Did i just buy a good RPG?

[Magnum Opus]

Like pretty much every other game, this one does things well, and it does things not-so-well.

 

What it does well (ie. character development, NPC interaction, and presenting the weirdness of the setting), it does really well. Torment's got the best (by which I mean "developed"; whether you like them or not is a matter of preference, but they've all got a very unique personality) joinable NPCs of any IE game out there, and there are a couple non-joinable ones that I'd list as my personal favourite in any game I've yet played.

 

What it does poorly (combat, and allowing the character to define their own character beyond the "basic personality level"), it does quite poorly. Some of the spell animations are a right pain in the arse to actually use, since they play an FMV each and every time you cast that spell. Impressive, sure, but completely impractical if you want to cast those spells on a regular basis, or are looking to maintain a certain "flow" to the combat. If I wanted, or had to, fight it up, I always had a book ready when I was playing a mage-heavy character.

 

Whether it's a "good" game as a whole will depend on your personal preferences and how much weight you place on each of those things and how well you think they work together in the whole.

 

Me, I think it's an incredible game in certain of its aspects, but taken as a whole I'd just call it a "good" game. I play cRPGs primarily for the imaginitive, and secondarily for the escapist, elements, and this game had that in spades for me -- conveyed mostly through dialogue, but I had no problem with that.

 

*nods* All in all, I'd call it a "good" game.

 

Deserving of the Worship status some people give it? Probably not, even insofar as it's a just computer game. Certainly not as a whole. But still good. Strange, though. I can't recall another game I've ever played that was like it, so you'll be in for an experience whether you end up liking it or not.

[Ellester]

It allows you to play different versions of The Nameless One, which to me is enough to make it a genuine role-playing experience, more than most RPGs.  It's a great game, no question.

I'm sorry, but to me changing my stats from 16 int, 17 cha to 17 int, 16 cha is NOT a new role or even a new version of The Nameless One. I remember hating having everyone tell me I was so ugly, so I spent all my attribute points in charisma, hoping it would make people change their perception of me. It didn't. No matter what I did they kept calling me ugly and blah blah. The version of The Nameless One (who I would have preferred to give a name if I had a choice) I wanted to play just wasn't possible to play.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Seems odd to be arguing this topic when you are such a Gothic fan. It is the name that makes such a difference between the two pregenerated characters in these games?

[mkreku]

Seems odd to be arguing this topic when you are such a Gothic fan. It is the name that makes such a difference between the two pregenerated characters in these games?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Who said I like the pre-generated character of the Gothic games? You assume too much, because I don't. I do, however, like the pre-gen in Gothic more than the one found in Planescape: Torment, mainly because the pre-gen doesn't have a history. The only thing you ever find out about the character in Gothic is that he must be a criminal since he was thrown in jail. The pre-gen in Planescape: Torment was heavily burdened by the story being about his history and practically nothing else. There was no way to play around it or ignore it, you had to accept the background, your pre-gen and everything that came with it if you were to enjoy Planescape: Torment. I didn't enjoy that.

 

But to answer your question: no, it's not the name. It's the setting, the third (or first) person view, the freedom of the world, the gigantic maps, the real time combat, the enemy AI and the non-linearity. Those are aspects that are important to me. I would have preferred a better story and less linearity (towards the end of the game) but no game is perfect. That goes for Planescape: Torment too.

[Tigranes]

While accepting your background, you are still able to determine what kind of character the current incarnation is. Now, unless you're about to claim that other games with faceless main characters allow you to reconstruct their past in-game to a great degree, the tradeoff isn't exactly gargantuan.

 

Anyway, Curst onwards did suffer from what *looks* like lack of development time. Curst I hoped to find as complex and well-developed as the Hive: apparently not. The back-and-forth with Trias was too short, so there was no real sense of betrayal or indeed anything about him. Also, would have been nice if there were more differences in Sigil once you returned (and there aren't enough shadows ambushing you.)

[roshan]

Planescape Toirment is noithing like final fantasy. It is a trui roiileplaying experience...

