Why twitch gamers suck

[Musopticon?]

Well, one could argue that a wizard could very well slit the opponents throath after a well-aimed sleep spell, but do the rules allow that? :D

[EnderAndrew]

Elves are immune to sleep, and everyone else still has a chance to resist it.

 

Even then, a Wizard is still not guaranteed to get an instant kill on a helpless creature because they are so sad.

[Musopticon?]

Hmm, hooray for D&D.

[Volourn]

Sleep is one spell. And, elves aren't immune to it in 2e though I believe they ar ein 3E. And, yes, characters get saves but warriors and rogues will save sucks. And, in 2E, there wa sno save at all.

 

And,a first level mage cna likely have as good an ac as a 1st level fighter. And, why would a mage have only 4 hit points espicially in 3E? Have you heard of spells like mage armour and shield? Come on, people. Use your imaginations and the darn rule book.

 

Other useful and under appreicated 1st level wizard spells foir low level wizards: Colour Spray, Ray of Enfeeblement (makes warriors have no strnegth to even move in their armour), Spider Climb, Grease, and the list could go on.

 

Anyone who thinks a wizard is weak at 1st level just because of low hit points simply isn't looking at the big picture and doens't udnerstand D&D at all.

 

Sure, a wizard has a chance to be killed; but guess what? He can as easily kill the fighter as the fighter cna kill him.

[Rhomal]

Ames, Iowa.  We have a Gamestop and Gamerz, but the closest EB is in Des Moines.

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Since EB and Gamestop are in talks to merge (last I read few months ago) you prob dont have to wait very long. I beleive the article said GS parent company was buying out EB. But been awhile since I read that so I may have the details confused.

[Daroowise]

Sure, a wizard has a chance to be killed; but guess what? He can as easily kill the fighter as the fighter cna kill him.

Yea... its all about toe to toe and initiative really. Seems like the 2e casting time is 1 round, don't ask me about 3e because 3e is just stupid broken wrong (thanks wotc!)

 

The mage is pretty powerful no matter what level imho, you just have to know how to play them effectively.

 

Oh, and L1 fighter still has to hit you to be effective... more so than the mage (magic missile, burning hands...). Granted, L1 mage has like an AC of between 20 and 16, but there's always a chance for miss.

Edited September 26, 2005 by Daroowise

[Calax]

Ames, Iowa.  We have a Gamestop and Gamerz, but the closest EB is in Des Moines.

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In Omaha he have a Gamestop, Software Etc, Gamez, EB and another I can't recall all within a block of each other. We have game stores all over town.

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Technically Eb is a corprate non entity, they got bought by Gamestop a while ago.

[mkreku]

I just remember that if even so much as a rat nibbled on my mage he flopped over dead. He would not withstand a single hit from anything. Volourn keeps mentioning all these spells the mages have to choose from. What he fails to mention is that a level 1 mage has 4 spell slots to use (at least in 2E). Not much room for anything but sleep and magic missile, unless you're willing to rest after every battle.

[Guest Fishboot]

I just remember that if even so much as a rat nibbled on my mage he flopped over dead. He would not withstand a single hit from anything. Volourn keeps mentioning all these spells the mages have to choose from. What he fails to mention is that a level 1 mage has 4 spell slots to use (at least in 2E). Not much room for anything but sleep and magic missile, unless you're willing to rest after every battle.

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Four? In the first and second edition a 1st level mage had only one first level spell per day. They were tactically useful for "the big fight" of a given adventure, but other than that they were four hit points of 20 THAC0 fury to be chaperoned.

 

On the other hand after level 12 or so they were totally unstoppable.

[Volourn]

"I just remember that if even so much as a rat nibbled on my mage he flopped over dead. He would not withstand a single hit from anything. Volourn keeps mentioning all these spells the mages have to choose from. What he fails to mention is that a level 1 mage has 4 spell slots to use (at least in 2E). Not much room for anything but sleep and magic missile, unless you're willing to rest after every battle."

 

1. Rabbits don't attack mages.

 

2. A mage has one spell in 2E + 1 depending on intelligence + 1 if specialzied

 

3. A sleep spell is ALL a wizard needs in 2E against a warrior. Afterall, in 2E sleep offers NO SAVE. A sleeping warrior = death.

 

4. Any 1st level wizard who memorizes magic missle at level one has shown to lack of the intleligence to be a wizard and deserves to die to a rabbit. Why the heck would a wizard memorize 1d4+1 dmaage spell when better offesnive spells cna be had?

 

This just shows where you are coming from - a lack of knowledge. I lost count of how many dead warriors I've seen because they bragged 'oh, it's just a 1st level wizard' lol.

 

5. You don't need to rest. You keep bragging how a wizard cna die in one hit - big deal. A wizard could concievably kill a 1st leevl warrior in one hit. And, all classes have thac0s of 20 to begin.

