Why I like TSL more than KotOR

[Guest The Architect]

Yeah yeah I know, this topic has been done plenty of times. I apologize for creating an extremely unoriginal topic. But while I

Edited February 14, 2007 by The Architect

[Gorgon]

What is TSL ?

[Guest The Architect]

What is TSL ?

 

The Sith Lords.

[Gorgon]

Kotor 2. All these abbreviations...

[hawk]

Well Architect,

 

It is fortunate that I am here and I am able to provide a good and serious answer as you know you can expect from me. You have made some very good points as to why TSL was better then Kotor in your opinion. After reading your, some would say, long post it got me thinking and now I know you are right. Obsidian has made a very good storyline with a different approach then the common SW storyline which Kotor represented.

 

But because Kotor has:

 

1) More detailed characters in which you feel know all about in the end

 

2) Gives a "finished" feeling. Not much cut content.

 

3) Has a revelation some don't expect, others did. For myself, I can tell you that Kotor was the first RPG I ever played in my life so I didn't know about it. I just thought I was someone important and that because all main characters are always the most powerful beings I didn't really think about my own character. All of a sudden, I was Revan. Well, I know what to expect from a storyline driven RPG now.

 

4) Maybe Revan is somehow a better PC then the Exile. Why this is? Perhaps because he was the Dark Lord of the Sith? Maybe because he is the first one who took action in the Mandalorian wars while the Exile only followed him? I don't know. Maybe we could explore that further? Who is the favourite PC of boith games? Revan or the Exile and off course, why? Simple answers enough on this forum.

 

Also, I think Kotor might also be overrated because, let's face it, Kotor was the first Star Wars RPG everyone played. When another Kotor comes in, you know, everyone expects it to be better then no. 1.

And then someone finds lot's of bugs, plotholes. everything which is why it was turned down by most of the players. They expected that you could do much more evil acts, Obsidian promised that, but what is the most evil act in Kotor II? Playing DS in Kotor II is IMO playing as a thug. No, I expected to convince people that you did the right thing while it was completely evil.

 

In the end, Kotor II could have been much better then Kotor I if it had fewer plotholes, bugs etc. etc. which we may blame to Lucasarts, we will hopefully see if we are right to blame them. Hopefully Kotor III can be made with a less tight time scedule.

 

Other then that, you know I am working on a possible plot for Kotor III which I think you will agree on is at least until now my best plot I made so far.

 

Hopefully some more people will post on this thread with explanations as to why TSL or Kotor is better in their opinion and possibly what course of action Kotor III should take which could also maybe help me with my own Kotor III plot.

 

I think you should also post this thread on the Lucasforum as I am sure people will probably be interested as well.

[kalimeeri]

I agree with TA overall, that Kotor's story closely mirrors the OT (and consequently follows the simple heroic-adventure story formula that GL and countless others have used). There really are no new plots, or twists. Once you've seen one, you've basically seen 'em all. What sets one such story apart from another, in any given genre, are the characters and the way that they meet those standard challenges.

 

This is where Kotor 1 shines, and why it still has a singular appeal separate from the OT, and from K2. Revan is a memorable character, in that in spite of the challenges set before him, he maintains resiliency--and a sense of humor. And at the same time there is a cold anger beneath the surface, both at the Jedi Order and at Malak, the friend who betrayed him.

 

The game sparkles with humor, both situational and character-driven. Jolee is irreplaceable, Mission is adorable, Bastila is easily embarrassed, you can't take Canderous anywhere without feeling his machismo is going to land the whole party in trouble, and HK ... well, you know. I even like Carth. (umm, Juhani not so much).

 

That's why I still play K1, and still love it. It's obvious that it was meant to encompass the entire OT in a single game-- beginning, middle and end--and that it did. At that point, I don't believe there were any plans for a continuation of any kind.

 

TSL had a tough act to follow.

 

Kotor2 was brilliant, in that it not only picked up the thread of Revan's story, it enhanced it, deepened it. Players started over with a new PC whom they had no reason to care about, but the instant that Exile's backstory intertwined with Revan's, I was sold.

