NWN2: Discussion

[Dark_Raven]

In my first game I let him become a monk. In my second game I kept him as a fighter and specialized in warhammers so he could use the Ironfist equipment to better effect. As a monk he did slightly less damage but rarely got hurt. As a fighter he did more damage but had to be healed once in awhile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't like monks and Khelgar will not become one in my party. The whole concept of a dwarf becoming a monk is ridicules.

[Dark_Raven]

"Not surprisingly, Obsidian doesn't post negative reviews on the front page. So much for candid reporting."

 

Why in bejeebvers woudl they, and how in your illogical mmind do you figure they should?

 

Of course Obsidian is bias. It's their friggin' game. They want it to sell, and do good so they can stay in business. It's not their job to provide a balanced view. That's whack!

 

As long as they don't flat out lie; they cna do whatever they want. period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

America is about capitalism! A business is not going to discuss the negatives about their products, they wouldn't be in business for very long if they did in the captialist market.

[Darque]

Try using Grimgnaw

 

Before having that stunted monk as a side kick I wasn't fond of dwarves or monks... now I want to play one.

 

Well, at least a monk anyway.

[Dark_Raven]

I just can't see Bruce Lee in the Forgotten Realms.

[Gromnir]

reviewers is 'posed to be fair and balanced.

 

game developers and publishers is NOT in the business of being fair and balanced. developers and publishers is in the business of selling games... unles you worked for troika, and then your business were to see just how long you could manage to get a free ride based on reputation of fallout... or maybe you were in business to see just how many publishers you could alienate before going out of business yourself. congrats to troika on managing to get 3 strikes before being called out.

 

btw, the reviewers is doing a pretty piss-poor job of being fair and balanced.

 

repost:

 

nwn2 has many problems. is more than a few technical issues. the inventory systsem is a nightmare. auto-resurrection kotors/nerfs combat. play different class or race seems to not have much impact on game. some of the npcs has very little to contribute as far as dialogues is concerned. etc. nevertheless, we is surprised at just how terrible some of the reviews is.

 

1) we suspect that more than a few reviewers gots some misplaced guilt 'bout nwn.

 

anybody recall the nwn reviews? most was ridiculously good. we enjoyed nwn and we saw loads of potential, but the reviews from gamespot and cgw and other sources were a bit too good. we suspect that more than a few of those reviewers who made arses of selves with their 9/10 reviews is looking for a little misplaced payback this time 'round. "nobody is going to be able to to accuse me of being soft on NWN2, that is for damn sure."

 

2) the bg effect strikes again

 

bg had a cliche story with a hole-punch bad guy (if vol weren't surprised by Ultimate Bad Guy for nwn2, then we wonders what level of contempt he had for sarevok.) the quests were almost all fed-ex, and the npcs added little more than a catchphrase and a stat sheet. most of those maps peoples loved to "explore" (HA!) had little actual game content on 'em save for a laughably shallow quest and maybe a hobgoblin ambush or two. nevertheless, bg were the first playable d&d game for quite some time, and peoples were so damned starved for crpgs just then... and for those looking for a little more rpg than were available in diablo, bg were a nice change. regardless, bg were a seriously flawed game that somehow managed to becomes embraced by fans in spite of shortcomings.

 

bg2 comes out and improves on bg in almost every way imagined. sure, bg2 had problems, but it were a damned sight better than bg. 'course reality not match recollection of the True Fan. the hardcore bg fan somehow saw everything that were good 'bout bg w/o noticing flaws. to True Fans, bg2 were simply a pale reflection of bg, and an insult to the bg franchise to boot.

 

we suspect that more than a few reviewers (and posters) gots same issues with nwn2 that many haters had with bg2. they is not reasonable or rational, but these folks is real familiar to Gromnir. can't reason with the True Fan... whether you be talking 'bout bg or fallout or nwn.

