree or anything but its been interesting sharing opinions with yall and i think you need to read alot of the bible to judge if it was written by men.... well with that said im going to go swim or something so have fun doing what ur doing

I've probably read more of the Bible than you have.

[Nick_i_am]

There is no god, so there is no creation. Its all evolution, survival of the fittest.

 

I dunno, that doesn't seem to explain half the members of this forum.

[metadigital]

Actually I disagree on there is no evidence of intelligent design. Think on this. We have a moon that had propelled us to seek a way to reach it, to motivate us to see what is there. On that moon there just happens to be ice, water that we can use for it is necessary for our survival. Next we have Mars, which just happens to be terraformable and also has a source of water. By the time we get to Mars we will need large amount of metals and ore to continue and Earth is a long ways away. We now have the asteroid belt to get raw materials from. Now by this time we need a more fuel and even more water to do deep space missions. Where do we go? Jupiter and its moons, which one of them has tons of water just happen to be available and the gas giant itself is a good source of fuel if we can collect it.

 

Now is this all coincidence that this happened? Maybe, but I don't believe in coincidence.

So, the fact that there is a preponderance material that we use for life (including organic but not forgetting heavy atomic nuclei material) in the universe means that it was put here purposefully? Surely life evolving out of what is mostly available because it is here makes more sense than putting the cart before the horse like your logic demands.

 

The Current hypothesis is that the big bang was a super Cooled Higgs field.

Actually, there is also a more interesting one involving M-Theory (all encompassing, or multiple, String Theory) relating to hidden and visible branes.

[Hurlshort]

Eh, anyone who defines love as a series of chemical reactions in the brain really needs to examine their love life.

[taks]

i was gonna mention them thar branes.

 

now am i leaving for no raisin!

 

taks

[metadigital]

I already pointed out what I feel is evidence for Intelligent Design, and no one addressed them.

 

Love

 

Courage

 

Family

 

Reason

 

These are a few things that make me question the suuposed random nature of the universe. Why are we so different than one another? What is the human spirit? Why does my daughter have a personality of her own, instead of just acting exactly like my wife and I?

 

Seriously, I find it hard NOT to believe that there is something greater at work here.

Didn't see your post, but I'll address it now for you.

 

1. You are confusing natural selection with randomness again. Natural selection is a solution to the problem "why is the universe like it is", and a better one than "intelligent designer" or "random chance". Why? Because an intelligent designer simply creates a bigger, harder question, viz.: Where did the intelligent designer come from? Random chance is no better at describing how the universe became what we see, either, because (as Intelligent Designers are quick to point out) it is highly improbable that it would exist in its present form given nothing but randomness. Natural Selection is a method whereby complexity comes out of simplicity, thus solving the pre-nineteenth century conundrum of how something as complex as the universe could come to exist (previous to natural selection the only answer humans could think of was "from something more complex", hence a designer).

 

2. You are missing the very real and measurable impact that these factors are useful for the survival of humans. I think you are also assuming that there is a dualistic component (i.e. some sort of non-corporeal part) to said concepts, which is obviously not provable nor even necessary for their complete functioning.

 

3. Actually, the family construct is significant, and probably one of the major contributing factors to the (uniquely human?) symbolic brain. The need to track the reputation of social groups beyond simple relationships (like "can this person be trusted to help me raise children over 20 years"), through natural selection, brought about a complete restructuring of the human mind (versus our closest relatives, for example). (I read an article recently that led me to conjecture that the corvus species might share this symbolic representative brain.)

 

4. It's interesting that you quote reason, too, as it is generally cited as the enemy of faith.

 

 

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.

Galileo Galilei

[Hurlshort]

I'm still having some trouble understanding natural selection, or rather how it works against the belief of a higher power. Can you elaborate?

 

Great Luther and Galileo quotes, by the way.

[WITHTEETH]

Eh, anyone who defines love as a series of chemical reactions in the brain really needs to examine their love life.

Truth and beauty can be very different. Which is more important, who knows!

