Malcador Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 (edited) https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/05/israel-military-offensive-hamas-destruction-gaza/ https://archive.is/e1WnY "At least 5,000 Hamas militants have been killed, according to three Israeli security officials, leaving the majority of its estimated 30,000-strong military wing intact." https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-military-civilian-ratio-killed-intl-hnk Conricus added: “I can say that if that is true – and I think that our numbers will be corroborated – if you compare that ratio to any other conflict in urban terrain between a military and a terrorist organization using civilians as their human shields, and embedded in the civilian population, you will find that that ratio is tremendous, tremendously positive, and perhaps unique in the world.” Now that's hasbara. Edited December 5, 2023 by Malcador Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexx Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 Conveniently ignoring the amount of died and displaced civilians. "only when you no-life you can exist forever, because what does not live cannot die." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted December 6, 2023 Share Posted December 6, 2023 Quote Conricus added: “I can say that if that is true – and I think that our numbers will be corroborated – if you compare that ratio to any other conflict in urban terrain between a military and a terrorist organization using civilians as their human shields, and embedded in the civilian population, you will find that that ratio is tremendous, tremendously positive, and perhaps unique in the world.” Sheesh, did Trump write that Conricus quote? Only missing a bigly and digression about how people come up in the street to tell him the IDF is the most moral army in the world. Really though, talk about making a rod for their own back. If eliminating Hamas is the target even if Israel's figures are correct that would require 60k civilian casualties (and 90k total). It seems unlikely that even someone as supine as Joe Biden would allow that number. Not for moral considerations- it's clear the west doesn't actually care about the civilians deaths on moral grounds, just political- but because every time the Rules Based Order throws accusations he knows they'll get 'but Gaza' thrown in their face. With the current figures they can probably get away with ICC head Karim Khan deciding there's only enough money to investigate Hamas war crimes, not Israeli, in a few years time*. It'll get progressively harder as casualties mount though. *not really snark either- Brit Karim Khan's near first order of business when appointed to head the ICC was... to limit investigations in Afghanistan to Taleban/ ISIS war crimes. 'Budgetary limitations' meant that potential Coalition war crimes won't be actively investigated... heh, classic Rules Based Order, such lovable little scamps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyrock Posted December 6, 2023 Share Posted December 6, 2023 52 minutes ago, Zoraptor said: It seems unlikely that even someone as supine as Joe Biden would allow that number. Do you think Biden & Co would actually have the spine to go against the rather powerful Zionist lobby and cut funding and/or pull Murica's blanket diplomatic protection of Israel? Because that's what I believe it would take to have any real effect. Quite a few US politicians, including Hair-sniffing Joe, have warned Israel to change their tactics, repeatedly, and it's had **** all effect. Bibi sees them as having all bark and no bite because, well, there's all the evidence in the world for that. Until the US grows the stones to cut ties I think we're going to continue getting ethnic cleansing full speed ahead. RFK Jr 2024 "Any organization created out of fear must create fear to survive." - Bill Hicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted December 6, 2023 Share Posted December 6, 2023 They wouldn't have to go against Israel itself to get the desired effect. There's no practical chance of, say, the US cutting off Israel from supplies, let alone embargoing them. There's a lot that can be done to apply pressure without going that far though. Probably the most obvious being going after Netanyahu personally, especially if it looks like he's deliberately stalling to try and prolong his political life. There's also going after the more intransigent elements in his cabinet (some evidence this is already happening, with some Settlers being sanctioned and Bibi largely relying on their votes). The US can certainly make his position untenable if they want to, it's mostly a question of how public they'd want to be while doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted December 7, 2023 Author Share Posted December 7, 2023 https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/06/investing/bill-ackman-harvard-penn-antisemitism/index.html A most disturbing story, when the presidents of 3 prominent US universities were asked " whether calling for the genocide of Jews violates their respective school’s code of conduct on bullying or harassment" The response was "None of the school leaders explicitly said that calling for the genocide of Jews would necessarily violate their code of conduct. Instead, they explained it would depend on the circumstances and conduct " But I can guarantee you they would have an immediate response on other types of bigotry at Universities like racism or homophobia and circumstances wouldn't matter "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/12/1144447 US might as well file their veto now 1 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elerond Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 20 hours ago, Malcador said: https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/12/1144447 US might as well file their veto now It would be first time after 1959 when soviets blocked resolution against Vietnam because of their aggression towards Laos. Usually countries that opposite issues that have been brought up using article 99 just refuse to participate in the vote. Although last time when article 99 was invoked was in 1989 for Lebanon crisis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 (edited) At least the UNSC session is starting off funnily, Russian Federation representative just mocking Blinken and being very upset about destruction and devastation. Vetoed as expected. Sort of funny to see the US rep as the only one with his hand up Edited December 8, 2023 by Malcador Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 Ah well, time for the old Uniting For Peace approach I guess... though I suspect there will be a few less advocates for that than there have been for other issues. 