Cut Ending Stuff

[Hobbes99]

The question concerning whether or not we should/would pay for an expansion restoring this content is a very interesting one.

 

On the one side, purchasing such a package would essentially mean endorsing the prospect of selling half a game (which already occurs to some degree) - which obviously, objectively is something that many people (quite rightly) have difficulty reconciling.

 

The unfortunate flip-side to this is that a company such as Obsidian could probably not afford to devote the time & resources required to doing this product if no financial backing were forthcoming (and if no sales were to be made, that backing is far less likely to materialize). This would not only necessitate them working for free, but also assigning a lesser priority to their upcoming projects - which given the current state of the industry, I very much doubt they could do.

 

A potential, workable (and perhaps favourable) solution to this, would be if they (or someone else) were to be comissioned to create a true expansion pack - with truly original content that has not already been created, whilst simultaneously rendering all the loose ends fully functional again. The question as to whether or not we should buy the expansion pack would be made all the more easy for the simple fact that we were actually investing in new work - not just the remedying of unfinished work. After all, I think that deep-down, most people here would be more than willing to pay the extra money to see this missing content as long as they weren't indirectly supporting shoddy producion methods.

[Rodatam]

Selling the content is NOT right

they should be working to put at least some parts of the game in future patches ( the HK factory, quests for everyone in malachor V[like the mira one, regarding their pasts], an quest with the little robot fixing the ebon hawk...)

[Hobbes99]

Selling the content is NOT right

they should be working to put at least some parts of the game in future patches

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I quite agree - but consider this. The content that hasn't been created, is unlikely to ever be made (cut-scenes & end sequences, for example). If they were to work on a true expansion pack, they would be afforded the financial freedom to create that content whilst working on truly new material.

 

With the missing content restored, this alone could be released as a large patch for those who are unwilling/unable to pay for more. At the same time, they could be creating a new planet/location or two, and new character interaction possibilities (in the form of an expansion) for the benefit of those who want more - but the true significance of it's existance would be the potential for them to remedy what was unfinished whilst affording themselves the financial infrastructure afforded by a new product.

[Eji]

Selling the content is NOT right

they should be working to put at least some parts of the game in future patches ( the HK factory, quests for everyone in malachor V[like the mira one, regarding their pasts], an quest with the little robot fixing the ebon hawk...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think at this point, if there was even a slight chance of getting them to do this, their only incentive to do it would be if they profited from doing so. I would certainly be willing to pay for an expansion if it restored everything we know to be missing. If they made the cutscenes, did the animation, restored the dialogue, and maybe had a movie clip or something, then you'd definitely be getting your money's worth.

 

There's no way a company (or at least one tied to LA) will spend extra time/effort on freebie stuff for gamers. (and I'm not talking about normal patches, since those only fix bugs... I mean, new plot/content)

[Jarx Xun]

I would pay for an expansion pack to restore and add more things. I really want KOTOR 2 to make sense, if it means paying $30 for it then I'd do it. I am concerned though that it would be like telling LA that it's ok to cut stuff out of a game for the sake of development time because you'll make more money on it in the end.

 

What I'm hoping for is someone at Obsidian releasing an unofficial mod.

[213374U]

I quite agree - but consider this.  The content that hasn't been created, is unlikely to ever be made (cut-scenes & end sequences, for example).  If they were to work on a true expansion pack, they would be afforded the financial freedom to create that content whilst working on truly new material.

 

With the missing content restored, this alone could be released as a large patch for those who are unwilling/unable to pay for more.  At the same time, they could be creating a new planet/location or two, and new character interaction possibilities (in the form of an expansion) for the benefit of those who want more - but the true significance of it's existance would be the potential for them to remedy what was unfinished whilst affording themselves the financial infrastructure afforded by a new product.

Those are good points indeed. I would definitely pay for such an expansion pack.

[Trom]

I dunno about money being a factor for an expansion pack. If they did in fact sell 2 million copies of K1 and they are well on there way of hitting 1 million K2 (according to an advert they sold 260,000 copies the first day), then they've already generated sales of $150 million off the two titles. I'm guessing OE production costs of about $7-$10 million. AFter everything elses is factored out (marketing, packaging, markup), I think LA conservatively has netted $50-60 million. It seems to me they've already made their money and risk even more invective, either real or perceived, if they charge for it.