[WITHTEETH]

Natural selection means that things evolve through traits that helped survival and reproduction, this gets done by gene sifting. Through this process micro and macro evolution occurs through time driven by the species, not some type of God. This means no Intelligent designer is needed to create a nylon bug, or liger. Is it saying there is no god? No thats impossible to say, thats like saying there are no Pink unicorns, Its impossible to disprove a negative. Science can only show reality, not another realm like The Forms.

 

edit: A God might possibly exist, there just has to be some kind of positive empirical evidence for a skeptic to see it. Its an extraordinary claim to say there is a god. All I ask for is to see some evidence. Meta made me think when he mentioned emotions. This idea of God/Jesus and the right way to be one is to be saved. To have a personal relationship to God/Jesus means you are emotionally attached. Losing a friend hurts, even if its not based in reality, i can understand.

 

Daniel Dennet Just wrote a book named Religion: As a natural Phenomenon. It dives into memes and gives another look at them. He puts forth that its not reproduction that humans do like any other animal. And its not parasites that inter our brains and control us. Its Ideas. Ideas like religion, freedom, Democracy, communism. These ideas attach itself to parts of our brain and competes with other ideas. But are some of these ideas that people die for beneficial? Would we really let an idea dictate our brain? Islam does mean- To Submit.

 

I think we should teach Critical Thinking at a younger age. I wish i had it, instead I had bible classes twice a week, they indoctrinated me as a child. I was told I was a Christian, i was baptized before i ever had a chance to excersice freewill. They implanted an idea deep inside my head that painstakingly didn't want be over ruled.

Edited July 19, 2007 by WITHTEETH

[DeathScepter]

I'm still having some trouble understanding natural selection, or rather how it works against the belief of a higher power. Can you elaborate?

 

Great Luther and Galileo quotes, by the way.

 

 

 

It really doesn't work against the Higher Power nor does it disproves the Higher Power or its involvement of the creation of the universe.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

the only thing im really against is the fact that evolution is taught as fact and not theory in schools.

 

You should look up the scientific use of "theory," as I believe you think it means the same thing as "guess" or supposition." This is not correct, as "theory," when used in the scientific sense, is a logical explanation -or a testable model- and is capable of being tested through experiment or through empirical observation. "Theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition, and, in the case of evolution, are equivalent.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

i dont think there is any proof to anything. or none that would necisarilly be good enough for most ppl. and that goes for evolution and creation. if you want proof for creation u'd have to read the bible with an open mind which i doubt most of you are willing to do so if you want proof, this is prolly the wrong topic

 

 

There is no feasible way to back a literal translation of the Bible (exempli gratia: creationism) other than twisted, unfounded, religious ideology. While it is your right to attempt to sway those who dissent, you can do nothing but regurgitate, in my mind, the same old drivel. You have NO eyewitnesses, only a book that has been translated and rewritten hundreds of times. Consider the source, and you might agree that the Bible is clearly a secondary source that contains its own bias. Do you think that the writers and re-writers would not try to change the Bible for their own motives? I can only surmise that if the Christian Fundamentalists, and others, take the Bible at face value they could also take "Jack and the Beanstalk" at face value. Yes, many places in the Bible have been found; or rather it is believed that they have been found. There is no evidence, however, that proves these are the same places. Even if they are, what does this prove? There are a lot of historic accuracies in the bible, but that does not mean every word of it is true by default. It would be ludicrous to conclude that, simply because some of the locations described in the Bible exist, the entire tome is historically accurate. Biblical evidence does not meet current academic standards, and therefore their

[Sand]

So, the fact that there is a preponderance material that we use for life (including organic but not forgetting heavy atomic nuclei material) in the universe means that it was put here purposefully? Surely life evolving out of what is mostly available because it is here makes more sense than putting the cart before the horse like your logic demands.

 

I am not talking about the universe in general but our specific solar system. Since I do not know about the whole universe it would be silly to make such claims about it as a whole, so I am limiting to what I know, right here in our backyard, so to speak.

[Oerwinde]

I'm surprised that no one mentioned this yet:

 

Evolution is the theory explaining the development of life from its origins to today.

Creationism is the theory explaining the origin of life.

 

TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS.

 

The real debate is Abiogenesis vs Creationism.

[seejai]

yes thats why i kept getting kindof confused bc i was saying i believed God created us but i also believe things evolve to an extent.