I've heard people say this before, but I never quite figured out how to play any other role than that of The Nameless One. I'd actually go so far as to call it an interactive story, not a true RPG.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yoiiui are coinifuising twoi coiimipletely different things. The nameless oine is a CHARACTER, noit a roile. Yoiiui have a set character, hoiwiever, yoiui can assuime the role oif this character and then play this character in whatever way yoiui want, and develoip it in yoiuir oiwn way. That is roiileplaying.

[roshan]

It allows you to play different versions of The Nameless One, which to me is enough to make it a genuine role-playing experience, more than most RPGs.  It's a great game, no question.

I'm sorry, but to me changing my stats from 16 int, 17 cha to 17 int, 16 cha is NOT a new role or even a new version of The Nameless One. I remember hating having everyone tell me I was so ugly, so I spent all my attribute points in charisma, hoping it would make people change their perception of me. It didn't. No matter what I did they kept calling me ugly and blah blah. The version of The Nameless One (who I would have preferred to give a name if I had a choice) I wanted to play just wasn't possible to play.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Charisma is yoiuir aility toi influience oither peoiiple. It is noit hoiw beauitifuil yoiuir character is. OIf coiuirse, beauitifuil peoiple tend toii be able toi influience oithers easily, buit charisma is muich moirie than loioiks.

 

Yoiiuir noiti talking aboiuit roileplaying anymoiirie. Yoiiui are talking aboiuit choioising a different character. The ability toii choioise a different character has absoiiluitely noi coirrelatioini with yoiuir ability toi roileplay the different characters. A goioid example is diabloi 2. Yoiui can choioisie froiimi different classes buit there is noi scoiipe toi roileplay these characters. The same thing with balduirs gate.

 

In toirment, yoiui can boioisit yoiuir intelligence toi increase the nuimber oif dialoiguie oiptioins available and toigether with charisma yoiui can talk yoiuir way oiuit oif several situiatioinis and persuiade peoiple toii doi things yoiuir way. This means yoiui have toi play as the nameless oinie character, hoiwiever yoiui can choioise the role oif a duimb persoiini oir an intelligent oinie. This is uinlike balduirs gate where yoiui have toins oif oiptioins buit yoiuir choiiices have absoiluitely noi impact oini the game and almoiisit all oifi the choiices yoiui are alloiwied toi make are noit suippoirted by the game at all. Yoiui can have a character with 3 intelligence, yet yoiui will get the exact same dialoigiuie oiptioins as a suipergenioiuis. Thuis toiirment alloiwis the actuial roiileplaying of different versioinis oif the nameless oinie character, while oitiher soi called rpgs juist alloiw yoiui toi make arbitrary and meaningless choiices by clicking soiimie buittoins befoiire the game starts while noit alloiwing the roiileplaying oif any oif these characters duiring the game.

[roshan]

Like pretty much every other game, this one does things well, and it does things not-so-well.

 

What it does well (ie. character development, NPC interaction, and presenting the weirdness of the setting), it does really well.  Torment's got the best (by which I mean "developed"; whether you like them or not is a matter of preference, but they've all got a very unique personality) joinable NPCs of any IE game out there, and there are a couple non-joinable ones that I'd list as my personal favourite in any game I've yet played.

 

What it does poorly (combat, and allowing the character to define their own character beyond the "basic personality level"), it does quite poorly.  Some of the spell animations are a right pain in the arse to actually use, since they play an FMV each and every time you cast that spell.  Impressive, sure, but completely impractical if you want to cast those spells on a regular basis, or are looking to maintain a certain "flow" to the combat. If I wanted, or had to, fight it up, I always had a book ready when I was playing a mage-heavy character.

 

Whether it's a "good" game as a whole will depend on your personal preferences and how much weight you place on each of those things and how well you think they work together in the whole.

 

Me, I think it's an incredible game in certain of its aspects, but taken as a whole I'd just call it a "good" game.  I play cRPGs primarily for the imaginitive, and secondarily for the escapist, elements, and this game had that in spades for me -- conveyed mostly through dialogue, but I had no problem with that. 

 

*nods*  All in all, I'd call it a "good" game.