 

In K1, they left out Yavin Station, which was incidental to the plot, on the XBox then made it available to them after completing it in the PC version (I believe this is the correct sequence). So the two major issues with K2 are the droid planet, which is incidental, and the inexplicable change of the endgame (which is crucial). If they decided to do in K2 what they did in K1, the problem is that if the droid planet, is there, but there is hardly any scripting for it. Likewise, to restore

the endgame the resources are there, but they'd have to go through a major QA cycle to re-integrate it.

 

To me, they're between a rock and hard place on this. The first patch will probably be just tech fixes with some game mechanic tweaking then they'll assess the reaction to that. I was surprised when one of the devs said that the whole idea of a deconstructional workbench was to reduce inventory load. Other players as well as myself have commented on the huge untouched inventory at the end of the game. I think I used the workbench decon once just to have a few extra things before Darth Nihilus thinking he'd be quite a battle. Hmmm.

 

The modders over at Holowan Labs seem more excited about reconstituting the droid planet than fixing the ending, but that probably will change, so there's always hope there. For modders, the droid planet is wide open to work with without worrying about changing the plotline. Re-implementing the endgame would take combing through the code to find out where things were left hanging. There are some very bright people over there that have the tools and skills to do it.

 

Still, I'm convinced if the petition hits 10,000 signatures, that might get some sort of reaction that we desire. Please take the time to sign it even if you don't think it has a chance in hell. If nothing else, it will give the developers of K3 something to think about.

[213374U]

The problem with that is that the Xbox version lacks the update feature. If they were to release a 'fixed' version of the game, Xbox users (and hence MS) would be very pissed.

[Jedihuh?]

I just read that Halo 2.5 will come out with the new xbox in november or whenever it is released and it will enclude a better more complete ending....then I thought that maybe they would do the same for KOTOR 2...and since the new xbox is gonna be compatable with the old game you wouldn't have to buy it again to get the ended or it might just come with the HD that the xbox 2 is gonna have like halo 2 will.....This is just a thought tho

 

heres the article about Halo 2.5

http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/7408/Halo-25...box-2-The-Bomb/

[isdngirl]

I just want to thank everyone who posted the dialog/mp3s.

 

Just makes me (like majority of you sad).

 

One of the most annoying things to me about the ending (other than everything after Danto) was the fact no matter what side you came out on DS/LS as a female you got Krieas response about a certain party would sit reluctantly on the council as all good men do - only problem is that this person was as evil as I could make him(dark red) - how is he a good man then??!!

 

I also noticed if you played as a male pc you got far more information than with the cut scenes than if you played as a female :/

 

Id be willing to pay for a fixed copy even tho like an idiot I have the PC/XBox version but Im hoping someone with skill can do something-anything to make it better.

 

Anyways Im including thekotor 2 petitionsomeone posted in this thread before so hopefully more people will sign it .

 

In the meantime I guess Ill hope someone writes some cool fan fict or something that makes the ending plausible.

 

Pfft 30+ hours for a credit screen (multiple times because I thought I did something wrong!)

[witchzenka]

One of the most annoying things to me about the ending (other than everything after Danto) was the fact no matter what side you came out on DS/LS as a female you got Krieas response about a certain party would sit reluctantly on the council as all good men do - only problem is that this person was as evil as I could make him(dark red) - how is he a good man then??!!

 

My ds female ending ended up with this guy leaving behind the Jedi and all it stands for, and joining the Senate. Kreia said "A heart can only take so many betrayals."

If we're talking about the same guy - the only one I've ever been told will sit on the new Jedi Council, reluctantly, as all good men do.

[Toreyn]

There's no way a company (or at least one tied to LA) will spend extra time/effort on freebie stuff for gamers. (and I'm not talking about normal patches, since those only fix bugs... I mean, new plot/content)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, didn't Black Isle do this with Icewind Dale? Free downloadable expansion with new content - Tales Of The Luremaster, as I recall. So maybe there's more hope than we might think that Obsidian will come through for us. Reputation means alot in this business, and these guys have a legacy of goodwill I'm sure they don't want to tarnish.

 

Look what happened to Troika - great games, rushed out before they were done. Do that one time too many, and its game over.

[Gorth]

Actually, didn't Black Isle do this with Icewind Dale?  Free downloadable expansion with new content - Tales Of The Luremaster, as I recall.  So maybe there's more hope than we might think that Obsidian will come through for us.  Reputation means alot in this business, and these guys have a legacy of goodwill I'm sure they don't want to tarnish.

 

It's probably not the good will to please fans that is lacking, but Black Isle was their own publisher and license holder (at the time) of the Icewind Dale brand. They could do pretty much anything they wanted as long as they could afford it and WotC (IIRC) didn't choke on the content.

