Oblivion GOLD!

[Gabrielle]

The day of rejoice draws near.

[Hurlshort]

I should be picking it up today. I've got a few games set aside to help cover the costs (as trade-ins). I'm not terribly excited because with my schedule, I won't be able to play it much until April.

[Kaftan Barlast]

As for Kaftan, he is becoming as predictable as Hades.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Well, Im going to try Oblivion and if it, against all odds, turn out to be a good game then Ill admit it. Its just that Bethesdas approach to RPGs is almost the direct opposite to what I prefer.

 

 

Going up to an NPC and clicking "sword" instead of being offered dialouge options giving me the ability to actually play out my characters personality is bad game design

[Musopticon?]

"LOL! Werewolf."

 

 

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Going up to an NPC and clicking "sword" instead of being offered dialouge options giving  me the ability to actually play out my characters personality is bad game design

[Musopticon?]

Ahemhem...

 

Sorry for the previous outburst, but I was in stitches halfway through the thread. It was a treat, so thank you guys, no matter if unintentional or not.

 

Anyways, my friend just bought 360, is totally an Oblivion fanboy after having seen that video with the rolling hills and the city in the forest(countdown 5, perhaps?) and I have oh-so-much free time. I wonder what I'll be doing the next two months.

[Gabrielle]

"LOL! Werewolf."

 

 

:lol:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You heard about Hades and his werewolf problem?

[astr0creep]

As for Kaftan, he is becoming as predictable as Hades.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Well, Im going to try Oblivion and if it, against all odds, turn out to be a good game then Ill admit it. Its just that Bethesdas approach to RPGs is almost the direct opposite to what I prefer.

 

 

Going up to an NPC and clicking "sword" instead of being offered dialouge options giving me the ability to actually play out my characters personality is bad game design

[Musopticon?]

I'm still offering that marriage, astroboy. You up for it this time?

[Lyric Suite]

It's not bad game design. It's not what YOU prefer but it's not bad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Just because YOU like it doesn't mean it's good game design.

[213374U]

It's not bad game design. It's not what YOU prefer but it's not bad.

 

Just because YOU like it doesn't mean it's good game design.

He didn't say it's good. Craving for a circular argument, are we? Edited March 20, 2006 by 213374U

[Kaftan Barlast]

I shouldnt have to put a IMO tag after everything I write, of course its just my opinion.

 

 

 

Although one could argue that:

 

IF no players dislike dialogue options

 

BUT some players strongly dislike keywords/wikitalk

 

THEN some players wont like the game UNLESS there is dialogue

 

 

and so by skipping dialogue Bethesda makes it easier for themselves but lose some potential players- which is bad game design.

[Shadowstrider]

Do I really have to point out the glaring holes in your logic, or can I sit back and assume you don't need my help and just want to be argumentative?

[Lyric Suite]

He didn't say it's good.

 

He said it wasn't bad, same thing to me...

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I shouldnt have to put a IMO tag after everything I write, of course its just my opinion.

 

 

 

Although one could argue that:

 

IF no players dislike dialogue options

 

BUT some players strongly dislike keywords/wikitalk

 

THEN some players wont like the game UNLESS there is dialogue

 

 

and so by skipping dialogue Bethesda makes it easier for themselves but lose some potential players- which is bad game design.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How are you actually playing out your characters personality with pre-written dialogue options ?

 

If anything you are playing as close to your characters personality as the dialogue allows. Or you are simply using the written dialogue as a route to a personality which has very little to do with it being your character.

 

Everything you do loses/gains you potential players. Thats just the way it is. Nothing at all to do with bad game design.

[Shadowstrider]

Oblivion isn't the only thing that is GOLD around here.

 

This thread delivers!

[Diogo Ribeiro]

How are you actually playing out your characters personality with pre-written dialogue options ?

 

How are you actually playing out your character's personality with keywords as the only verbal manifestation of any character attitude or personality trait? You may want to argue about how pre-written dialogue lines are not allowing for much character roleplaying as they are few and limited in style and function - which I agree with - but single keywords or topics are worse because they don't even hint at any personality at all. The illusion of choice in regards to roleplaying is heightened by familiar character traits one can ascribe to his or her characters found in these pre-written lines; you want to play the angsty type, there's a dialogue option that enables the character to express himself as such. Want to be just, honor-bound, uphold good? It's there. Maybe relay to others that your character will eat their livers with a nice Chianti and some fava beans? It's there. But what can you convey, character-wise, while choosing generic topics or words? The problem often found in that kind of method, and which was largely noticeable in games like Wizardry 8 and Morrowind, is that choosing topics or keywords will almost always generate a barebones question made by the PC that involves said topics or keywords, which the NPC will react in his or her own way. There's no personality at all in that; no chance to tell the gameworld "hey, this is how my character reacts or feels". At the end of the day, the PC comes off as an empty shell which doesn't manifest beyond goblin smashing or item fetching.

[astr0creep]

I'm still offering that marriage, astroboy. You up for it this time?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well I'm getting married in a month so no. Is a virtual marriage cheating? If not then you offer is interesting.

But the question is, does the keyword "marriage", while facing a beautiful looking NPC, mean that you are asking to marry that NPC or simply asking for information on marriage? Also, does that keyword allow the expression of emotion or does anyone actually give a frak?