 

btw, we ain't saying that nwn2 improves nwn to same degree that bg2 improved nwn... 'cause it don't. there is a kinda unfinished quality 'bout nwn2 that were not present with bg2. regardless, nwn2 does clearly improve 'pon nwn and even the suggestion o' that seems to offend some persons.

 

3) oblivion envy

 

oblivion were popular. reviewers KNOW that oblivion were popular. some reviewers seems determined to compare & contrast oblivion and nwn2. Gromnir fully concedes that bushes and shrubs look much nicer in oblivion than in nwn2. that being said, there really weren't all that much diversity as far as oblivion environments were concerned... every dungeon had a terrible sameness 'bout 'em that only seemed to add to general monotony of the game. and lets us be honest, most of the "quests" in oblivion were fed-ex, and the ones that weren't were pretty uninspired... maybe that is 'cause they secretly hired tim cain to does the dialogue and level design work. oh, and don't even get us started on the bass ackwards rules system that rewarded folks for choosing skills they rarely used as their main skills. in any event, we not see many ways in which oblivion compares favorably to nwn2... other than size of gameplaying world. but reviewers sees different. reviewers sees oblivion as current benchmark... which is actually a pretty safe thing to be doing. by oblivion's standard nwn2 is smaller and has less pretty trees. open game world and non-d&d seems to be "in" at the moment.

 

*shrug*

 

dunno. we not think nwn2 deserves 9/10, but it sure as hell is better than a 6/10... and more important, many of the reasons being given for murdering nwn2 in reviews is qualities that seems to be acceptable or overlooked in any number o' other similar games. it simply seems to Gromnir that some reviewers is working real hard to give nwn2 a bad review.

 

end repost

 

we has seen reviews at sci-fi.com and 1-up that seemed to really be trying hard to dislike nwn2... and it ain't that hard to find reasons to dislike. is there far too few tangential side-quests in nwn2? yeah. hell yeah. you bet your arse that nwn2 is a lot more "linear" than Gromnir would like. obsidian were well on its way to replicating a tim cain organizational nightmare... almost had nwn2 become toee2. josh sawyer were brought in to fix nwn2 less than 6 months ago, and while he probaly did his bestest, there just weren't 'nuff time and resources to keep from having to cut out stuff that weren't essential. we gots a streamlined nwn2... 'least compared to game envisioned earlier this year. they got more content back in game 'cause of extended release date, but this is still a largely stripped down release... and there ain't no excuse for that.

 

some of the joinable npcs also seemed to have needed a little more oven time before they got served for public consumption. many of the joinables appeared to have more to say, but never actually did so. too bad.

 

this game also gots a host of technical and gameplay issues that drives us nuts. nwn2 inventory management were no doubt designed by some cold war era soviet burecrat... make as tedious, time consuming, and frustrating as possible were the goal? cogratufreakinglations to obsidian. also, while we get that auto-ressurect were deemed necessary for plot advancement, it seriously detracts from the otherwise huge improvement in tactical sophistication that we gots 'tween nwn and nwn2. (example: first time we fights a nwn2 dragon we got slaughtered... badly. second time we won, but only 1 party member survived, which in previous games woulda' pretty much demanded a reload, 'less we were lucky 'nuff to have the cleric be the survivor.) oh, and crafting w/o cost is as broken as were similar crafting in kotor2... when every party member can be armed with +3 (or better) adamantine flaming or shocking weapons by time you hit 12th level in a d&d game, then something is wrong. book o' instructions for making holy weapons we found 'round level 15... at which point it woulda' been pointless to continue game if we had bothered to use.

 

but the stuff we mentions above is not the kinda stuff we sees as reasoning for killing nwn2 in reviews. we sees bugginess mentioned and we sees comparisons to oblivion. heck, we seen one reviewer who slammed nwn2 for story had seemed okie dokie with oblivion story-telling. huh?

