Oblivion First Impressions

[Cantousent]

but perhaps we did not give the game a fair chance.  for those who has played oblivion all the way through, will any of the oblivion characters makes your personal Best NPC Ever list?

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I really did like my predecessor, Traven. However, no. The only memorable NPC experiences are the ones you imagine for yourself while in the dialogue. I'm sorry to all the other folks who've really enjoyed the game, but fair is fair. The NPCs and dialogue just plain suck. Now, some of the quests I did later in the game were really, really cool. The final quest before I took on the position of Arch-Mage was quite good. ...But even that entailed me to imagine some of the scene.

 

The fact is, while it's not unreasonable to assume that the player bring a little imagination to the table, it would have been far better if Oblivion had something better to offer folks who focus more on writing or combat. It's ridiculous to think that folks like Gromnir and Llyranor don't have sufficient imagination to enjoy the game. There's no doubt they do. The problem is that, for their tastes, the game doesn't provide enough incentive to invest imagination. That's not the player's fault.

[metadigital]

While combat is probably the same (magic wielding notwithstanding), actually aiming your character with the WASD keys requires a certain degree of ... err ... oblique out-of-body visualization projected onto the PC ... or something ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's quite easy, actually. Just requires a bit of hand-eye coordination. "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why you young whippersnapper! I was dodging alien invaders before you were born! Now, where did I put my dentures ... memory's not what it used to be ... <_<

[LoneWolf16]

Why you young whippersnapper! I was dodging alien invaders before you were born!  Now, where did I put my dentures ... memory's not what it used to be ... <_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here's a tip ya old coot.

 

Focus more on moving the mouse in the direction you want to go, the movement keys are there primarily for strafing and forward movement (Also retreat...lots of retreat.). Best advice there is: Keep messing around with it until you get comfortable...meaning, just walk to an empty field of grass and practice moving, dodging, blocking, attacking, etc. May look silly, but it does help. Experiment until you're satisfied, or charge in and beat on things 'till they die.

[metadigital]

I have already used a wolf as a de facto block trainer ... "

[Llyranor]

Did metadigital just admit to being Hades' alt?

[Llyranor]

we thinks you take the "memorable" aspect too literal.  memorable carries with it an element o' being worthy of remembrance... is a qualitative aspect.  this is why we phrased our query thusly:

 

"for those who has played oblivion all the way through, will any of the oblivion characters makes your personal Best NPC Ever list?"

 

for instance, we will have a hard time forgetting the terrible dialogue that patrick stewart had to vomit forth with his character, but he sure as heck not gonna make our list o' favorite npcs any time soon. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did take it a bit too literally, but I must still be easy to please then...my fav. NPC list is probably huge by now.

 

And his dialogue was awkward, to be sure, but wasn't what I'd call "terrible". There's a fine line between mediocre and "terrible". Bethesda tends to walk this line often...but they always make sure to inch their way back toward the former.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In a professional product, that fine line doesn't really matter.

[LoneWolf16]

Touche'

[Llyranor]

Well, come to think of it, I guess this guy was memorable http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1216213971004625060

[mkreku]

I finally finished the main quest in Oblivion today, and aside from Martin Septim, I won't remember any NPC from the game. Sad, but true. Still, I've had an awesome time with the game and I will continue playing my level 46 character (must see what the mage guild is about, after all) even after the end, so I guess some games do quite well without great and memorable characters.

[Jast]

Well, come to think of it, I guess this guy was memorable http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1216213971004625060

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You know, I saved that guy in the video by running around him and past the trap. I expected him to just keep on leading me forward after I talked to him, but it seems if he doesn't die on the trap, he just stands in one spot forever, and the quest doesn't update. To make it worse, when you talk to him, all he has is one topic; rumors.

Edited April 8, 2006 by Jast

[Gromnir]

"so I guess some games do quite well without great and memorable characters."

 

is no doubt about that. diablo is a good example. is all 'bout the addictive gameplay, right? diablo were 'bout as succesful as a pc game could be getting at the time.

 

'course, Gromnir never really liked diablo. we got tired of playing pac-man in the early 80s, but blizzard brought it back for us in the 90s... run 'round a maze, occasionally powering up... not much of a story 'less you imagine one.

 

*shrug*

 

regardless, pac-man and diablo were very popular games... no question 'bout that. very good games... just not our cup' o' kool-aid.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Vic]

I've finished the game and can't recall a single remotely memorable character.