 

K2 was a vastly different game. First, it was darker; but considering the Exile's past and the current state of the galaxy, it needed to be. It was as if the light had been snuffed out, but you could see it way off in the distance, guess where. Second, it was obvious that this story was the middle part of a trilogy.

 

The way that K2 blended Exile in was truly inspired; and Kreia's character was a masterful touch. For me, at least, that's who this game was about: Revan, Kreia, and Exile. I was happy to see T3, HK, Bastila, Carth and Canderous again. But with the exception of Bao-Dur, I found it hard to care about the rest. (And in fact, the way the game shipped, there was no way anyone could, because those people didn't matter).

 

The subtlety found in K2 is a rare thing to find in a video game; it tells you nothing. One play-through I'll get one impression, and the next I think differently. But for all the speculation, I'm still not sure any one of us is sure how much impact Kreia had on Revan, or what he had planned to do. I do know I want Exile to find out, and that I still think he and Revan (along with our old friends Canderous, et al) are the key to ending the story successfully.

 

And like TA, I would only trust this task to Obsidian. They took this story and ran with it, and in the process made it their own. They've shown me that they know story, and I want to see where they were going.

 

So which do I think is better? That still depends on which one I'm playing at the time. But I can't ever play K1 any more without applying K2's subtle implications, nor K2 without missing Revan and wanting Exile to help resolve his plan. In other words, I guess I want Kreia to be vindicated--because I don't believe she was evil. Only prophetic.

 

I think that's 400 words. Or, well, more. But I think K2 was a greater game, in that it made K1 something better too; and the two can't be separated.

[JWEBSR]

It's funny. In my mind, I have this love for the first and certain things about it. But, I play 2 about 4xs as much. If the first was longer, with more flexible plot lines, the ability to turn your companions into Jedi, and the ability to create upgrades for weaponry, I think that I would like it better. But it doesn't so I like #2 better. I also like the fact that I could find different items in different places from game to game----rather than knowing where everything is ahead of time. Also, the fighting is better in So, for replay, I guess I prefer 2. On the flip side however, the first moves along quicker with les as well as the pazaak. Plus, I don't have to keep shooting down Sith fighters just because I want to travel to another planet. On the flip side, #1 moves along quicker without slowing down for discussion and movie clips, which to me can be annoying. I don't have to tolerate dreary Peragus and watch all of the holovids. I also can open a container without breaking something. I don't have to go in and out and in and out of a cantina to get someone off of a murder rap. Waiting for the machine to load over and over when you want to fight someone drives me crazy. And then the bottom line is that Darth Malak was a more compelling foe who is harder to face than any of the enemies in #2. But why can't I go over level 20? I'm going back and forth, aren't I? Well, here's my conclusion: For the first time playing, Kotor 1 was the most compelling game that I've ever played. I was sucked in to the story and saving the galaxy. And, when I figured out that I was Revan(this was before it was revealed), I was blown away! This may have something to do with the fact that I never played any of these games before. I only got an XBox to play the 2 Kotor games because I'm a Star Wars fan and they looked intriguing. Maybe for veterans of RPG games, it seemed predictable and repetitive. I recently played Jade Empire and immediately saw the parellel with Kotor 1. But still, you never forget your first. For replay value, as I mentioned before, it's Kotor #2. I play it over and over again trying to complete it differently each time(because you get that option). Hopefully, LucasArts will get their heads out of their rear ends and combine the finer points of the 2 games and give us fans a megagame that blows the first 2 away. But I won't hold my breath.

[Maverick4101]

I had more fun playing TSL than Kotor so... I pick TSL.

 

But I understand the arguments for both games.

[Hassat Hunter]

I also prefered TSL over Kotor1; but here are the biggest things that Kotor1 actually did better; and thus should not be repeated in an eventual sequel.

