Define "Roleplaying Game"

[alanschu]

The mechanic is to execute the play correctly through twitch mechanics, and that drives success more than stats.  Trust me.  Last year they bumped pass defense seriously.  After throwing 20-25 straight incompletions, I decided to edit my stats up to 99.  I still threw incompletions left and right.  Then I lowed the pass defense rating.  I still threw incompletions.

 

The real key was learning the playbook, getting the timing for each route down, and executing the plays perfectly.

 

I feel very confident saying that the primary mechanic is not stat-based gameplay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

What about NBA Live or the NHL series? Try winning games with a goalie that has an overall of 50. Or even scoring in NBA when your players have a FG rating less than 50.

 

 

What about the fact that I can still consistently defeat way more powerful foes in Morrowind despite having crappier statistics?

[Lancer]

What about the fact that I can still consistently defeat way more powerful foes in Morrowind despite having crappier statistics?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good point. There are RPGs out there that depend as much on the player's raw skill as their character's stats..Morrowind is one. So is Deus Ex to some extent. Gothic is another...

By Ender's definition these might not be RPGs if we are going by "the core mechanism is stat-based gameplay" argument.

 

Or is it ok that stat-based gameplay not be the main driver if it is a hybrid RPG? If you start saying this though then you start breaking all the rules. Especially since all these titles are marketed as RPGs, hybrids and all.

[Judge Hades]

Traditional CRPGs does not require player reflexes and various role play options are based on the character's ability. Hybrids don't have that.

[Plano Skywalker]

What is an RPG? or cRPG as it were?

 

Any answer, of course, would be highly subjective but I will present my take.

 

>>ROLE

alone does not a cRPG make. I really enjoy playing 007: Everything or Nothing on my Xbox. It is very immersive and has a decent storyline. There are, sometimes, different ways to accomplish the same thing. However, this game is an action/adventure and not an RPG. One glaring reason: there is absolutely no user-controlled dialogue.

 

>>DIALOGUE and NON-VIOLENT TACTICS

are usually included in what I would define as a cRPG. If I cannot control (at least to some extent) what I say and cannot employ non-violent tactics, then I am not playing a cRPG, as I would define it.

 

>>STAT-BASED GAME MECHANICS

this is obviously a throw-back to the good old days of p&p D&D but if there is a true cRPG out there that does not have some sort of leveling up, then I haven't seen it yet.

 

so, I guess my core definition of a cRPG would involve 1) the role of a protagonist, 2) significant choices with regard to dialogue and other non-violent tactics and, for all practical purposes, 3) stat-based game mechanics.

 

 

that is the irreducible core. here are some preferred extras:

 

>>CUSTOMIZABILITY

if there is a backstory, I want some say in it....I also like being able

to join factions...really, factions is what makes Morrowind a really good game

I would like to see this implemented in the more linear type games (such as KOTOR)...it would be just enough openendedness to make you forget just how linear the main quest is....also, Morrowind-style training is a nice touch (although it could use some polish)

 

>>ALTERNATE PATHS/ENDINGS

 

>>THREE DIMENSIONAL ALIGNMENT/REPUTATION system

 

>>LOTS OF EASTER EGGS

the ability to get married (a la Pirates!) and have your spouse become your informant...things like can really make a difference

[Lancer]

so, I guess my core definition of a cRPG would involve 1) the role of a protagonist, 2) significant choices with regard to dialogue and other non-violent tactics and, for all practical purposes, 3) stat-based game mechanics.

 

 

that is the irreducible core.  here are some preferred extras:

 

This is true. If I were to define an RPG it would look very similar to this as well. Stat-based mechanics are just one of the defining attributes but not the only one. A careful definition of "roleplaying" as a defining attribute needs to be taken into account as well.

[roshan]

The foiilloiwiing are my requiiirements foir a CRPG:

 

1. stat based gameplay with a noit significant dependence oini player skills

2. muiltiple dialoiguie choiices, quiest soluitioins etc based oin my characters stats

3. the game shoiuild REACT toii what choiices I make

 

If the game doies noit react toi yoiuir choiices and deliver different experiences depending oini what choiice yoiiui make, then there is absoiluiitely noi poiint in having thoise oiptioins in the first place. It is poiintless and is merely a waste oif time.

[Nathaniel Chapman]

Ultimately I think this is a fruitless exercise. I think that everyone has their own definition which speaks more to their personal tastes and ideas than to some sort of Platonic ideal of "ROLEPLAYINGUE GAEMES". I don't think by bouncing our ideas back and forth we'll get closer to what RPGs "really are".

 

However, I think my definition lines up pretty much with Josh's. RPGs should allow me to create an idea of a character as long as my idea makes sense within the context of the game world. They should let me express that character in clear, specific ways by making meaningful choices. They should then respond in a believable, internally consistent manner to those choices. Whether that expression is relatively dynamic and open-ended (like The Sims) or scripted (like KOTOR2 and the BIS games) is simply a matter of taste. They ultimately serve similar functions in my mind.