 

Except for Boromir, for the mere fact that he was Boromir. Anyone else would have been irrelevant.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't think the Elder Scrolls games really lend themselves to having amazing characters or dialogue. They've always been about big, sprawling worlds to explore and do many, many (usually mediocre, sometimes stellar) quests over a irregular size of a game world. And they've always been about unlinearity of doing anything at any time, while not being unlinear in quests and choices within (as I've seen complaints regarding this).

 

That's why I think it will be interesting to see what they do with Fallout besides the technical aspects of the game. I think they could pull of something special if they did a small, focused game (I believe that's how they described it in some interview) that is unlinear in its dialogue, quests, and main quest.

 

And I wonder if that is how they look at it as well; Elder Scrolls being a large, jumbled (but good) game, while being unlinear in exploration. And Fallout being a small, tight, and focused game (quality dialogue with a much, much, much smaller amount of NPCs, quests etc.), while being unlinear in many more ways (paths in quests and dialogue etc.)

 

And if they do look at it that way, I'm guessing for the designers that it must be a breath of fresh air being able to alternate between ES and FO since they are more or less opposites.

 

In any case, it should be interesting.

[StillLife]

And thus, we are presented with one of Bethesda's biggest obstacles in creating a decent Fallout sequel: they suck at making interesting characters. Whether it's been lack of interest in doing so, or simply a lack of ability is the question. Tell them to hire some talented writers there in Bethesda-land before attempting to work on FO3, please ShadowStrider.

 

Shame Obsidian is hogging so many of the good, proven ones. I really hope they don't have Brian Mitsoda working on some shallow, dialogueless, hack & slash.

[Vic]

And thus, we are presented with one of Bethesda's biggest obstacles in creating a decent Fallout sequel:  they suck at making interesting characters.  Whether it's been lack of interest in doing so, or simply a lack of ability is the question.  Tell them to hire some talented writers there in Bethesda-land before attempting to work on FO3, please ShadowStrider. 

 

Shame Obsidian is hogging so many of the good, proven ones.  I really hope they don't have Brian Mitsoda working on some shallow, dialogueless, hack & slash.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wonder if it's just that 'they suck' at making interesting characters, or that with ES there are simply too many to give any real attention to.

 

Hence why I wonder what they can do with a smaller game like Fallout with MUCH fewer NPCs.

[Cantousent]

I think you have a point, Vic. If they just changed the interface, cut or rework the ridiculous mini-game, extend the dialogue, and rein in the mob of NPCs, I think they have a good chance of getting it right. I'm not writing off FO3. I don't want it to be Obsidian in the Fallout universe. I've grown more optimistic after playing Oblivion, but that's because it's apparent that Bethesda can make a great game. What they still haven't proved, however, is that they can make a great Fallout game. For that, we'll have to wait. I'm confident they can do it.

[Gromnir]

And thus, we are presented with one of Bethesda's biggest obstacles in creating a decent Fallout sequel:  they suck at making interesting characters.  Whether it's been lack of interest in doing so, or simply a lack of ability is the question.  Tell them to hire some talented writers there in Bethesda-land before attempting to work on FO3, please ShadowStrider. 

 

Shame Obsidian is hogging so many of the good, proven ones.  I really hope they don't have Brian Mitsoda working on some shallow, dialogueless, hack & slash.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wonder if it's just that 'they suck' at making interesting characters, or that with ES there are simply too many to give any real attention to.

 

Hence why I wonder what they can do with a smaller game like Fallout with MUCH fewer NPCs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

the thing is that in the last couple games by bethesda we gots pretty much 0 evidence that they can write good dialogues and create interesting characters. we concede that with really big games likes morrowind and oblivion the chances are that you is not gonna be able to makes all of your characters compelling, but is that an excuse for making none of them intriguing? we don't think so.

 

honestly consider your argument. Gromnir is 'posed to consider that 'cause we ain't never seen no good characters from bethesda we has reason to hope/believe that they could populate a future game with such characters.

 

...

 

sounds like you is asking for a leap of faith.

 

*shrug*

 

we save our faith for things like God and love and Notre Dame Football. bethesda not yet merit such sacrifice.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Vic]

And thus, we are presented with one of Bethesda's biggest obstacles in creating a decent Fallout sequel:  they suck at making interesting characters.  Whether it's been lack of interest in doing so, or simply a lack of ability is the question.  Tell them to hire some talented writers there in Bethesda-land before attempting to work on FO3, please ShadowStrider. 

 

Shame Obsidian is hogging so many of the good, proven ones.  I really hope they don't have Brian Mitsoda working on some shallow, dialogueless, hack & slash.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wonder if it's just that 'they suck' at making interesting characters, or that with ES there are simply too many to give any real attention to.