 

Way more interests have to be coordinated by something published by somebody else (and no idea where Microsoft fits in the equation)

[Azon]

I'm not sure how much has been said in defense of Obsidian here (I haven't read through the 38 pages of this post nor do I intend to ) or if this has been mentioned before but...

 

In the interest of "defending my kind" as it were: I found this over at the NWN2 forums (which should give some indication of how far some are willing to go to merely bash and not give any sort of constructive criticism or suggestions to either Obsidian or fellow fans):

 

Frankly, while I speak for myself, I can also say that some of us are getting kind of tired of seeing the Kotor2 "bashing" show up on these NWN2 forums.

 

I think a lot of you guys are failing to realize that making a game isn't as dreamy as simply sitting down and saying "hey, let's do this and that and this...and it will be done when we say it's done." Nope, sorry...it just doesn't work that way. The reality of the business, at least for now is that we answer to "other factors".

 

While I also realize that some of you do "get" this, you guys seem to be far and few between.

 

With that being said, I think it should also be noted that a large majority of the NWN2 team is different than the Kotor2 team. On top of that, it's also a completely different and unrelated publisher.

 

The bottom line is this... If we had all the time in the world, then by all means we'd give you guys all what you want. We value honest, meaningful, insightful, and creative feedback and suggestions. But please also keep in mind that there are timelines that we have to work within and features do have to be prioritized. I hope you guys can understand that.

 

So, from this point forward please make an honest effort to refrain from mentioning/bashing Kotor2 in these forums. And PLEASE, don't come on here with an attitude like we've "wronged" you and you just "can't trust" us anymore and that you're going to "admonish" us for something that we may or may not have had direct control over.

 

Thanks.

_________________

Brian Lawson

Senior Graphics Programmer

Obsidian Entertainment

[Eji]

Huh, interesting... but why didn't they post that here?

[Yunerz]

Huh, interesting...  but why didn't they post that here?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They'd get mauled and would have to lock threads probably

[213374U]

Nah. All that is about K2 bashing being out of place in the Bio NWN2 boards. Since K2 bashing belongs here, they couldn't really complain about it.

[Darth Tratious]

the droid planet is actually scripted and stuff i was playing it anyway i used warp 804dro to get there

[Meshugger]

There are some people who would have screamed like howlermonkey on crack if they posted here, but i think the majority here has provided constructive critizism.

[Trom]

I'm not sure how much has been said in defense of Obsidian here (I haven't read through the 38 pages of this post nor do I intend to ) or if this has been mentioned before but...

 

In the interest of "defending my kind" as it were: I found this over at the NWN2 forums (which should give some indication of how far some are willing to go to merely bash and not give any sort of constructive criticism or suggestions to either Obsidian or fellow fans):

 

Frankly, while I speak for myself, I can also say that some of us are getting kind of tired of seeing the Kotor2 "bashing" show up on these NWN2 forums.

 

I think a lot of you guys are failing to realize that making a game isn't as dreamy as simply sitting down and saying "hey, let's do this and that and this...and it will be done when we say it's done." Nope, sorry...it just doesn't work that way. The reality of the business, at least for now is that we answer to "other factors".

 

While I also realize that some of you do "get" this, you guys seem to be far and few between.

 

With that being said, I think it should also be noted that a large majority of the NWN2 team is different than the Kotor2 team. On top of that, it's also a completely different and unrelated publisher.

 

The bottom line is this... If we had all the time in the world, then by all means we'd give you guys all what you want. We value honest, meaningful, insightful, and creative feedback and suggestions. But please also keep in mind that there are timelines that we have to work within and features do have to be prioritized. I hope you guys can understand that.

 

So, from this point forward please make an honest effort to refrain from mentioning/bashing Kotor2 in these forums. And PLEASE, don't come on here with an attitude like we've "wronged" you and you just "can't trust" us anymore and that you're going to "admonish" us for something that we may or may not have had direct control over.

 

Thanks.

_________________

Brian Lawson

Senior Graphics Programmer

Obsidian Entertainment

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

EXTEMELY interesting...and scary. First, thanks Azon for bringing this here, but I'd say that initially at least, 95% of the posts concerning this *were* constructive criticisms. I'm guessing the lack of response has been frustrating to some.

 

Having said that, wasn't Brian Lawson also the guy who wrote something in GameSpy that arrogantly dismissed the initial criticism as a "few" disgruntled players? I've lost that link, does anyone have it?

