Mr. Sawyer Owns Us All With NWN2!!!

[Volourn]

HAHA!

 

Anyways, Grom's doomsaying aside, NWN2 won't be perfect (what game is?); but I expect it to be a fun game nontheless.

[Morgoth]

I don't think NWN2 will fail just because Sawyer's the lead designer. I mean from what I gather, he has "just" done rules and interface stuff, but the meat of dialogs and roleplaying is done by no other than MMCATA!!!! (that's Mighty Mister Chris Avellone The Awesome!).

[deganawida]

Taks: 8 years? I don't think I've been on the internet that long. I believe I came on just before BG2 came out in 2000, IIRC.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good ol' King Volourn. *sigh* Those were the days.

[Morgoth]

I'm now participating this degenerated bunch a little over 4 years now, and I'm still as pure and gentle as I always was!

 

*faaaaaaart*

 

Oh sorry about that. :">

[Volourn]

"but the meat of dialogs and roleplaying is done by no other than MMCATA!!!! "

 

I believe MCA focused mainly on the joinable npcs. The other writing like the main story was done by others, I believe though I'm sure as a boss MCA had say on it.

 

 

"Good ol' King Volourn. *sigh* Those were the days."

 

Heh. King Volourn only existed during the time of my wars with the overseer/Mr. Sawyer when I got banned after literally begging to be.

[taks]

I don't think NWN2 will fail just because Sawyer's the lead designer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

grom's not saying NWN2 will fail because of sawyer (he's not even saying it will fail). he's simply saying that any problems that crop up with NWN2 will likely land on sawyer's shoulders due to the curse.

 

taks

[Morgoth]

So and what's new about that?

[J.E. Sawyer]

I actually do think the game is fun and I really do think the game does have some problems that will need to be addressed in a patch/some patches. There's also stuff in the game that I wouldn't have done, but that I don't find too objectionable (like forcing certain CNPCs into your party in some areas).

 

At a very low level, there's engine "stuff" I don't like that goes way, way back to Bio's original engine that runs from game logic through data formats. The only way to really address those would be to thoroughly gut all of those subsystems and re-write them. That was one of the big foci of IWD2. It wasn't really the focus of NWN2. Then again, I think a lot of people will probably enjoy NWN2 a lot more than IWD2 because most people don't care that much details of rule implementation and data limitations.

 

that being said, josh does interact with community far more than does any other bis/obsidian developer.  more important, josh gives feedback that is actually meaningful.  lose temper on occasion?  fine.  adds a little flavor to community goulash... am s'posing that josh gets to be the hungarian paprika.

My grandfather loved making Hungarian goulash. Probably because he was Donauschwaben.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

I actually do think the game is fun and I really do think the game does have some problems that will need to be addressed in a patch/some patches.  There's also stuff in the game that I wouldn't have done, but that I don't find too objectionable (like forcing certain CNPCs into your party in some areas).

 

At a very low level, there's engine "stuff" I don't like that goes way, way back to Bio's original engine that runs from game logic through data formats.  The only way to really address those would be to thoroughly gut all of those subsystems and re-write them.  That was one of the big foci of IWD2.  It wasn't really the focus of NWN2.  Then again, I think a lot of people will probably enjoy NWN2 a lot more than IWD2 because most people don't care that much details of rule implementation and data limitations.

 

that being said, josh does interact with community far more than does any other bis/obsidian developer.  more important, josh gives feedback that is actually meaningful.  lose temper on occasion?  fine.  adds a little flavor to community goulash... am s'posing that josh gets to be the hungarian paprika.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My grandfather loved making Hungarian goulash. Probably because he was Donauschwaben.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I understand that NDA's and such may make you unable to talk about technology on that level, but I am certainly curious about the things you disliked about the logic and data formats, or anything else,. Why such changes would be made, what would be gained from the changes etc...