 

did oblivion have more tangential sidequest stuff than did nwn2? sure. nwn had more tangential side-quests too... makes people use the "non-linear" bs. but what folks seems to forget is just how boring the critical path were in nwn and oblivion. and whereas nwn at least had charwood and a couple other good tangential sidequests, oblivion were almost complete terrible. so if nwn2 gets killed for lack of sidequests, shouldn't oblivion and nwn have been judged even more harsh 'cause they screwed up the Critical Path? no?

 

compelling characters? name one from oblivion. we can recall patrick stewart and that boromir guy from oblivion... and neither one of them is ever gonna make a Best CRPG NPC list any time soon. the success of oblivion has maybe proved josh right... maybe story is not all that important for a crpg... maybe compelling characters is secondary to providing a big world and loads of loot, but Gromnir not think character development is such a tertiary issue. oblivion woulda' been a far better game if the characters had been written better... nwn would have been better too. nwn2, for all its faults were, for the most part, wee better written than nwn or oblivion.

 

...

 

slam nwn2 if you wish. there is 'nuff legit reasons to do so, but we wonders why on earth these objective and fair reviewers didn't destroy je for linearity or childishly easy combats... or oblivion for terrible story.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited November 30, 2006 by Gromnir

[Dark_Raven]

Grommie is next to awesomeness! Nice read even though it was a pretty long post.

[Gromnir]

btw, while it has become popular to hate d&d of late, it is patently obvious to Gromnir that to come up with the ruleset for oblivion, the bethesda guys guys didn't get much help from seasoned rpg game developers. if Gromnir were 13 again, and we wanted to build our first rules system and we wanted to make it real kewl with lots of "boss" powers and freedom and "stuff," well then, we might have been able to come up with oblivion rules... if we were drunk at the time.

 

is so many balance concerns and counter-intuitve results that we cannot figure out how anybody could sneer at d&d but welcome oblivion's attempt. d&d is broken in many ways, but it sure as hell ain't any worse than oblivion's wacky rules. reviewers who congratulate bethesda's efforts, but criticize obsidian for using tired old d&d shoulds be ashamed of selves. Gromnir is no big fan of d&d, but je and oblivion didn't exactly come up with a better mousetrap by any stretch o' the imagination.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[aVENGER]

we has seen reviews at sci-fi.com and 1-up that seemed to really be trying hard to dislike nwn2...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Apparently, the guy who did the sci-fi review is the same guy who did the first (now removed) 1up review. His name is Matt Peckham and as far as I can tell, he mostly seems to dislike NWN2 for actually being a D&D game, which it claims to be, and not an Oblivion clone.

[Spider]

(example: first time we fights a nwn2 dragon we got slaughtered... badly.  second time we won, but only 1 party member survived, which in previous games woulda' pretty much demanded a reload, 'less we were lucky 'nuff to have the cleric be the survivor.)

 

Actually, that is one of the best arguments for the NWN2 system I've heard. The hole concept of reloading after winning a fight seems a bit bizarre if you ask me.

 

As for crafting being broken, I think you're vastly exaggerating the importance of it all. While the weapons you make are better than most you find, the impact on game difficulty is marginal at best. First playthrough I only crafted weapons for my main character and nothing else and it wasn't significantly harder than the second time where I crafted more. Holy is hardly broken compared to elemental damage and personally I thought adamantine was worse for crafting purposes than cold iron or alchemical silver. An extra enchantment is worth more than the adamantine bits.

 

In my opinion the crafting system is far from broken. Does it make your character more powerful? Yeah, a little (but seriously, another +2 to hit and maybe +1d6 damage for a level 20 character is almost insignificant). Does it make the game easier? Hardly.

 

Oh, and another thing. Your BG to BG2 analogy is somewhat off. There are people who enjoy BG1 over BG2 not because the see it through rose colored glasses but because they prefer the vastness and illusion of freedom over the cram every area fulll aproach of BG2. The engine used in BG2 is vastly superior, but from a design perspective it's debatable which is the better game. I play both roughly once per year using the BG2 engine (tutu) and for me both are roughly the same in quality, but for different reasons.