 

Deserving of the Worship status some people give it?  Probably not, even insofar as it's a just computer game.  Certainly not as a whole.  But still good.  Strange, though.  I can't recall another game I've ever played that was like it, so you'll be in for an experience whether you end up liking it or not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There is noitihing wroinig with the coimbat oif planescape toirment. It is the same as the coiimbat in balduirs gate, and it is muich better than the coiimibat oif balduirs gate 2 where yoiui have enemies randoimily instantly killing yoiui in oirider toi add artificial challenges toi the coimibat.

 

Alsoiio yoiui are able toi define moiirie than yoiuir characters persoiiniality, yoiui can define his factioini, alignment, statistics, proificiencies and alsoi class, and these choiices actuially have an impact oin the roileplaying experience uinlike moiisit oither games.

[Musopticon?]

Heh, nothing wrong with combat in Torment? Have you played it recently? It's awkward and unfunctioning.

[roshan]

Heh, nothing wrong with combat in Torment? Have you played it recently? It's awkward and unfunctioning.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What exactly is awkward and uinfuinctioining aboiuit it? Yoiiui click oin an enemy, the nameless oinie attacks. This is the same as all IE games. OIir, yoiui select a spell, click oin the enemy, and cast it. This is alsoi the same as any ie games. Theres noitihing awkward aboiuiti the games coimbat and it fuinctioins perfectly well.

[Volourn]

PST combat was good? Hahahahahhahahaha. It had the worst combat of any IE game including IWD2, and on top of that it was barely any fun.

 

Easy, overall boring, and unimaginative. Killing MILLIONS of rats does not equal fun.

 

Half the joinable npcs were some of the bets ever in any game; the other half are amongst the worst. Sorry, anyone who like Fire Fool, and Tin Can or Cubester needs lots, lots, and lots of help.

 

PST was a good game.

 

That is all.

[Musopticon?]

Heh, nothing wrong with combat in Torment? Have you played it recently? It's awkward and unfunctioning.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What exactly is awkward and uinfuinctioining aboiuit it? Yoiiui click oin an enemy, the nameless oinie attacks. This is the same as all IE games. OIir, yoiui select a spell, click oin the enemy, and cast it. This is alsoi the same as any ie games. Theres noitihing awkward aboiuiti the games coimbat and it fuinctioins perfectly well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Argh, how am I going to argue with a fanboy? This is a fight better left unstarted.

[mkreku]

Yeah, this constant gushing over a good but not great RPG is annoying. And the longer the fanboi in particular has gone since he's last played Planescape: Torment, the better it seems to have become in his mind, and the amount of gushing is directly proportional.

[roshan]

Heh, nothing wrong with combat in Torment? Have you played it recently? It's awkward and unfunctioning.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What exactly is awkward and uinfuinctioining aboiuit it? Yoiiui click oin an enemy, the nameless oinie attacks. This is the same as all IE games. OIir, yoiui select a spell, click oin the enemy, and cast it. This is alsoi the same as any ie games. Theres noitihing awkward aboiuiti the games coimbat and it fuinctioins perfectly well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Argh, how am I going to argue with a fanboy? This is a fight better left unstarted.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Calling soimieoine a fanboiy is juist an easy way oiuit. The fact oif the matter is that the coimbat system uisied by planescape toirment is EXACTLY the same as thoise uised by oitiher IE games.

 

Moiiist peoiple whoi didnt like toiirments coiimbat simply cannoit adjuist toi the fact that they are noit playing an elf wearing chainmail and duial wielding loing swoirds. They then make uip all soirts oif fauilty excuises blaming the coiimibat system oif planescape toirment when in fact the real proiblem is their lack oif ability toii roileplay noin standard fantasy characters in coimibat situiatioinis.

[roshan]

Yeah, this constant gushing over a good but not great RPG is annoying. And the longer the fanboi in particular has gone since he's last played Planescape: Torment, the better it seems to have become in his mind, and the amount of gushing is directly proportional.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am noit guishing, except at the beginning oif this thread where I jested aboiuit woirshipping toiirment etc.