 

Being a coder and a developer I've always found that designers don't grasp coding fully and why things are done the way they are done, this no way implies that you don't.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Here are a couple of examples:

 

* Very few effects are tagged with a bonus "type" in line with 3E/3.5 conventions. E.g.: enhancement bonuses vs. morale bonuses vs. size bonuses. There's also no central stacking logic in place to handle that stuff even if the data were present and marked properly. This is why stacking seems so confusing and/or broken at times in the engine. Identical bonuses usually won't stack with each other, but that's sometimes handled in script as opposed to code. E.g.: bull's strength won't stack with another bull's strength, but bull's strength would stack with a belt of giant strength (used to, anyway).

 

Revising and centralizing the stacking logic and associating all effects with bonus types would allow for finer control over general balance.

 

* The primary method for defining basic spell data is done in spells.2da. This is an extraordinarily large array of data covering all spells for all classes/special abilities that aren't hard-coded. There are a number of columns in spells.2da that define what level the spell is for a certain class: bard, cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, sorcerer/wizard, and (I think) warlock. These columns are all accounted for in code as well, meaning that you can't simply create new spell lists for new base or prestige classes. This is why, for instance, blackguards and assassins don't have their own spell lists.

 

One could revise this data structure so spell lists were external .2das referenced by classes.2da, bypassing the definitions in spells.2da entirely. The code would reference whatever classes.2da gave to it for a spell list .2da, allowing for virtually infinite custom spell lists on a per-class basis. The only loss would be the ability to see, at a glance, all of the classes that had access to a given spell. But really, when you can open multiple .2das at once in Excel and search between them, that's not a significant negative.

 

What the hell is Sawyers avatar? It looks like a woman with a spine coming out of her chest.

It's Joanna Newsom tuning her harp before a show.

 

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

Here are a couple of examples:

 

* Very few effects are tagged with a bonus "type" in line with 3E/3.5 conventions.  E.g.: enhancement bonuses vs. morale bonuses vs. size bonuses.  There's also no central stacking logic in place to handle that stuff even if the data were present and marked properly.  This is why stacking seems so confusing and/or broken at times in the engine.  Identical bonuses usually won't stack with each other, but that's sometimes handled in script as opposed to code.  E.g.: bull's strength won't stack with another bull's strength, but bull's strength would stack with a belt of giant strength (used to, anyway).

 

Revising and centralizing the stacking logic and associating all effects with bonus types would allow for finer control over general balance.

 

* The primary method for defining basic spell data is done in spells.2da.  This is an extraordinarily large array of data covering all spells for all classes/special abilities that aren't hard-coded.  There are a number of columns in spells.2da that define what level the spell is for a certain class: bard, cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, sorcerer/wizard, and (I think) warlock.  These columns are all accounted for in code as well, meaning that you can't simply create new spell lists for new base or prestige classes.  This is why, for instance, blackguards and assassins don't have their own spell lists.

 

One could revise this data structure so spell lists were external .2das referenced by classes.2da, bypassing the definitions in spells.2da entirely.  The code would reference whatever classes.2da gave to it for a spell list .2da, allowing for virtually infinite custom spell lists on a per-class basis.  The only loss would be the ability to see, at a glance, all of the classes that had access to a given spell.  But really, when you can open multiple .2das at once in Excel and search between them, that's not a significant negative.

 

What the hell is Sawyers avatar? It looks like a woman with a spine coming out of her chest.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's Joanna Newsom tuning her harp before a show.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks for that Josh, that's rather interesting.

 

These appear to be issues that cropped up due to the fact that naturally you've spent a hell of alot of time scripting with the engine, adding content etc...

 

When Obsidian first announced NWN2, I actually suggested that a tool be created to help manage .2da, perhaps along with some integration with the editor, this is naturally a headache from a coders POV. I suppose that a .2da editor could deal with files in the manner of seperating them out into a structure, like you've spoken of, and then basically output a larger .2da, as a tool for designers that would most likely have been extremely useful, and perhaps the modding community would also find use in that...

 

Anyways thanks for the feedback, you've given me an idea!

Edited October 12, 2006 by @\NightandtheShape/@

[Gfted1]

What the hell is Sawyers avatar? It looks like a woman with a spine coming out of her chest.

It's Joanna Newsom tuning her harp before a show.

 

 

 

Ah, thanks. Id been wondering about that for a long time.