[Slowtrain]

btw, while it has become popular to hate d&d of late, it is patently obvious to Gromnir that to come up with the ruleset for oblivion, the bethesda guys guys didn't get much help from seasoned rpg game developers.  if Gromnir were 13 again, and we wanted to build our first rules system and we wanted to make it real kewl with lots of "boss" powers and freedom and "stuff,"  well then, we might have been able to come up with oblivion rules... if we were drunk at the time.

 

is so many balance concerns and counter-intuitve results that we cannot figure out how anybody could sneer at d&d but welcome oblivion's attempt.  d&d is broken in many ways, but it sure as hell ain't any worse than oblivion's wacky rules.  reviewers who congratulate bethesda's efforts, but criticize obsidian for using tired old d&d shoulds be ashamed of selves.  Gromnir is no big fan of d&d, but je and oblivion didn't exactly come up with a better mousetrap by any stretch o' the imagination.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oblivion's character skill creation and development was a disaster. A joke. Designed by people who are afraid that ADD teenagers won't be able to stay interested long enough to recommend the game to their friends. No question.

 

However, D&D in all its incarnations is so dead and dried out that's like a stuffed moose hanging over the fireplace. How many ****ing times can I take magic missile as my first level spell before I'm grotesquely bored with the whole process. Sure D&D isn't a great CRPG ruleset, actually its pretty poor without a live DM to make it work. But its biggest problem for me is that its simply overdone. I don't have much motivation to spend money on another one more time here we go again D&D crpg anymore.

 

For the kids its still fresh though, so good on them.

 

Oblivion may not be good, from a rules perspective, but at least its not something I've played thirty times already. And, like I said, D&D ain't real good either in a crpg setting either, so its not like we are comparing genius to idiocy

[Volourn]

"superior, but from a design perspective it's debatable which is the better game"

 

Nah. BG2 is far better in every manage way except having alrge praticall;y empty places. Better defined npcs, superior writing, a more interetsing villian, more challenging and tatical battles, more ways to complete quests, etc., etc.

 

I think people (not everyone) who prefer BG1 over BG2 ar eusually exactly as Grom describes. Also, I believe it's simply a case of BG1 being made first, and BG2 being 'more of the same'. The same curse that also strikes other sequels both in games and other entertainment industries like movies and books.

 

 

"How many ****ing times can I take magic missile as my first level spell before I'm grotesquely bored with the whole process."

 

I, for one, NEVER take magic missle as a 1st level wizard. To me, if you are actually aiming for power, magic missle is pratically the most useless first level offensive spell you can select. Doesn't really become that useful until the 3rd missle comes into play.

[Deraldin]

"How many ****ing times can I take magic missile as my first level spell before I'm grotesquely bored with the whole process."

 

I, for one, NEVER take magic missle as a 1st level wizard. To me, if you are actually aiming for power, magic missle is pratically the most useless first level offensive spell you can select. Doesn't really become that useful until the 3rd missle comes into play.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't think I've used Magic Missle more than once in Neverwinter Nights 2. I just find that I've usually killed the enemy before the missles manage to reach the target. They just take so long to reach the enemy that I don't bother with it.

[Gromnir]

"The engine used in BG2 is vastly superior, but from a design perspective it's debatable which is the better game. I play both roughly once per year using the BG2 engine (tutu) and for me both are roughly the same in quality, but for different reasons."

 

am gonna have to disagree with you here. bg 1 were nowhere near the game bg2 were. story and character development and settings and critters and everything else in bg2 were simply... better, but this is an old argument, and the True Fans will never be able to see clear with the glory o' bg blinding 'em.

 

and as any serious pnp d&d player, at mid to higher levels, the equipment Makes the character. is one of the flaws of d&d.

 

oh, and surviving a fight and win a fight is not the same thing, not in a party based game. in pnp if you survive at cost of have all your party mates wiped out and most potions/scrolls used, then you lost the battle for all intents and purposes. if cost of victory is too high, then you lost.