 

Now for the scary part. The overall tone of the posting is defensive, and the problem is that instead of trying to understand the criticism, he's finding ways to dismiss it. He's high up in the organization and so far has been the only one to address the issue directly. I had hoped that some independent spirits from OE would have said something, but this is what we're getting which might indicate what's going on at OE.

 

Furthermore, as to why he did that at NWN2 instead of here might be another indication of their thinking. They've moved on and the money is in the bank. However, NWN2 is not money in the bank yet and they might be concerned about the effect our efforts are having.

 

To say that we don't understand timelines imposed by outside forces, I'm guessing LA, is disingenuous at best. If LA demanded a 12 month cycle, then OE was free to accept it or reject it as realistic. Heck, with BioWare's support they had a lot of leverage to negotiate.

 

Even the business about speaking for himself, and some others, and he signs it with his official OE signature is strange, but it does give some hope. If it is indeed "some" and not all, maybe someone will finally speak to valid, rational criticisms (that many have voiced not a few) he claims they highly value.

 

What we need is a Braveheart at OE.

[Azon]

I should clarify the context in which this was posted: he was responding to a "bash post" about kotor2 in the nwn2 forums; so it was a post on a game the forums aren't about (that's what we have this thread for ). For those that are interested here's the link to the full thread from which I copy-pasted.

[Bulgaroctonus]

I don't know, I think he gave a lot away. From that I got the impression that the KotOR II issues may indeed have had to do with a pushing publisher.....

[MacGamer]

Selling the content is NOT right

they should be working to put at least some parts of the game in future patches ( the HK factory, quests for everyone in malachor V[like the mira one, regarding their pasts], an quest with the little robot fixing the ebon hawk...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think at this point, if there was even a slight chance of getting them to do this, their only incentive to do it would be if they profited from doing so. I would certainly be willing to pay for an expansion if it restored everything we know to be missing. If they made the cutscenes, did the animation, restored the dialogue, and maybe had a movie clip or something, then you'd definitely be getting your money's worth.

 

There's no way a company (or at least one tied to LA) will spend extra time/effort on freebie stuff for gamers. (and I'm not talking about normal patches, since those only fix bugs... I mean, new plot/content)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I fully agree with Rodatam's point. Having to pay to put finish the content in the game would amount to theft. Legal theft, unfortunately, but theft nonetheless.

 

I paid a hearty sum for this game (much more than I usually pay for a game), sight unseen, based SOLELY on the enjoyment I had from the first KoTOR, and of Obsidian's past experience with the Baldur's Gate series & others. Admittadly, I did enjoy the game with what it had. However, I do feel that it was still in a Beta condition, with much to be added, and should never have been released in this condition. I do feel somewhat cheated, having been the victim of the all-mighty bottom line. Unfortunately, this has also tarnished the reputation of both this title, and of Obsidian Entertainment, both of which I have held in the highest regard.

 

The ONLY reason this game was allowed to be released in such an abbhorent state was to make the Christmas season. With a long history in retail, and now in consumer electronics production, I fully understand the importance of this decision. I do believe (and REALY REALLY REALLY hope) Obsidian and LucasArts put together a plan, secret or not, to complete work on the game to polish it up, and not leave the atrociousness of the cut content, lackluster ending, and unfinished final polish on the story as a whole.

 

The decision to release the game for the Christmas season was pretty much set in stone. The Christmas season is where you see the most sales, and I don't believe they could have waited another year before releasing the game. Factors such as advertising/PR (inclusing general buzz), production materials (CDs, printed manuals, jewel cases, etc.), retailer shelf space were all in place, contracts were signed by several companies, and would not be able to just "be put on hold" until next year. Granted.

 

But my point comes down to this. LucasArts and Obsidian, you've made your sales. We've done our part by purchasing the game you designed. The FULL game, as it was intended to be, NOT half, NOT two-thirds, a FULL game. I don't just request that you follow through on this, as a consumer, one of the thousands who have paid you $49.95 for each unit, one of the group that effectively wrote the check for this game and your paycheck, I DEMAND that you follow through with the work that was intended to happen for this game, complete the story, restore the cut content, and have Knights of The Old Republic II be restored to it's full glory.

 

I am following through on this voicing of my opinion with a letter (yes, an ACTUAL letter via snailmail) to be sent to Obsidian Entertainment AND LucasArts, followed by an e-mail of that same letter to said companies.

 

I would suggest to everyone here to do the same, if you really are dissatisfied with the game. Also sign the online petition. Start to make your shouting actually heard by Obsidian and LucasArts, instead of just trying to kvetch on these boards, where they most likely don't want to lurk. It's up to you. Just as in the game itself, you have to make your choice.