 

Hence why I wonder what they can do with a smaller game like Fallout with MUCH fewer NPCs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

sounds like you is asking for a leap of faith.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Funny, sounds like you putting d'words in our mouth brudah. Hah! Good funs!

 

I'm not pleading for your hope, I just said I was curious and it will be interesting.

 

Also, we's (me) haves founded somes indicationses or evidesneses in oblivionses dat dey kahn meke intesting kektas. And we'hads concludeds dat t'er coud beh a reasuhn for noo stellah kektas o' dialogogoes, whet'er it beh tahlent strech'd too thin on lahge quantities, or simplay dat tes not te main draw o' dah game in dah first place. [/stupid]

 

hah! good f- god damn that took way too long... Didn't even come out good either...

 

Sorry, I'll translate that bit. I've had a couple drinks tonight, you must understand.

 

[translation] Also, I've found some indications in Oblivion that they can make interesting characters. Not, "holy jesus it's amazing, or "TOP 5 NPCS O' ALL TAHM, YOU HAVE ENTERED!!!!!!!", but interesting. And I've concluded that there may be a reason as to why there is flimsy dialogue and not many well done NPCs, whether it be that talent is streched too thin on too much of a large quantity of NPCs (I.E. The more NPCs, the less quality each will have), or that it simply isn't a main draw of the series in the first place (I.E. Dialogue and Characters have never been the main draw for the series). [/translation]

Edited April 8, 2006 by Vic

[Dhruin]

I don't think the Elder Scrolls games really lend themselves to having amazing characters or dialogue.

 

I don't quite get this: why don't they lend themselves to interesting characters? I agree with Gromnir it's hard to make them all interesting when there are so many but I can't see why the gameplay is stacked against having any.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Well, for one the dialogue system is not made for you to have any meaningful talks with NPCs. From what Ive seen(without looking at the actual code)

• There is no room for big, branching dialogue trees. You can have at most a "yes" or "no" choice.
  
• You cant tie dialogue options to anything but an NPCs disposition (you cant lie or come up with addditional dialogue choices based on your Int for example)
  
• You cant do a simple thing like insert a variable(the PCs name) into a dialogue.
  

And so on

[Cantousent]

Some options give you a few choices. I think the most I've seen are three. Other than that, I agree. The system doesn't lend itself to meaningful dialogue. I frequently skip it without reading it at all. If it's not interesting to read, I just want to get to the point and go take care of the quest.

[Vic]

I don't think the Elder Scrolls games really lend themselves to having amazing characters or dialogue.

 

I don't quite get this: why don't they lend themselves to interesting characters? I agree with Gromnir it's hard to make them all interesting when there are so many but I can't see why the gameplay is stacked against having any.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Notice how I said 'Amazing characters and dialogue', not 'interesting characters'. I don't agree with gromkins that there are no interesting characters, as I've said.

 

Second, the design philosophy of ES games is what doesn't lend itself to amazing characters and dialogue. Said philosophy being the game world and amount of NPCs and quests being immense. Increasing the number of things in the game will decrease the quality of each.

[Cantousent]

Please don't go vendetta on Gromnir. ...And please don't go vendetta on me for asking.

 

Gromnir really isn't being all that harsh. He's just skeptical over the evidence. He has a point.

 

On the other hand, I actually do have some faith. First of all, as long as they've got someone who can write, good dialogue isn't out of reach. Bethesda has shown they listen to feedback and there are a lot of improvements apparent in Oblivion that respond directly to complaints made about Morrowind. I'm giving Bethesda the benefit of the doubt and assuming that those changes came as a result of player feedback, and so I'm optimistic that they'll fine tune the approach for FO3.

[Vic]

Eh, no vendetta here. I was just explaining myself, and while being a bit pished I was wondering why he types like a pirate talking in third person. I mean no offense.

[Hassat Hunter]

But Bethesda CAN make memoriable characters. Who doesn't remember Fargoth from Morrowind

[Tigranes]

I learned about Fargoth during the Morrowind release / pre-release hype. Then my computer was too crap to run the game, and 2-3 years later when I did play I had forgotten about him. Then I played the game, and forgot about him. Then when Oblivion was hyped I remembered Fargoth since everybody started talking about him.

 

Fargoth's Quest may have been the best scripted in the whole game but the character was still dead. Nobody has any personality at all, and the mages guild especially - the Telvanni actually had the bare beginnings of personality (you can see it now in the design doc: Telvanni 3: Crazy Old W(B)itch), I haven't talked to Traven much yet but Raminus is a robot, Julienne Fanis is a robot, everyone's a robot.