 

#1: The bugs and rushingness. Discussed enough already; but still wanted to note that while I replayed Kotor1 right away after completion to see "the other side"; there was no such wish in Kotor2. Which might also have to do with:

#2: PERAGUS. You might compare T3 and the EH with the Harbinger; but the fact is I compare Peragus with the Harbinger; boring "lack of RPG-interaction" tutorial levels. And for a tutorial Peragus was far too long; and lacked proper interaction with NPC's. For a sequel please go back again to provide an interesting first planet with many subquests... minigames (pazaak; fighting ring) for after the tutorial. It is ok to fit in a mysterious abonded large level in later; but please let us begin "nice".

#3: The Kotor2 NPC's: You might disagree; but the Kotor1 NPC's where prefered above their Kotor2 counterparts; despite the great new addition of their personal "walks out" (Nar Shaddaa, Tomb) just because they have so few things to say! You might be right in complaining about the spoon-feeding... there was ALOT they told you. While as with Visas for example you are done in a line or 7/8; same with Mira... It would be welcomed if they combined the Influence based convo with many "objective based" convo too; like the Dxun discussion which, unfortunately, does not continue on after that anymore though. Also I had the idea that in Kotor1 the teammates would have far more to say in conversations with NPC's on the street (98% anyone?) than their counterparts, bar maybe Kreia.

#4: Minigames; it was nice they made the turrent non-required; but then give a small bonus or something if you still do it anyway. Also I found Pazaak and especially Swoop Racing less fun in Kotor2 than Kotor1. It would have been nice if they actually added in Kotor1's cut Swoop-upgrade-idea instead of mines and jumps

#5: I don't think I need to give anymore words on the low-quality of the movies between either?

#6: The skills for convo's and breakdown/fix things are nice; but they made it that you miss quite alot of the game if you ain't a Sentinel, which is kind of dissapointing. Also the breakdown is kind of moot if you find better stuff than you can create anyways; and if not you still have 1000 components from random drops.

#7: Which lands us on the Random Loot Generator. While it may work out in a Diablo or Dungeon Siege it is odd in a RPG like Kotor to find robes in turrets and stuff. More fixed stuff or limitations on what type (X) enemies can drop on defeat would be nice... (not to mention lightsaber wearing enemies to DROP lightsabers upon their death; as in Kotor1)

#8: The powerfullness of Force Powers. Thanks to the enormous high levelcap of Kotor2; but a near to none altered system to nerf powers you quickly become too overpowered (both Kotor1 and 2's Force Storm have the same power; with the exception that in Kotor1 you can get it 10% before the end; and in Kotor2 20% after the start :confused:). Balancing has been an issue in Kotor1 already; but in Kotor2 it just got worse. Might be nice if they took the time to properly do that next time around.

 

Well; that was what I quickly made up... they are 400 words right?

And as I mentioned I DO prefer TSL; but that is mainly due to the heavily improved plot; the gameplay has been decreasing a bit.

[DAWUSS]

One thing I do like about TSL is the fact that it has more of an Ian Fleming-esque approach when it comes to opposing sides: Neither thinks it's evil (I should probably say "the bad guy") - it's all a matter of perspective. In most SW instances, it's clearly drawn out that the DS is evil, and it's usually done in the children's-cartoon-black-and-white manner

[JediMasterWeasel]

Well, Architect, I don't have 400 words, but you took them all out of my mouth and said them for me. :tongue:

 

I agree, even with all the cut content, TSL is better in my opinion.

[Guest The Architect]

Completely off-topic: I was supposed to post this post I

Edited February 16, 2007 by The Architect

[Purgatorio]

I... agree with most of what Architect has said, except for knowing that the PC was Revan earlier than the writers probably intended. However that is possibly as a result of my virginity regarding console role playing games, also at that time I did not possess a particularly extensive knowledge of the typical or atypical plot twists in the fictional universe of Starwars. In comparison to the knowledge that I hold at this moment in the earths cycle around the central celestial body, which in the language of those who derive their verbal form of communication from a diverse and thoroughly interesting mix of Germanic, Latin, and the native tongue of the Brits is simly called "The Sun" it was considerably minute in expanse.