 

I am proividing soiuind arguiments regarding the issuiies that have been broiiuigiht uip. The fact oif the matter is that yoiui are noiti able toii discern between the freedoimi toii choioise what character yoiui want with the ability toi roileplay that character the way yoiui want.

 

And I juist played Toirment aboiuit 6 moiinths agoi, soii it is still quiite fresh in my mind.

[Lord Tingeling]

There is noitihing wroinig with the coimbat oif planescape toirment. It is the same as the coiimbat in balduirs gate, and it is muich better than the coiimibat oif balduirs gate 2 where yoiui have enemies randoimily instantly killing yoiui in oirider toi add artificial challenges toi the coimibat.

 

Uh, right. The "challenge", in this case, would be to cast one or two simple wards before a fight. Instant death spells (disintegrate, FoD, DS, etc) are very seldom used by the enemy. And when they are, a simple death ward will keep them at bay. There are no similar spells for protecting against 20 hp crits in Baldur's Gate 1.

[Kelverin]

I found it at Fry's for $4.50.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You got ripped off . Ha

[Musopticon?]

It's not that.

 

I'll give you an example:

 

Curst Prison was full of guards of the same type. I danced in and started fighting, trying to first soften them with spells such as Desert Hell and Ice&Fire. Well, when Dak finishes the spell, my poor fighters have run to the line of fire and the globes freeze their innards and scorch their bones. At the same time; all the guards use their clever tactic of massing over one character and whacking him till the end of time. Grace the idiot runs to heal the poor bugger and almost gets wasted in the process. I can't cast any spells because all my chracters are i midst of combat and on the other hand all the single-character-targeting spells are worthless. So, my brave party proceeds to do their thing; bash heads in till they reach the floor. And this continues till the freakin' Pillar of Skulls. Nothing but mindless hackin', which is sometimes paused by a flashy spell-effect, breaking the monotone somewhat. Mass destruction spells just lay unsused because each time you found enemies; they rushed you. Yes, I could have used a spotter for bombardments, back then I didn't acknowledge that. Still...

 

I love the game so much, but the combat just irritates me. Even the Trias fight consisted of me quickly standing aside when Dak and Grace used every scroll and spell and item on him. One long standing of cutscenes, you must watch every freakin' time.

 

Edit: Though Meteor Storm Bombardment was nifty.

[roshan]

PST combat was good? Hahahahahhahahaha. It had the worst combat of any IE game including IWD2, and on top of that it was barely any fun.

 

Easy, overall boring, and unimaginative. Killing MILLIONS of rats does not equal fun.

 

Half the joinable npcs were some of the bets ever in any game; the other half are amongst the worst. Sorry, anyone who like Fire Fool, and Tin Can or Cubester needs lots, lots, and lots of help.

 

PST was a good game.

 

That is all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I doiint see why toirments coimibat quialifies as easy buit the oither ie games coiimibat doiesnt. I have played moiist oif the ie games in insane difficuiilty and I have never had toi uise healing poitioins in any oif these games. All the IE games except foir icewind dale 1 had ridicuiloiuisly easy coiimibat, and moisit oif them are repetitive. Foir example in balduirs gate, yoiui kept getting the same encoiiiuinter with the 3 gibberlings foir the first 2 areas oif the game. As foir Toirment, there is oinily 1 duingeoiini level where yoiui fight the craniuim rats, and 3 situiatioins where yoiui fight a few oif them as part oif quiests.

 

I agree that soiimie oif the npcs did in fact lack develoipment(like ignuis and vhailoir)(oir were hardly develoiped at all, in the case oif noirdoim and grace). The last time I played I oinly toioik dakkoin, annah and moiirte. This is a valid criticism uiinlike a loit oif what is unfairly levelled against the game.

[roshan]

There is noitihing wroinig with the coimbat oif planescape toirment. It is the same as the coiimbat in balduirs gate, and it is muich better than the coiimibat oif balduirs gate 2 where yoiui have enemies randoimily instantly killing yoiui in oirider toi add artificial challenges toi the coimibat.