13-1 is actually worse than the February22 UNSC resolution aimed at Russia over Ukraine (11-1) and which triggered a bunch of articles on Russia's diplomatic isolation. Couldn't even get two of the NATO members or Japan to abstain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgon Posted December 9, 2023 Share Posted December 9, 2023 On 12/7/2023 at 3:16 PM, BruceVC said: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/06/investing/bill-ackman-harvard-penn-antisemitism/index.html A most disturbing story, when the presidents of 3 prominent US universities were asked " whether calling for the genocide of Jews violates their respective school’s code of conduct on bullying or harassment" The response was "None of the school leaders explicitly said that calling for the genocide of Jews would necessarily violate their code of conduct. Instead, they explained it would depend on the circumstances and conduct " But I can guarantee you they would have an immediate response on other types of bigotry at Universities like racism or homophobia and circumstances wouldn't matter to be fair, if there was some sort of mandate on free speech the first thing that would happen is that Palestinean and Israli students both would start accusing eachother of promoting genocide and blaming the university for taking sides. What constitutes "calling for genocide of Jews" is not something everyone agrees on. It's a leading question too isn't it. They aren't asking whether you should be allowed to support mass civilian Palestinean casualties. Insisting on a case by case evaluation is a better idea. 1 Na na na na na na ... greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgon Posted December 9, 2023 Share Posted December 9, 2023 Also, a house hearing is more a chance for politicians to gain visibility than a serious treatment of an issue. It rarely comes without some outrage or another. that's kind of the point. Na na na na na na ... greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted December 9, 2023 Author Share Posted December 9, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gorgon said: to be fair, if there was some sort of mandate on free speech the first thing that would happen is that Palestinean and Israli students both would start accusing eachother of promoting genocide and blaming the university for taking sides. What constitutes "calling for genocide of Jews" is not something everyone agrees on. It's a leading question too isn't it. They aren't asking whether you should be allowed to support mass civilian Palestinean casualties. Insisting on a case by case evaluation is a better idea. I'm not sure if you aware what a backlash the terrible and tone death responses the 3 presidents gave has created ? They might be fired and I wouldnt be surprised. There is lots of criticisms towards how they responded but it was clear they had listened to their lawyers too much and lacked any expected empathetic response. They couldnt answer definitively things like " is calling for genocide of Jews considered harassment and bullying of Jewish students " And there has been no real actions towards the students but lots of lip service Imagine if it was far right students calling for the genocide of black people or LGBT, there would be no uncertainty if that was considered bullying or harassment . The presidents have subsequent apologized but the damage is done Here is a video that summarizes the disaster and then apology that came afterwards Edited December 9, 2023 by BruceVC "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgon Posted December 9, 2023 Share Posted December 9, 2023 the witnesses are both tiptoeing around a beartrap, that's why they appear so suspiciously non comitant. They want to maintain their ability to judge these things for themselves. The game is to say nothing of substance while appearing to answer. These "gocha" moments are the whole point. It's a setup from the moment you take your seat. 1 1 Na na na na na na ... greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER. That is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted December 9, 2023 Author Share Posted December 9, 2023 Just now, Gorgon said: the witnesses are both tiptoeing around a beartrap, that's why they appear so suspiciously non comitant. They want to maintain their ability to judge these things for themselves. The game is to say nothing of substance while appearing to answer. These "gocha" moments are the whole point. It's a setup from the moment you take your seat. Sure but they could have easily avoided the fallout and criticism if they stated the obvious " yes it is harassment and bullying " Watch this apology video from Magill afterwards, this is exactly what they should have said or at least something similar. I do think she is being sincere and I blame there lawyers for not preparing them properly because all 3 of them had the same types of response and it was understandably a united legal response they tried to make at the inquiry ....it was just an epic failure "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted December 9, 2023 Share Posted December 9, 2023 They couldn't have avoided it, because the situation is so polarised that anything that isn't complete and acritical support for