 

"Oblivion may not be good, from a rules perspective, but at least its not something I've played thirty times already. And, like I said, D&D ain't real good either in a crpg setting either, so its not like we are comparing genius to idiocy"

 

lord knows we ain't a defender of the wotc faith. Gromnir is not a fan of d&d and the way it has evolved recently. that being said, change for its own sake don't impress us neither.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 1, 2006 by Gromnir

[Volourn]

For a 'non fan' you sure play a lot of D&D games. :crazy:

[Dark_Raven]

I, for one, NEVER take magic missle as a 1st level wizard. To me, if you are actually aiming for power, magic missle is pratically the most useless first level offensive spell you can select. Doesn't really become that useful until the 3rd missle comes into play.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well you should. Its the best low level spell EVAR!

[Gromnir]

For a 'non fan' you sure play a lot of D&D games.     :crazy:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

we play crpgs. vol may not be aware of this, but more than a few crpgs has been d&d.

 

duh.

 

also, when Gromnir first started playing pnp rpgs, d&d were the only option. then came along games like tunnels and trolls and numerous pretenders. since the early days o' role-play we has played champions and rolemaster and gurps and a dozen other systems you probably not even familiar with.

 

also, vol may not be aware o' this, but pnp is a group activity. not being a fan of d&d hardly prevents Gromnir from enjoying the occasional d&d rp session. as we has stated once or twice before, with role-play the rules is always secondary. our best gaming group ever were actually played with tunnels and trolls, which were a terrible system.

 

we give far too much time and consideration to vol's recent comments. blather on if you must, but please try to raise level o' your nonsense so Gromnir and others not have to endure such silliness. 'least throw in a joke or two so we get some entertainment value from having to endure vol's brain farts come-to-life in post form.

 

am thanksing you in advance for the future consideration.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

we has seen reviews at sci-fi.com and 1-up that seemed to really be trying hard to dislike nwn2...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Apparently, the guy who did the sci-fi review is the same guy who did the first (now removed) 1up review. His name is Matt Peckham and as far as I can tell, he mostly seems to dislike NWN2 for actually being a D&D game, which it claims to be, and not an Oblivion clone.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

thanks for the info. we didn't even bother looking at the reviewer's name. that being said, the current 1-up review ain't much better than the original. mr. green seemed to think that nwn2 were a pretty nice game, but found so unplayable 'cause of bugs... which makes us wonder if he played the original nwn. now THAT were a game with some serious stability issues. nwn were the last game we bought day 1, and for good reason(s.) didn't stop green and cgw from making nwn an editor's choice selection.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 1, 2006 by Gromnir

[Weiser_Cain]

My main problem with NWN2 is that it' doesn't feel like sequel as it drops a lot of content from the first game.

Where are my whips? Where are my epic levels? Time Stop?

I'm also disappointed it didn't go where I wanted it to go. No mounts, Z-axis, romance options (that

[Volourn]

"we play crpgs. vol may not be aware of this, but more than a few crpgs has been d&d.

 

duh.

 

also, when Gromnir first started playing pnp rpgs, d&d were the only option. then came along games like tunnels and trolls and numerous pretenders. since the early days o' role-play we has played champions and rolemaster and gurps and a dozen other systems you probably not even familiar with.

 

also, vol may not be aware o' this, but pnp is a group activity. not being a fan of d&d hardly prevents Gromnir from enjoying the occasional d&d rp session. as we has stated once or twice before, with role-play the rules is always secondary. our best gaming group ever were actually played with tunnels and trolls, which were a terrible system.

 

we give far too much time and consideration to vol's recent comments. blather on if you must, but please try to raise level o' your nonsense so Gromnir and others not have to endure such silliness. 'least throw in a joke or two so we get some entertainment value from having to endure vol's brain farts come-to-life in post form.

 

am thanksing you in advance for the future consideration."

 

Why write gibberish, and no, I don't mean the 'we' stuff. That's cool. I mean the actual gibberish. What you blabbin' on about?