One who is more likely to speak with brevity might simply say "I knew little about Starwars when I got KOTOR so I didn't think they would do that. " But judging from Bioware's 'Jade Empire', such plot twists are a common practice for that company which I mentioned previously in this sentence. I am weary with disinterest.

Edited February 19, 2007 by Purgatorio

[Diego Varen]

I agree with what TA has to say about TSL being better than KOTOR. KOTOR is overrated, compared to TSL and BioWare are also overrated, when it comes to KOTOR. Some say that Obsidian rushed TSL, which they did, but they wouldn't have rushed it, if LucasArts hadn't forced them to release the game for Christmas. So I blame Lucas for the incomplete game, but even that doesn't put me off the game. TSL has a more mysterious and intriging story, compared to KOTOR's similiar story to the OT. TSL is the OT's PT. It changed the way Star Wars stories flowed and characters like Kreia made TSL much more interesting than what Bastila or any other popular KOTOR character made it. Also, the plot twist in KOTOR was obvious when playing it the second time. Many Jedi, including Master Vrook make it obvious that you're Revan. Personally, the plot twist in TESB was good and much better than the one seen in KOTOR. When I watched TESB, I wondered how could Vader be Luke's father and there were no clues that could suggest that Vader was Luke's father, before the plot twist. I preferred the plot twist in TSL, which was different and gave me no clues. TSL is also better when I write Fan Fiction, because writers can expand on TSL's events and the characters, like GO-TO and Mical who are mysterious and don't give much opportunity for learning about them, unlike KOTOR, where they basically just tell you about themselves, after a short playthrough. TSL forces you to actually work to bond with TSL's characters, with the Influence System. So overall, I prefer TSL.

 

Sorry if I didn't make any sense, etc.

[WhiteRaven]

Okay, I'll try to be unbiased here.

 

 

"Vandar/Yoda"

 

did you think Yoda was the only... whatever they are?

 

"Star Forge/Death Star"

 

uh... Star Forge- awesome battle dreadnaught/matter generator, Death Star- Big metal ball. despite it's popularity there was nothing abnormally cool about the Death Star, like Halo.

 

"Bastila/Leia"

 

uh... What about them?

 

 

"The list goes on. What would KotOR be without these things in the OT to draw inspiration and ideas from? What gave it that

[Purgatorio]

"Vandar/Yoda"

 

did you think Yoda was the only... whatever they are?

The only Yoda species? There is another female one of them called Yenta or something...

"Star Forge/Death Star"

 

uh... Star Forge- awesome battle dreadnaught/matter generator, Death Star- Big metal ball. despite it's popularity there was nothing abnormally cool about the Death Star, like Halo.

 

"Bastila/Leia"

 

uh... What about them?

The "Army of Bastilas glitch" is a reference to the multiple Xenas in Xena.

Leia/Kreia.

The Librarian in the second prequel looks like Atris.

The Exile/Obiwan.

G0T0/The Antiquated Interrogation Droid.

Yeah, because kotor had no glitches or bugs at all. I've had some of the weirdest, oh earlier, I repaired HK for the 3rd time and it worked but I had to reload a few times because it didn't work and I got some weird item called HK-47 HOE-3, or then there was one of the most bizarre, this one doesn't even seem possible, I was getting crystals in Dantooine, and the game froze up, so naturally, I banged my fist on the floor, causing it to shake, then turned the X-box off, then back on, now this is the weird part, my save file actually loaded before I pressed anything, then I got something like:

 

1 dark side point gained

 

1 light side point gained

 

1 dex experience received

 

1 dex experience lost

 

... something like that anyway, uh... anyone know what might cause something so ridiculous?

I had something like that in the first game, I entered the tomb of Tulak Hord(or whoever the Light-Saber specialist was) the game jammed spitting me back out the front door to the tomb, where I found I had magically completed the quest giving me a net darkside shift.

 

Another was the Navicomputer freezing making me reload.

 

Those stupid space suits that you have to use twice. Once was bad enough!

 

Somehow when traveling from Korriban instead of landing at a normal regular Space Port I would end up landing in the research station on Manann. That was fun a few times, but killing a Rancor with lightning can get boring. So that forced egg was a bad idea.