[roshan]

What are these issues that need to be addressed by pathches? Do they relate to the official campaign or to other aspects of the game? Are they bugs? Unbalanced gameplay? Or just ****ty design for some areas? If its bad design then what exactly are the problems with the way that these areas have been designed?

[J.E. Sawyer]

What are these issues that need to be addressed by pathches? Do they relate to the official campaign or to other aspects of the game? Are they bugs? Unbalanced gameplay? Or just ****ty design for some areas? If its bad design then what exactly are the problems with the way that these areas have been designed?

Camera and movement controls, which are notoriously difficult to tune to the satisfaction of a wide assortment of players. There are some genuine balance bugs, but we've noticed a lot of those already. D&D has a lot of ROOLZ, so there's a lot of stuff that can be broken/poorly balanced/wrong. The toolset also needs some fixes simply for ease of use, which has been a big complaint for many people.

[Pop]

I think the project is in good hands NWN2 will not suffer for Mr. Sawyer's patronage. What I think Gromnir was trying to say (that if there are problems they'll be unfairly heaped on Sawyer?) is valid, but it's nothing to worry about right now.

 

I'd also like to thank Mr. Sawyer for being around and interacting with the native fauna. Without him I'd be ****in' nowhere in my Fallout game :D

 

I'll be interested to see how this new project he's working on is, and how it turns out. But that's awhile off I guess.

[Jorian Drake]

I actually do think the game is fun and I really do think the game does have some problems that will need to be addressed in a patch/some patches.  There's also stuff in the game that I wouldn't have done, but that I don't find too objectionable (like forcing certain CNPCs into your party in some areas).

 

At a very low level, there's engine "stuff" I don't like that goes way, way back to Bio's original engine that runs from game logic through data formats.  The only way to really address those would be to thoroughly gut all of those subsystems and re-write them.  That was one of the big foci of IWD2.  It wasn't really the focus of NWN2.  Then again, I think a lot of people will probably enjoy NWN2 a lot more than IWD2 because most people don't care that much details of rule implementation and data limitations.

 

that being said, josh does interact with community far more than does any other bis/obsidian developer.  more important, josh gives feedback that is actually meaningful.  lose temper on occasion?  fine.  adds a little flavor to community goulash... am s'posing that josh gets to be the hungarian paprika.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My grandfather loved making Hungarian goulash. Probably because he was Donauschwaben.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hmmm...I'm getting hungry again, gonna eat some goulash out of the frig

 

....so, are you a part hungarian too?

[Meshugger]

What are these issues that need to be addressed by pathches? Do they relate to the official campaign or to other aspects of the game? Are they bugs? Unbalanced gameplay? Or just ****ty design for some areas? If its bad design then what exactly are the problems with the way that these areas have been designed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Camera and movement controls, which are notoriously difficult to tune to the satisfaction of a wide assortment of players. There are some genuine balance bugs, but we've noticed a lot of those already. D&D has a lot of ROOLZ, so there's a lot of stuff that can be broken/poorly balanced/wrong. The toolset also needs some fixes simply for ease of use, which has been a big complaint for many people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your honesty is appriciated. Thank you.

[Dark_Raven]

HAHA!

 

Anyways, Grom's doomsaying aside,  NWN2 won't be perfect (what game is?); but I expect it to be a fun game nontheless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes it will be fun. Grommie is just a silly old man.

[Slowtrain]

JE's frankness is always appreciated. Its quite rare.

[Darque]

Agreed.

[Dark_Raven]

  Then again, I think a lot of people will probably enjoy NWN2 a lot more than IWD2 because most people don't care that much details of rule implementation and data limitations.

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think we have someone here who would care greatly about proper rule implementation. He's rule crazy.

[Volourn]

No one counts Visc though.... :ph34r:

[Dark_Raven]

No one counts Visc though.... :ph34r:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is that who I was refering to? :ph34r:

[Sargallath Abraxium]

...I really hates that word "patches"...makes me sad I already preordered the LE...

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[J.E. Sawyer]

Hmmm...I'm getting hungry again, gonna eat some goulash out of the frig 

 

....so, are you a part hungarian too? 

It's a difficult question to answer. My great-grandfather came to the United States from Hungary, but the family was entirely descended from Donauschwaben migrants coming out of Baden-W