 

Obsidian Entertainment, Inc.

1560 E. Warner Ave, Suite 220

Santa Ana, CA 92705

USA

bizdev@obsidianent.com

 

LucasArts

Attention: Product Support

Knights of The Old Republic II

P.O. Box 10307

San Rafael, CA 94912

webmaster@lucasarts.com

[Torrentus]

Carefully chosen words by Brian, but I'm going to address each point individually, and I feel OE are indeed resticted.

 

Frankly, while I speak for myself, I can also say that some of us are getting kind of tired of seeing the Kotor2 "bashing" show up on these NWN2 forums.

 

He's being defensive here. I can gather OE has collaberated on this issue. This tells us instantly that we ARE getting somewhere. Notice how he put "bashing" in inverted commas. To me, this is saying that it's causing a stir AND he doesn't QUITE see it as bashing.

 

I think a lot of you guys are failing to realize that making a game isn't as dreamy as simply sitting down and saying "hey, let's do this and that and this...and it will be done when we say it's done." Nope, sorry...it just doesn't work that way. The reality of the business, at least for now is that we answer to "other factors".

 

At least for now... it's obvious there that they have something planned. Self publishing? "other factors" they have to answer to are OBVIOUSLY Lucas Arts. So this tells me they are resticted by contact. And I think I speak for us all, when I say that we never expected perfection; we just didn't expect the so blatantly rushed ending.

 

While I also realize that some of you do "get" this, you guys seem to be far and few between.

 

So he's trying to undermine our arguments by saying we don't understand how it works. I think he's trying to shift the blame from them (or therefore LA) onto us and our "misunderstanding" of how it works.

 

With that being said, I think it should also be noted that a large majority of the NWN2 team is different than the Kotor2 team. On top of that, it's also a completely different and unrelated publisher.

 

While trying to stop the bad publicity for NWN2, it's interesting he mentions the publisher. While he doesn't say anything bad about LA, he makes a point to say the publisher is different. Leads me to believe he is hinting at LA and (see below) their schedule is to blame. Moreover, it tells us that OE know damn well our thread is here, as they are taking on board our individual arguments.

 

Suggestion: List all our problems and reasonable solutions because we obviously have their attention.

 

The bottom line is this...

 

If I was reading his message like TSL plays, this is where it would end, that way it can be "more open ended." Yay. <_<

 

If we had all the time in the world, then by all means we'd give you guys all what you want.

 

The short schedule IS to blame. The ending was cut short because of this. The above quote practically does all but says it was the fault of LA's short schedule. It could also be taken that they want to give us the full ending, but are unable to at this point.

 

We value honest, meaningful, insightful, and creative feedback and suggestions.

 

Not once is constructive critism mentioned here, but that's because he knows that we know what we're on about, and he doesn't like it. In fact he's asking for positive feedback or positive suggestions for the future.

 

But please also keep in mind that there are timelines that we have to work within and features do have to be prioritized. I hope you guys can understand that.

 

This is kinda sad as it never happened with TSL. After all, when does the ended take low prioritory? In KOTOR2 it was a "cut whatever happens later on" jobbie, because that's what needed most work. Sadly, it's going to cost them, as I know many of us will wait before buying KOTOR3.

 

So, from this point forward please make an honest effort to refrain from mentioning/bashing Kotor2 in these forums. And PLEASE, don't come on here with an attitude like we've "wronged" you and you just "can't trust" us anymore and that you're going to "admonish" us for something that we may or may not have had direct control over.

 

Seems to me like they're straining the contract with LA here. "May or May not". Of course they had NO direct control over it, if they did have direct control what would be the point of saying that? It would also conflict with what he said earlier about time constraints. He also tells us that OE don't like the bad publicity from our findings.

 

Thanks.

_________________

Brian Lawson

Senior Graphics Programmer

 

Looks like we obtained some notice from a higher ranking member of OE anyway Keep up the good work guys.

[Jedihuh?]

Im sure that many people befor you have written letters to the companies about the games ending. but when it comes down to it, suck it up take it like a man. The game is how it is. I don't see them spending any time on "finnishing" this game untill the new xbox comes out. Im sure they have alot on their plate as it is. It was a great game, and yes the ending was bad, but rest assured that they have made their money and there will be a 3rd KOTOR. and in the end isn't that all that matters? the show will go on, and you will have your conclusions when the nextgen consoles come out. I am tottally satisified with the money I spent on the game, it gave me 30 hours of fun. I have no complaints, I believe the 3rd will wrap every loose ending up. :D