[EnderAndrew]

They should.... They should.... They should...

 

I merely attempted to clarify that there is a difference between stating what we want the genre to be, or what type of RPGs we enjoy from what the genre is on the whole.

[Kaftan Barlast]

(hooray, another chance to flex my game dev school muscles)

 

 

The common "academic" take on what constituates a CRPG is a game that:

 

A. Focuses on the narrative elements

B. Is stat based

C. Contains a narrative structure that allows the player to in some way influence parts of, or all, of the story.

 

 

There IS no clear definition. But I agree 100% with Sawyers take on this, its what Ive always conisdered RPG to be about

[Plano Skywalker]

A. Focuses on the narrative elements

B. Is stat based

C. Contains a narrative structure that allows the player to in some way influence parts of, or all, of the story.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

that is the core, pretty much. It does not rule out playing a pregen, real-time combat, first-person perspective, including RTS elements or anything else.

[Gromnir]

(hooray, another chance to flex my game dev school muscles)

 

 

The common "academic" take on what constituates a CRPG is a game that:

 

A. Focuses on the narrative elements

B. Is stat based

C. Contains a narrative structure that allows the player to in some way influence parts of, or all, of the story.

 

 

There IS no clear definition. But I agree 100% with Sawyers take on this, its what Ive always conisdered RPG to be about

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

so you disagree with the "common academic take" on the subject... 'cause josh's definition clearly doesn't mesh with it...

 

again, ultimately we not think it matters if you agree with what is and is not ROLE-PLAYING. [define role-play in the crpg context] is a largely pointless endeavor. what is not pointless, from the perspective of those marketing and retail guys that were earlier ignored, is whether or not the crpg term gots a definition that is fixed (enough) in the shared consciousness of gamers such that it can be used to effectively market a game... is the only real value we can see in labeling games as crpgs or in attempting to define crpg.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

edit: stuff in brackets is added/edited.

[Kaftan Barlast]

We're also seeing alot of genre bending and mixing so the definition between different game genres becomes less and less clear. And if everything changes, then theres no point in trying to pin down a definition.

 

..other than to try and sell us crap like Fable, which wasnt a RPG at all, but rather a "generic fantasy hero simulator"

 

 

A game that allows and facilitates the player's ability to establish and express different aspects of a character's personality. Further, these choices of personality expression have different/branching effects on the other characters in the world and upon the state of the world.

 

That is very much points A and C so the academics arent completely wrong. But, as you say, it doesnt matter.

[EnderAndrew]

Except it is wrong.

 

If we go by Sawyer's or Kaftan's definition then 20 years of classic RPGs suddenly aren't RPGs at all, while the entire litany of the classic Adventure genre suddenly becomes RPGs.

 

There is a difference between what you want from an RPG today, and what the genre as a whole truly is.

[alanschu]

I would think that the genre has evolved though.

 

I don't see why it can't.

[EnderAndrew]

The genre can evolve. That is why RPGs today offer branching paths, etc.

 

However the requirement to be considered an RPG does not have to include the more modern counterparts, otherwise the classic RPGs would not be considered RPGs.

[alanschu]

I'm just saying that maybe by today's standards and what people expect in an RPG is not the same as what the older RPGs provided.

 

Maybe we have a new sub-genre...the Classic RPG!

[EnderAndrew]

I'm just saying that maybe by today's standards and what people expect in an RPG is not the same as what the older RPGs provided.

 

Maybe we have a new sub-genre...the Classic RPG!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I understand what you are saying.

 

However what people want and expect out of an RPG today is different from what the definition of the genre is.

 

You could say the standards for a quality RPG today are X, Y and Z for instance and I would agree.

 

However the definition of the RPG genre is broader.

 

I'm just a stickler for semantics.

[EnderAndrew]

Halo 2 made something like 125 million dollars on the very first day it was available for sale. At $50 a pop, that is 2.5 million copies it sold in the very first day alone.

[alanschu]

Halo 2 = huge.

 

Halo was pretty huge too. Not bad for a new IP :D

 

 

(Ok not technically, but I doubt that the huge sales were from people that were familiar with the Macintosh oriented Marathon environment).

[EnderAndrew]

I meant to post that in the Jade Empire thread, and I thought I did.

 

Weird.

[alanschu]

I've had that happen before too. It's very confusing.

[Volourn]

A role-playing game is a game where you play a role.

[EnderAndrew]

I'm not even dignifying that.

[Cantousent]

The word means what it means by common consensus. I trust that consensus more than any individual in this thread.

 

The Might and Magic series is a role-playing game. I respect that some folks want to put forward a particular vision of the role-playing game. As Gromnir says, this sort of endeavor is largely pointless.

 

I don

[Volourn]

"I'm not even dignifying that"

 

You just did. Either way, my statement is very much factual. In fact, it is factually undisputable. A role-playing game - by definition - is a game in which you play a role.

 

Period.