 

The weired glitch of T3M4 not being needed to open the door on Taris, I must have asked the Wookie something which got him to bash the door down.

 

There is also the Implants not being a Feat... Who was the idiot that thought it a good idea to make a scout level up as a scout just because you had an implant in at the moment of gaining enough experience, even if your a level 11 Jedi Guardian!? :wallbash: A question that wont be answered, but I choose to use a question mark anyway.

 

The only glitch I've had with Kotor 2 is slight lag in the tomb of Freedon Nadd... not bad lag, a little slower, made it slightly sluggish, and there was a green tinge to the screen. And crashing in the Shyrak cave on the bridge where the assassins are, but that was because I... um made all members use Storm and Wave, so twas my own fault. :happy:

[Dark_Raven]

I like of the features of TSL compared to K1. Custom building your items, the influence system, better developed characters and a decent story that told the past about the Mando Wars and the Jedi Civil War.

[Brdavs]

Gameplay wise TSL itroduced some nifty fetaures one now sorely misses in K1... But I do still think K1 was better. One reason is that I prefer SW stories being the good old clear cut good vs. evil duel that defines SW... but thats not the main reason.

 

KOTOR introduced a de facto new universe filled with untold potential. Thousands of jedi/sith, epic confrontations, old jedi order and all that jazz... it was one of the best selling points it had tbh. I personally found paralels (like wookie/scoundrel character pairs etc.) more of a plus than a minus to the game. Yes it kinda ripped off certain elements. But it turned out nice. Enjoy the irony of how historic details have a tendency to repeat themselves hehe..

For the life of me, I can`t understand how ppl ranting about KOTOR ripp off`s of the OT don`t mind TSL wich pulled the biggest and most catastrophical ripp off of them all... It took one of the gratest things about KOTOR and threw it out the window, trading it for another "last of the masacred *insert*, alone against the overwhelming odds" Luke type of story. Never mind its been done to death mind you! The point is that where KOTOR paralels with the cannon movies can be forgiven/overlooked/ignored with no ill effect. That can`t be done with TSL. It ripped off the entire friggin universe. Not only it messed itself up for a "picky" player like KOTOR did, it potentionally messed it up for all of its succesors that will be tied to its story. It massacred and butchered what was a very promissing timeline so that we now have one that is practically the same as the one after the OT... It now really doesn`t matter if K3 is set 20 years after TSL or 20 years after the OT (leaving the whole unfortunate EU aside), does it?

I wouldn`t say I hate TSL for doing that, but I certanly resent it. I still rate it as a good game but imho they took it in the completley wrong direction.

 

Personally, I hope K3 will be set like 5-10k years after TSL and the franchise gets "another fresh start"... With some of Revans and Exiles actions having a long lasting effect on the plot so their story is tied up...

Edited February 21, 2007 by Brdavs

[Guest The Architect]

did you think Yoda was the only... whatever they are?

 

No, but whatever way you look at it, he

Edited February 22, 2007 by The Architect

[Brdavs]

@Umm…Brdays, TSL didn’t rip-off as many things (characters, plot, and concepts) as what KotOR did. And the whole ‘win against overwhelming odds’ rip-off claim is just…silly, since the OT didn’t begin that, and considering the Exile’s wound in the force status, the odds were in his/her favour, from my point of view anyway.

 

Ummm... you`re kinda missing the point here...

 

It`s not about the quantity of rip-offs... Its SW ffs, how can it be anything but a rip-off of the OT? A macho NPC will always draw paralels to Han. A mentor type to Obi1. A love story to Han&Leia/Ani&Padme. Redemption story to Vader etc. etc. Most people enjoy seeing a bit of the movie characters in them and will instinctivly look for conections like that.

 

Its about the "weight" of them. Face it, most of what K1 and K2 riped-off is kinda inconsequential... you like it, great candy for you, you don`t, you can easily live with Atton&Exile remebering you of H&L and still have fun...