 

Uh, right. The "challenge", in this case, would be to cast one or two simple wards before a fight. Instant death spells (disintegrate, FoD, DS, etc) are very seldom used by the enemy. And when they are, a simple death ward will keep them at bay. There are no similar spells for protecting against 20 hp crits in Baldur's Gate 1.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Truie. And what doi these situiatioins add toi the coimibat except annoiying the players by foiircing them toi reloiaid withoiuit testing their skill in any way??? Noithing.

 

Aside froiimi these situiatioinis with the instant deaths, almoisit all the coimibat situiatioins in balduirs gate 2 can be rezoiilved by casting breach oin the enemy, and then hacking them uip with 2 oir 3 melee characters. Hell, my character soiloied the demoigoirgoin after oinie oif the mage npcs breached him. There is noi challenge whatsoiiever toi the games coimbat.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"There is noitihing wroinig with the coimbat oif planescape toirment. It is the same as the coiimbat in balduirs gate, and it is muich better than the coiimibat oif balduirs gate 2 where yoiui have enemies randoimily instantly killing yoiui in oirider toi add artificial challenges toi the coimibat."

 

Yes there is. It is boring and ridiculously unfun. Whether or not it compares well to other games with ****ty combat is hardly of any consequence.

[Volourn]

"Hell, my character soiloied the demoigoirgoin after oinie oif the mage npcs breached him."

 

You seem to NOT know the defintion of 'soloing' it seems? 'Soloing' is NOt the act of getting someone else to cast a spell at the target then you hacking at it. Don't make things up - it makes everything else you posts with or without many i's to look wrong.

 

And, oh, breaching was one valid tatic in BG series. I, for one, never used breach. Ever.

[Gromnir]

roshan now compares bg2 combat to ps:t?

 

HA!

 

look, Gromnir liked ps:t a great deal... were/is our favorite pc game (regardless as to whether or not it were a crpg,) but ps:t combat were NOT a positive quality and it not have anywhere near the possibilities and complexity o' bg2... not that bg2 were a great combat simulator neither, but to compare to ps:t...

 

like ps:t for what it was... and in spite of its weakness... but pretend that it not have weakness is foolish.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[roshan]

"There is noitihing wroinig with the coimbat oif planescape toirment. It is the same as the coiimbat in balduirs gate, and it is muich better than the coiimibat oif balduirs gate 2 where yoiui have enemies randoimily instantly killing yoiui in oirider toi add artificial challenges toi the coimibat."

 

Yes there is. It is boring and ridiculously unfun. Whether or not it compares well to other games with ****ty combat is hardly of any consequence.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If yoiui think that the IE games in general had ****ty coimibat then I woinit arguie with yoiui. My arguiment is oinily with thoise who claim that the likes of balduirs gate 2 had great coimibat while at the same time claiming the coimibat oif pst suicked.

[roshan]

"Hell, my character soiloied the demoigoirgoin after oinie oif the mage npcs breached him."

 

You seem to NOT know the defintion of 'soloing' it seems? 'Soloing' is NOt the act of getting someone else to cast a spell at the target then you hacking at it. Don't make things up - it makes everything else you posts with or without many i's to look wrong.

 

And, oh, breaching was one valid tatic in BG series. I, for one, never used breach. Ever.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If yoiui didnt uise the best strategies then there is noi poiint in yoiui evaluiaiting the coiimbat oifi balduiirs gate 2.

 

I said soiloied AFTER, I didnt say my character soiloied the character foir the whoile fight. In any case I am noit interested in discuissing the meaing oif soiiloiing.

[roshan]

roshan now compares bg2 combat to ps:t?

 

HA!

 

look, Gromnir liked ps:t a great deal... were/is our favorite pc game (regardless as to whether or not it were a crpg,) but ps:t combat were NOT a positive quality and it not have anywhere near the possibilities and complexity o' bg2... not that bg2 were a great combat simulator neither, but to compare to ps:t...

 

like ps:t for what it was... and in spite of its weakness... but pretend that it not have weakness is foolish.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The coiimibat oif the infinity engine games in general was quiite weak. Balduirs gate 2 had loits oif poissibilities buit yoiui oinily needed toi emploiy 1 strategy toi carry yoiui throiuigh moisit oif the game: casting breach foilloiwed by a melee ruish.