 

In 3e, the wizard's power is even increased from 2e so no worries there.

 

Come on, people. Play D&D before saying silly things like this.

[Skynet]

Psst, Volourn. He said a rat, not a rabbit.

[EnderAndrew]

On principle I'm deciding not to argue with Volourn.

[Weiser_Cain]

Not reading anything in the topic, shouldn't you really be blaming devs and their masters?

[alanschu]

On principle I'm deciding not to argue with Volourn.

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As much as it goes against my Tireless Rebutter persona, I'm with you on this one.

[Child of Flame]

On principle I'm going to disregard whatever Weiser Cain said even if he might be right. In fact, I didn't even really read the post, I just saw his name and started laughing.

[Weiser_Cain]

We'll have none of that language here, thankyou.

 

 

*slaps weiser on the wrist*

Edited September 27, 2005 by Authority

[mkreku]

1. Rabbits don't attack mages.

You're the only one talking about rabbits here. You accuse others of lack of knowledge. How about you gain the knowledge of reading comprehension..?

2. A mage has one spell in 2E + 1 depending on intelligence + 1 if specialzied

Here you take into account the attributes of the character by saying mages get spell slots from intelligence..

5. You don't need to rest. You keep bragging how a wizard cna die in one hit - big deal.  A wizard could concievably kill a 1st leevl warrior in one hit. And, all classes have thac0s of 20 to begin.

..and here you conveniently 'forgot' that THAC0 is dependant on dexterity. None of my warriors/rogues had THAC0 20. Volourn logic extravaganza!

 

And how is admitting that my mages die to rats bragging? That's as dumb as saying "You keep bragging about your low intelligence by writing posts like this".

[EnderAndrew]

Actually THAC0 is based on STR except for Melee weapons, and I thought other classes started with a THAC0 of 19, such as notably Fighters.

 

D&D is that wacky game where one attribute governs damage and your ability to hit.

[mkreku]

I might have to mention that my only knowledge of D&D 2E comes from playing Pool of Radiance in 1988.. My memory might be a bit rusty ) But I do know that my THAC0 was never 20 for my fighters or rogues.

[Volourn]

"Psst, Volourn. He said a rat, not a rabbit."

 

Ok. He got me there. LOL That ends all argument.

 

 

"Here you take into account the attributes of the character by saying mages get spell slots from intelligence.."

 

As are you when you suggest that your fighters never had a thac0 of 20. And, wow, your rogues must have had very high strength or they never used melee and always stuck with their bow.

 

 

Still, I'm waiting for you to prove that a 1st level wizard is a wuss compared to fighters. The only thing you bring up are their lack of hit points which is silly since wizards will *always* have low hit points in comparison to other classes. It's a weakness; but it is by no chance terminal.

 

Still have yet to hear successfully argue against the various spells like sleep or the fact that a 1st level mage can kill a 1st level fighter in one hit too.

Edited September 27, 2005 by Volourn

[Child of Flame]

We'll have none of that language here, thankyou.

 

 

*slaps weiser on the wrist*

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[Weiser_Cain]

Yeah, seems the only way you'd ever win an argument.

 

Waits for the prerequsite arguing on the internet is like winning the special olympics pic...

Edited September 27, 2005 by Weiser_Cain

[Fionavar]

Hmmm I am sensing derailment?

[Guest Fishboot]

I might have to mention that my only knowledge of D&D 2E comes from playing Pool of Radiance in 1988.. My memory might be a bit rusty ) But I do know that my THAC0 was never 20 for my fighters or rogues.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Psst... PoR was 1st edition.

 

Everyone had raw THAC0 20 at first level in 1E/2E, but at least warriors usually had some strength bonus, broadswords, longbows, splint mail and 8-9 HP. In 2E or Unearthed Arcana 1E (I think) they'd also have weapon specialization. Anyway, Volourn is right that a 1L mage could kill a 1L (or even a 3L) fighter in a Sleep spell, no problem, but in the context of teamwork in an adventure the mage was a porcelain unicorn that you had to protect for 9/10ths of the time.

[Colrom]

Volourn I understand what you are saying and agree your view has merit but I was thinking of the P&P adventures I have played where my low level mage always had a lower kill total than the low level fighters and clerics in the party.

 

I would take armor and magic missile as spells each day and basically save them for a key battle on that day when I would spend them all to save the party from disaster. The rest of the time I stayed in the back and kept looking over my shoulder.

 

Sleep is a good spell, but it doesn't work against many monsters and when it does work still requires a deathblow to finsih the job.

 

The fact is that fighters and clerics wear armor, have more hitpoints, and deal more damage over time at lower levels.

 

All low level characters are easy to kill - but mages take longer to develop the kind of resources and toughness that allows them to relax a bit.