US Presidential Elections - 2024 edition

[Malcador]

I've always liked how Jesus in Islam is supposed to come back and personally kill the Antichrist, then rule the world after the Madhi's death before he dies. Or at least what I've gathered loosely.

[Zoraptor]

Eh... that actually illustrates one of the core theoretical differences between Islam and Christianity. In many ways more so even than "render unto Caesar" vs not having an equivalent, though that has had more practical effect.

If you're Christian you're- at least theoretically- meant to capital B Believe Revelations as being The Word including the arrival of the Great Dragon (? it's been a while) etc. Of course practically, much like God creating the earth, some people take it more literally and some less so. Islam doesn't really have an equivalent to Revelations' apocalypse, in the Koran. The apocalyptic stuff similar to Revelations is mostly from Hadiths which are... religious guidelines may be most accurate, and not necessarily seen as being canon. eg the Mahdi isn't Koranic except as a title for Mohammed and isn't included in half the Hadith collections, so his canonicity, uh, depends. Which is fortunate given how hard some of the prophecies would be to fulfill, now.

(Selective usage of Hadiths was one of ISIS' favourite tactics for justifying themselves, since there are a lot of of them. Then again, not like there aren't Christians who take "love thy neighbour" and append an "except if they're ___" to it based on something Saul wrote, or even something in Leviticus.

People gonna people, religion just makes them feel good about it)

[BruceVC]

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/09/opinion/democrats-trump-elites-centrism.html

This link is a " BruceVC must read " 

It may  be behind a paywall but hopefully you can access it

I just watched an interview with the author on CNN and its basically about why the Dems  lost and how  they have lost touch with there core base and supporter

@Pidesco  @rjshae @Hurlshort  will find it particularly interesting but its applicable to everyone 

 

[Malcador]

Gee haven't seen that take a hundred times already.

Fetterman has his take as well

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/john-fetterman-says-democrats-need-stop-freaking-everything-trump-rcna180270

True about nor being distracted by Trump's nonsense, but Gaetz as a troll is dismissing too much

 

Edited Saturday at 05:55 PM by Malcador

[Pidesco]

8 hours ago, BruceVC said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/09/opinion/democrats-trump-elites-centrism.html

This link is a " BruceVC must read " 

It may  be behind a paywall but hopefully you can access it

I just watched an interview with the author on CNN and its basically about why the Dems  lost and how  they have lost touch with there core base and supporter

@Pidesco  @rjshae @Hurlshort  will find it particularly interesting but its applicable to everyone 

 

He is right that the moderate left has effectively abandoned the working class, but he is wrong that they abandoned it in favor of liberal elites. The moderate left has in fact abandoned the working class, but in favour of moneyed interests, be it multimillionaires, large corporate conglomerates or banking giants. This is true of moderate left parties across all advanced economies. In the US you could rephrase it to say in favor of the lobbying class. Fundamentally, due to Reagan's administration outsized influence in US and world politics, the moderate left got infected by supply side economics from the 90s onward, later known as trickle down economics. Another way of putting it is that the Economy Overton Window moved clearly and definitely to the right.

The main consequence of this was depressing lower and middle class wages across the board, in every advanced economy since the 80s. First and foremost, over time this created an undercurrent of resentment, due to a disconnect between expected purchasing power and effective purchasing power among the traditional left-wing base. This decrease in the revenue of the general population, also inevitably led to a decrease in tax revenue, which has had a definite negative effect on all public services, especially healthcare and education.

And while this has been terrible enough during left-wing government tenures, right wing governments have been only too happy to make things even worse than left wing governments are making them.

Also, given the extended timeline under which this has been happening(30 to 40 years, depending on the country, I'd say), it's beyond the ability of any well meaning government to effectively turn this tide and significantly correct economic outcomes for working class families.

This means that we are literally in an era of economic inequality that would make late 1800s robber barons blush at even the thought of it. And the only parties that have been able to effectively profit politically from this state of affairs are far right parties, meaning parties propped up and financed by the same financial interests which are making things worse economically for those who are poorest.