The main beef is that TSL takes it to a whole new level; wich is actually an old level, and that`s the problem. To (again) kill of every jedi just to set off the PC on a Luke type mission was a heavy heavy alteration of the exciting timeline that brought a whole new dimension to the SW universe. Heavy copying that killed it off, to be precise. You got stuck on what the odds allegedly are... wth? thats like saying it`s different cos exile is female. Who cares about the odds or gender? The fact is: TSL took a 180% U-turn and went for the "last of the" routine we know soooo well... That single rip-off causes more "damage/problems" to the franchise and timeline that all other K1&2 rip-offs combined. What K1 bult up K2 tore down even before the oppening scene, and went for the "good old" formula. However you may feel about K1, it still left a huge amount of manouvering space for TSL to do an "inovative" story in this "inovative" timeline. What TSL did kinda left K3 with very few options on the inovative scale, barring new drastic changes wich will marginalise TSL as the experiment gone wrong heh.

As it stands, if you have great K3 cravings you can just go play JK series. Just rename the characters and apply the new year count in your head. KOTOR looks to have turned into the all to simmilar story in the grand scheme of things.

 

Here`s hoping K3 takes another U-turn!

Edited February 22, 2007 by Brdavs

[Guest The Architect]

I disagree that most of what KotOR ripped off was inconsequential. Did you read my first post of my thread? If you did, then you should be able to see why I think that KotOR pretty much is just the OT, just set in a different timeline. Same plot, same characters, same concepts.

 

I don

Edited February 23, 2007 by The Architect

[hawk]

Every jedi dead or in hiding which means we could see some Jedi in Kotor III we have seen before.

[Darth Rexon]

I agree with TSL.

 

Wouldn't Bastila also be Anakin?

[Xard]

Uh, no. Bastila is Bastila and Anakin is Anakin

[Wolfmann]

KOTOR was like all first's in a series. It established the framework of expectation for the others. It received 10/10 in many reviews and is in my opinion still one of the best, RPG's and hands down is the best Star Wars game, ever. KOTOR 2's deficiencies however are partly Lucasart's fault (rushing the product for Christmas release) as well as the problem with all mid-quels: it is only the foundation to set up the finale.

 

As far as middle sequels (mid-quels) go it was still pretty good. But, unlike KOTOR, it never had that A-HA! moment like Revan's Revelation did in the first one. For that, it automatically loses a point. It still received 8/10 in most reviews.

 

Both stories are plot and character driven, and I suppose you should judge the success of an excellent game those factors. Do you care for the character enough to want to follow them to next plot? And do you want the story to keep going?

 

For both KOTOR 1 & 2, you have to answer yes, though the characters in the 2nd were inherently weaker and more poorly written. Kreia, Diciple, Mira, and the Exile herself were the only real compelling or tragic characters. The other's were clearly filler. Go-to, Bao-dur, Handmaiden, Hanhar, even Mandalore were filler. You could easily remove them and not lose anything to the game - though Mandalore is pretty handy later in the game. Atton is an exception, because he has a dark secret - but it's not presented with much fanfare or drama. Revealing his past, much like revealing Kreia as Darth Traya (which you could see coming a MILE away) is anti-climactic at best.

 

Obsidian dropped the ball in creating a moment like Revan's Revelation in TSL.

 

As for parallels to the original trilogy...NO SH*T SHERLOCK.

 

This Star Wars thing is formulaic. The developers knew there could very well be three games, and they have made parallels to the original star wars movies because that MAKES THE MOST SENSE. Don't look at it like cheating, look at it like you're experiencing the same experiences as AHP, ESB, ROTJ...only 4,000 years previously. You're engaging in an experience that is your own, but has been shared with Luke Skywalker, Han Solo and the others.

 

Overal, both games are a dialogue on life - the struggles of the few are repeated through out history by the many. They are intelligent written, well produced, and though the second suffered from factors outside of the developer's control, both products are still excellent.

 

In the end, I still prefer KOTOR over KOTOR 2, but I play both at least once a year back to back, so it's really inconsequential.

Edited February 27, 2007 by Wolfmann