Israel is 'genocide advocacy' to some. It's political theatre, not academic debate; Ted Cruz or whoever isn't going to politely applaud a well made point and ponder whether his position is actually correct while thinking about how he viewed the plight of Bana from Aleppo compared to Zainab from Gaza and what that says about his personal morality. Indeed, the whole idea of that is ludicrous; they'll be thinking about how it plays electorally and how much money his PAC will receive in donations if he gets in a particularly spicy zinger. You just get the same headlines when they refuse to say that 'from the river to sea' is advocating genocide- and reminder, same phrase appears in the Likud Charter, but presumably isn't genocide advocacy there. The whole point of Israel advocacy in that style is not to have a rational debate, it's to have a chilling effect where people Just Shut Up because anything said against Israel is considered antisemitic and advocating genocide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted December 9, 2023 Author Share Posted December 9, 2023 18 minutes ago, Zoraptor said: They couldn't have avoided it, because the situation is so polarised that anything that isn't complete and acritical support for Israel is 'genocide advocacy' to some. It's political theatre, not academic debate; Ted Cruz or whoever isn't going to politely applaud a well made point and ponder whether his position is actually correct while thinking about how he viewed the plight of Bana from Aleppo compared to Zainab from Gaza and what that says about his personal morality. Indeed, the whole idea of that is ludicrous; they'll be thinking about how it plays electorally and how much money his PAC will receive in donations if he gets in a particularly spicy zinger. You just get the same headlines when they refuse to say that 'from the river to sea' is advocating genocide- and reminder, same phrase appears in the Likud Charter, but presumably isn't genocide advocacy there. The whole point of Israel advocacy in that style is not to have a rational debate, it's to have a chilling effect where people Just Shut Up because anything said against Israel is considered antisemitic and advocating genocide. They could have avoided it by answering the question in the same way they would have answered the question and do answer the question if any other minority was threatened by violence or genocide. But they didn't answer it because since 7 October they have allowed violence and anti-semitic protests and they did nothing about that either at all these universities And they knew the next question would be " why havent you done anything then about the bullying and intimidation of Jewish students " So they got terrible legal advice and failed to explain or convince anyone they were committed to what the University is suppose to represent which is a safe place for students where they not bullied or intimidated They failed to do that over the last 2 months and they failed at the inquiry "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted December 9, 2023 Share Posted December 9, 2023 Let's be real here, a lot of the people puling about anti semitism at Yale or wherever would be shouting equally enthusiastically about freedom of expression if (and indeed when) it were (was), say, Chinese students being 'targeted' by pro Uighur or Tibetan protests. Banning their organisations and pandering to the feefees of the poor oppressed Chinese who don't want to hear about the genocide their government is perpetrating? An affront to the 1st amendment and just another example of the Cultural Marxism pervading academia. Not banning (some, plenty have been) pro Palestinian student organisations and not banning protests on their behalf? Strangely, also Cultural Marxism and not an affront to the 1st amendment. Exactly the same way 'from the river to the sea' is genocidal when it comes from a Palestinian, but not when it's Likud saying it. It's not a moral stance, it's a political one, and political stances should not be part of a university's brief. Palestinians probably aren't that keen on and feel a bit harassed and oppressed by the US Congress supplying most of the weapons that have killed 6000 of their children, after all, nor for all the pro Israeli demonstrations celebrating it either openly or tacitly, nor for the US recognising the annexations of East Jerusalem and the Golan, nor for the UNSC ceasefire veto. Indeed, kind of funny seeing the US talking up the PA taking over in Gaza as it's exactly the worst approach for the PA if you want it to be credible. They're already seen as Quislings by most of their constituents, if the US thinks its support is going to help them the delusion is off the scale. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoonDing Posted December 9, 2023 Share Posted December 9, 2023 The Rules Based Order must support the genocide of those other semites nobody really likes because it ushers in the second coming of Jeebus. 2 The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uuuhhii Posted December 9, 2023 Share Posted December 9, 2023 (edited) On 12/10/2023 at 4:05 AM, HoonDing said: The Rules Based Order must support the genocide of those other semites nobody really likes because it ushers in the second coming of Jeebus. god that require massacre and political manipulation to summon and bring with it twilight of human this sound like a world of darkness plotline Edited December 11, 2023 by uuuhhii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted December 12, 2023 Share Posted December 12, 2023 “CPJ is deeply alarmed by the pattern of journalists in Gaza reporting receiving threats, and subsequently, their family members being killed,” said CPJ Middle East and North Africa Program Coordinator Sherif Mansour. “The killing of the family members of journalists in Gaza is making it almost impossible for the journalists to continue reporting, as the risk now extends beyond them also to include their beloved ones.”