 

I know D&D is a group activity. So are many other things. Try one of those group activities if it's a group ye seek.

 

And, espicially since 99.9% of D&D video games are *not* group activities; your point still not found.

[kormesios]

My main problem with NWN2 is that it' doesn't feel like sequel as it drops a lot of content from the first game.

Where are my whips? Where are my epic levels? Time Stop?

I'm also disappointed it didn't go where I wanted it to go. No mounts, Z-axis, romance options (that

[Volourn]

"Things like epic level spells weren't in the original, or even the first expansion IIRC. I didn't think Time Stop was in the original either, but I can't say I played enough to notice.

 

There are certainly reasons to criticize NWN2--romances, for example, if that's important to you--but many of the complaints stem from it not supporting every option from NWN after 5 years of patching and two major (and non-free) expansions."

 

Tough. It's a sequel. I think his expectations are fair.

[jaguars4ever]

Ah FFS!

 

 

I've just finished Jerro's Haven and it turns out I've lost Sandra.

 

Only problem is because she was the only party member I couldn't take out (and because of the lack of a universal inventory management system) I stored all my weapons, armor & stuff with her in magic bags and whatnot.

 

 

Am I going to get a chance to go back and loot my stuff or do I have to re-load. <_<

 

 

This kind of crap is so typical - every time I pick an NPC for a pack-mule they freakin' die on me!

 

[Deraldin]

Check Ammon Jerro's Inventory.

[jaguars4ever]

(w00t)

[Spider]

"superior, but from a design perspective it's debatable which is the better game"

 

Nah. BG2 is far better in every manage way except having alrge praticall;y empty places. Better defined npcs, superior writing, a more interetsing villian, more challenging and tatical battles, more ways to complete quests, etc., etc.

 

I thought that Irenicus was a much worse villain than Sarevok. To me he was always the weakest point of the game. He is as flat as yesterday's coke left sitting out all night. I never really cared about him. First playthrough I cared about finding Imoen and was obviously pissed at him for taking her, but never really cared about the character itself.

 

But that's not the point really. I'm not denying that a lot of the things in BG2 are better. However, I do find that the everything-and-the-kitchen-sink approach that that game was used during it's design makes the individual parts be better than the whole. I think BG1 is tighter and has a more natural progression to it. And I think the atmosphere in that game is better. Like I said, I think they're both equally good (if we overlook the engine part) but for different reasons. All I can say is that playing through them now, BG1 is more consistent (except for the Firewine Bridge area, that one truly sucks) while BG2 has higher highs, but also deeper lows.

 

and as any serious pnp d&d player, at mid to higher levels, the equipment Makes the character. is one of the flaws of d&d.

 

Yeah, but if we're only looking at the hard stats they really don't make that much difference. The best you can get in the way of weapons is a Cold Iron +5 weapon with two types of elemental damage tacked on (or one plus holy, although then you need to be a cleric yourself I think, unless Elanee has Bless? Zhjaeve isn't good so she can't do it iirc). At level 20 that's not really very impressing, compared to what you can already find in the game. Sure it makes you a little better, but +3 or +5 to hit hardly matters when you never miss anyway.

 

Like I said, your character gets more powerful, but it doesn't really make the game any easier (especially not the +3 stuff you can do at level 12 since there are plenty of weapons of that quality in the game that are as good or better than any +3 weapons you can make yourself).

 

oh, and surviving a fight and win a fight is not the same thing, not in a party based game.  in pnp if you survive at cost of have all your party mates wiped out and most potions/scrolls used,  then you lost the battle for all intents and purposes.  if cost of victory is too high, then you lost.

 

Computer games and PnP are not the same. In a lot of stuff that don't matter in crpgs are relevant and vice versa. So what works in one doesn't always translate well. I think that autores is fine simply because it decreases the amount of reloading I am forced to do and allows me to get on with the game. Granted I would have preferred somewhat tougher fights as a result.