[BruceVC]

8 hours ago, Pidesco said:

He is right that the moderate left has effectively abandoned the working class, but he is wrong that they abandoned it in favor of liberal elites. The moderate left has in fact abandoned the working class, but in favour of moneyed interests, be it multimillionaires, large corporate conglomerates or banking giants. This is true of moderate left parties across all advanced economies. In the US you could rephrase it to say in favor of the lobbying class. Fundamentally, due to Reagan's administration outsized influence in US and world politics, the moderate left got infected by supply side economics from the 90s onward, later known as trickle down economics. Another way of putting it is that the Economy Overton Window moved clearly and definitely to the right.

The main consequence of this was depressing lower and middle class wages across the board, in every advanced economy since the 80s. First and foremost, over time this created an undercurrent of resentment, due to a disconnect between expected purchasing power and effective purchasing power among the traditional left-wing base. This decrease in the revenue of the general population, also inevitably led to a decrease in tax revenue, which has had a definite negative effect on all public services, especially healthcare and education.

And while this has been terrible enough during left-wing government tenures, right wing governments have been only too happy to make things even worse than left wing governments are making them.

Also, given the extended timeline under which this has been happening(30 to 40 years, depending on the country, I'd say), it's beyond the ability of any well meaning government to effectively turn this tide and significantly correct economic outcomes for working class families.

This means that we are literally in an era of economic inequality that would make late 1800s robber barons blush at even the thought of it. And the only parties that have been able to effectively profit politically from this state of affairs are far right parties, meaning parties propped up and financed by the same financial interests which are making things worse economically for those who are poorest.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/16/politics/video/smr-elites-had-it-coming

Here  is the actual interview, he explains his view in more detail and it also raises  things you mention

He doesnt come across as a  MAGA cultist which I prefer and he uses history and some relevant examples to make the point around how the Dems have "abandoned the working class "

Its only 8  minutes and also I would recommend that anyone interested in a Centralist   and objective analysis of the political reality of the US to watch the Smerconish show, its an hour once a week on  CNN and he has really interesting guests who have a wide range of different views

Here is the website for those that dont have CNN

https://www.smerconish.com/

 

 

 

 

[BruceVC]

13 hours ago, Malcador said:

Gee haven't seen that take a hundred times already.

Fetterman has his take as well

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/john-fetterman-says-democrats-need-stop-freaking-everything-trump-rcna180270

True about nor being distracted by Trump's nonsense, but Gaetz as a troll is dismissing too much

 

I dont  dislike Fetterman but some of these comments dont help the Dems at all or rather they need some honesty. 

 

At the end he says "

NBC NEWS: Could Kamala Harris have done anything different that you think might have changed the results?

FETTERMAN: I’ll never be in that place. I mean, it’s been a pleasure to campaign with her across my state. And I’m not going to be part of like the piling on or the “you should’ves.” I’m not going to shoot on anybody at this point." 

 

I realize he is a politician but if the Dems want to ever win again they need a  reset, you cant blame Harris for most of the overall election failure but established Dem politicians like Fetterman need to understand and acknowledge the necessary paradigm shift that his party needs to make 

[Zoraptor]

Eh, publicly critiquing Harris wouldn't achieve anything. While you could argue that Clinton was the problem in 2016 so it might be important to state her mistakes to avoid repeating them it's a lot harder to make the same argument for Harris, given circumstances like her not even being the candidate for a decent portion of campaigning. Plus he's right, publicly sticking the knife in to someone you worked with when they fail is a crap thing to do.

Most of the criticisms of 'Harris' that could be given would be more fairly directed at the overall leadership and party strategists anyway.

[BruceVC]

31 minutes ago, Zoraptor said:

Eh, publicly critiquing Harris wouldn't achieve anything. While you could argue that Clinton was the problem in 2016 so it might be important to state her mistakes to avoid repeating them it's a lot harder to make the same argument for Harris, given circumstances like her not even being the candidate for a decent portion of campaigning. Plus he's right, publicly sticking the knife in to someone you worked with when they fail is a crap thing to do.

Most of the criticisms of 'Harris' that could be given would be more fairly directed at the overall leadership and party strategists anyway.

Yes I don't think publicly criticising  Harris is helpful or relevant which is why I said blaming Harris is unnecessary 

The real question and required  analysis is where the Dems as  a party have gone wrong around strategy, where they acknowledge this and how they fix it 

But to be fair they need time to reflect on things so Im expecting something meaningful  in the next 4-6 months?