-- via the Committee to Protect Journalists. Remember this next time someone tells you the Caesar or Magnitsky Acts are moral stances rather than political ones, because here's the US not just failing to do anything about the targeted killing of journalists but also of their families; indeed, by vetoing a ceasefire they're encouraging its continuation. Who knows, maybe there'll be an Al-Anas Act and I'll have to eat my words. I'd bet against gravity failing before that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 For what it matters- basically nothing, since it's non binding- the UNGA has voted 153-10 for an immediate ceasefire. Last ceasefire vote in the UNGA back in October was 121-14 so a lot of abstentions flipped to yes including some minor pillars of the Rules Based Order. 12000 dead civilians in 9 weeks is still all good with most of the most vocal proponents; US, UK, Germany all voted no or abstained. To put it in perspective the vote for Russia to withdraw from Ukraine was 141-5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted December 13, 2023 Author Share Posted December 13, 2023 On 12/12/2023 at 3:36 AM, Zoraptor said: “CPJ is deeply alarmed by the pattern of journalists in Gaza reporting receiving threats, and subsequently, their family members being killed,” said CPJ Middle East and North Africa Program Coordinator Sherif Mansour. “The killing of the family members of journalists in Gaza is making it almost impossible for the journalists to continue reporting, as the risk now extends beyond them also to include their beloved ones.”-- via the Committee to Protect Journalists. Remember this next time someone tells you the Caesar or Magnitsky Acts are moral stances rather than political ones, because here's the US not just failing to do anything about the targeted killing of journalists but also of their families; indeed, by vetoing a ceasefire they're encouraging its continuation. Who knows, maybe there'll be an Al-Anas Act and I'll have to eat my words. I'd bet against gravity failing before that though. Its terrible when journalists are killed in wars or by a state. Imagine just getting killed for doing your job and trying to bring the truth to people Here is a list of journalists killed by Russia in Ukraine and this list extends far beyond the current war. And Russia still sits on the UNSC and claims moral stances like outrage against the US but yet its blatantly political. The worlds so full of falseness and crocodile tears https://cpj.org/data/killed/europe/ukraine/?status=Killed&motiveConfirmed[]=Confirmed&motiveUnconfirmed[]=Unconfirmed&type[]=Journalist&type[]=Media Worker&cc_fips[]=UP&start_year=1992&end_year=2023&group_by=location "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 For the out and out war in Ukraine it's 15 journalists killed, in 22 months. Let's assume they're all Russia's fault, to make it as bad as we can for them. Similarly, don't use the 2023 figures (2 deaths, which for a large scale conflict with high media exposure is, well, very very low) or the figures since Oct7th in Ukraine (no journalist deaths) because the idea is to make things as bad they can be. For Israel/ Palestine (+Lebanon) it's 63 in 9ish weeks. If Russia were killing journalists at the same rate they'd have killed ~630 journalists over nearly two years. Or in other words Israel is killing them at ~40 times the rate Russia is. Shall I adjust for the population difference between Gaza and Ukraine too? OK, Israel is now killing journalists at ~750x the rate. That doesn't include any of the Gazan family members killed for Chilling Effect either. I don't think anyone thinks Russia's hands are actually clean, but as often happens you run through the stats and find that there's a certain amount of... rhetorical massaging of the message going on based not on what is actually happening but on who you're meant to dis/like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted December 13, 2023 Author Share Posted December 13, 2023 48 minutes ago, Zoraptor said: For the out and out war in Ukraine it's 15 journalists killed, in 22 months. Let's assume they're all Russia's fault, to make it as bad as we can for them. Similarly, don't use the 2023 figures (2 deaths, which for a large scale conflict with high media exposure is, well, very very low) or the figures since Oct7th in Ukraine (no journalist deaths) because the idea is to make things as bad they can be. For Israel/ Palestine (+Lebanon) it's 63 in 9ish weeks. If Russia were killing journalists at the same rate they'd have killed ~630 journalists over nearly two years. Or in other words Israel is killing them at ~40 times the rate Russia is. Shall I adjust for the population difference between Gaza and Ukraine too? OK, Israel is now killing journalists at ~750x the rate. That doesn't include any of the Gazan family members killed for Chilling Effect either. I don't think anyone thinks Russia's hands are actually clean, but as often happens you run through the stats and find that there's a certain amount of... rhetorical massaging of the message going on based not on what is actually happening but on who you're meant to dis/like. Let me ask you and others a different question. And I think most of us are guilty of selective outrage and what matters to us around that outrage. And I put myself in that group There are several active conflicts in the world at the moment but our focus and commentary is mostly Gaza and Ukraine And my question is about ICC war crimes and who should be charged. Do you think the following countries\people should be charged Israel\Netanyahu Hamas leadership Russia\Putin And each group should be charged for different war crimes based on what they have done in each conflict. And Putin is not being charged for what the Russian military has done in Ukraine, he is being charged for openly admitting he moved Ukrainian children to Russia I think all 3 groups need to be charged "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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