 

Hmm. I will ponder and return shortly.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

How are you actually playing out your character's personality with keywords as the only verbal manifestation of any character attitude or personality trait? You may want to argue about how pre-written dialogue lines are not allowing for much character roleplaying as they are few and limited in style and function - which I agree with - but single keywords or topics are worse because they don't even hint at any personality at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you know your character then you dont need hints. Your characters personality will already be clear.

 

There are many instances where you dont get the sort of dialogue option you want.

Which means you have no choice but to break character because that is one of the limits of the dialogue driven system.

 

While keywords give you an objective but not the structure of the dialogue itself. So for example, you can threaten someone. But how you put across that threat is never specifically revealed.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

If you know your character then you dont need hints. Your characters personality will already be clear.

 

Being clear and being expressed are two different things. The problem with pre-written dialogue is that you know how you want to develop your character's personality but can't always express it due to constrains in the limited forms of expression the game presents in that particular field; still, it's possible to eschew a personality type based on how you are allowed to react. On the other hand, with keywoards or topics you know how you want to develop your character but generally you're given no form of expression at all in that field; it's not just about being limited in forms of expressing personality - simply put, there is no hint of personality at all.

 

There are many instances where you dont get the sort of dialogue option you want.

Which means you have no choice but to break character because that is one of the limits of the dialogue driven system.

 

Hence why I said I agreed with you regarding the inherent deficiencies of pre-written dialogue.

 

While keywords give you an objective but not the structure of the dialogue itself. So for example, you can threaten someone. But how you put across that threat is never specifically revealed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Which is exactly why it fails to reveal personality, and to allow you to express it. A character can be persuasive trough charismatic manipulation, brute force, monetary rewards, threats and such. With 'wikitalk', most of the time you're unable to understand how the threat is made; different characters trying to approach a situation in any of the afforementioned ways won't ever feel different at all. What enables you to distinguish the silver tongue of a diplomat between the hamfisted threat of body harm from a barbarian if the threat is never explained, if the character never utters it?

 

I find no merit in that; it leads to the support or advocation of using imagination in lieu of actual structure to the game's dialogue, which barely fits computer roleplaying games; much less roleplaying in computer roleplaying games.

[mkreku]

When you play pen & paper roleplaying games, do you need to have every question you're going to ask written before you on little notes, preferrably written by someone else?

 

 

Edit: Typo.

Edited March 20, 2006 by mkreku

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Being clear and being expressed are two different things. The problem with pre-written dialogue is that you know how you want to develop your character's personality but can't always express it due to constrains in the limited forms of expression the game presents in that particular field; still, it's possible to eschew a personality type based on how you are allowed to react. On the other hand, with keywoards or topics you know how you want to develop your character but generally you're given no form of expression at all in that field; it's not just about being limited in forms of expressing personality - simply put, there is no hint of personality at all.

 

Hence why I said I agreed with you regarding the inherent deficiencies of pre-written dialogue.

 

Which is exactly why it fails to reveal personality, and to allow you to express it. A character can be persuasive trough charismatic manipulation, brute force, monetary rewards, threats and such. With 'wikitalk', most of the time you're unable to understand how the threat is made; different characters trying to approach a situation in any of the afforementioned ways won't ever feel different at all. What enables you to distinguish the silver tongue of a diplomat between the hamfisted threat of body harm from a barbarian if the threat is never explained, if the character never utters it?

 

I find no merit in that; it leads to the support or advocation of using imagination in lieu of actual structure to the game's dialogue, which barely fits computer roleplaying games; much less roleplaying in computer roleplaying games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think dialogue is good when you dont have a very complete picture of the character. That way your not constantly coming up against having to choose the best fit. Rather you can go with the flow to a degree. However when it comes to games with different playable races. The limitations are very apparent.

If on the other hand you have a very complete picture of the character then you those hints are not needed. What is needed, is some way for the character to interact with the rest of the populace which the keyword system allows.

With such a complete character picture pre written dialogue has nothing to offer and in most circumstances will only serve to act as a barrier to expression.

 

If there is to be any sort of evolution. It will be from the keyword side of things. Shaping your own dialogue around specific keywords.

 

If you understand your character. Then you will understand what methods they will use within certain key catagories. The only time that the keywords will be the same is if you dont have a character picture. Of course one of the things about pre written dialogue is having a degree of replayability by choosing a different option. But if you want to choose the same option then the dialogue is the same regardless of the character.

 

Imagination has always been at the core of roleplaying games. I do agree in part though. Since you have people playing CRPGs who have no particular interest in PnP.

[Hurlshort]

I hate keywords, especially if I have to type them in. I don't think it takes away from character development, but it certainly doesn't add to it. I like having a variety of lines to choose from, because I'm not that creative. It's easy character development, just follow the tone you want and allow professional writers to make you sound witty.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

When you play pen & paper roleplaying games, do you need to have every question you're going to ask written before you on little notes, preferrably written by someone else?

 

 

Edit: Typo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not in my experiences. I have used a keyword system though where there is a list of keywords which will trigger a specific response topic for an NPC.

 

Similiar principle to how something like EQ works.

[Llyranor]

Man, Chrono Trigger is the awesomestest RPG ever. The protagonist never speaks, the game just makes decisions on his behalf. I get to apply my full-blown imagination and affect the game in significant and existent ways. That is AWESOME.