BG3

[Hurlshort]

1 hour ago, majestic said:

Quoted for truth. That is just one giant wall of text, only in spoken form. It is somewhat impressive how much he can talk without pausing, but it is just one stream of words with such a lack of inflection and (stress) pitch that it might well be read by some text-to-speech engine. Yikes.

That sounds like 90% of the stuff on Youtube to me, honestly.

[Raithe]

After not playing for the last week for various reasons, I booted BG3 up... and found that apparently due to the hotfix rollback and all, all my saves for the last (roughly) 9 hours of gameplay are "incompatible version".

Now I'm going to have to psych myself up to try to remember where I was in the game at the saves it does allow me to load and redo all the things I'd done...

[Sarex]

So the ending is definitely the weakest part of the game, kind of went out with a whimper. People are saying it's due to the cut content, but even quality wise it's very weak.

As far as the story goes

Spoiler

This definitely had no reason to have a 3 next to it's name, that was a pure attempt to grab people on nostalgia.

The main quest itself is kind of funny considering that in BG2 underdark you pretty much killed a whole room full of elder brains. I guess they got around that by bumping it up to be a nether brain...

Bg2 main story is miles better in my opinion, but that could very well be the nostalgia talking (probably is).

The music is really good. It has a more modern flavor and I liked that if for nothing else than it being different that everything else in the crpg genre, which is not to say that others games have bad music, this was just a breath of fresh air.

Environmental sound is still non existent or at least very subdued. Idk why it's hard to do some background noise like in BG2 and IWD2, it makes such a big difference in making the world feel alive. Tbh I would have traded a large part of the voice acting for that.

Gamplay is not as good as the rtwp game, simple as that, especially in big and drawn out fights.

I'll definitely play this game when the definitive edition comes out.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Sarex

[Bartimaeus]

1 hour ago, Sarex said:

Environmental sound is still non existent or at least very subdued. Idk why it's hard to do some background noise like in BG2 and IWD2, it makes such a big difference in making the world feel alive. Tbh I would have traded a large part of the voice acting for that.

I remember watching some long-form essay video on someone playing Shadows of Amn for the first time and them marvelling at how dark, dirty, and chaotic Athkatla is, and how it made it really feel like this wonderfully lived-in and organically constructed city, especially relative to most other games' cities - even much more modern games. Environmental audio and visuals alike definitely play into that, and I sometimes think about that video when I consider how attentive and perfectly at home I feel with certain games' environments while feeling completely out of sorts and not thinking anything of or even really paying attention to those of other games. Some games just do a much better job of creating a believable illusion, and it can be difficult to quantify.

From what I've played of BG3, I can't say that the game really quite gets me in this way even to the standard of BG1, and note that I love and obviously think a lot more of Shadows of Amn.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Bartimaeus
I have to specify "Shadows of Amn" because I think Throne of Bhaal is largely junk

[Sarex]

13 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

I have to specify "Shadows of Amn" because I think Throne of Bhaal is largely junk

Are there any expansions that were actually as good as the core game? I'm trying to think of some but nothing comes to mind.

[Wormerine]

Thank you Yahztee

edit. Very interesting point about choices we get as a player being already an expression of our character. Perhaps that a reason why I don't get along with class specific lines that don't align with my character - I made a decision regarding my player's profession, dont make a decision for me regarding his personality. It also might be why I love PoE1&2 disposition system so much. We get to make smaller choices, therefore expressing out willingless to roleplay the character a certain why, so when we get those more extreme benevolent/cruel options, they feel rewarding and appropriate - like the game noticing what I am trying to do and supporting it. I feel quite often at odds with BG3, however.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Wormerine

[Bartimaeus]

19 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Are there any expansions that were actually as good as the core game? I'm trying to think of some but nothing comes to mind.

The Conquerors for Age of Empires II...Artorias of the Abyss for Dark Souls 1 (though it may be the single worst example of an expansion that is technically integrated into the base game but due to hilariously terrible design is easily missable)...Mask of the Betrayer for NWN2...Lord of Destruction for Diablo II...

Well, that'd be my list anyways. There are probably others I'm not thinking of.

Completely unrelated: I've been meaning to mention this: with the original BG2 CD installer, the installer was not able to parse apostrophes, meaning that if the game was installed to e.g. "Games\Baldur's Gate II", it would silently strip the apostrophe and it would become "Baldurs Gates II" instead. I don't know what it looks like for Steam, but the official GOG installer installed my copy of Baldur's Gate 3 to..."Games\Baldurs Gate III". Default install location doesn't have an apostrophe. Nobody will probably find this as funny as I do: I used to have a discrete registry key I kept on hand that would fix where Windows thought BG2 was installed to, so to see history repeat itself 20+ years later is just too much for me.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Bartimaeus

[Bartimaeus]

52 minutes ago, Wormerine said:

Thank you Yahztee

edit. Very interesting point about choices we get as a player being already an expression of our character. Perhaps that a reason why I don't get along with class specific lines that don't align with my character - I made a decision regarding my player's profession, dont make a decision for me regarding his personality. It also might be why I love PoE1&2 disposition system so much. We get to make smaller choices, therefore expressing out willingless to roleplay the character a certain why, so when we get those more extreme benevolent/cruel options, they feel rewarding and appropriate - like the game noticing what I am trying to do and supporting it. I feel quite often at odds with BG3, however.

CRPG romance has been off-putting and kind of downright pathetic since basically forever. Seeing friendships and even romances develop between characters that are not your own would be waaay better IMO, and it'd more similar to watching characters develop like you would with a movie or TV show. I think player-to-character friendships can feel more organic, because it's usually less characters being boiled down to "you click da right buttons in order to unzip their pants" vs. "you did not click da right buttons to unzip their pants" and more "hey, the player is actually taking the time to talk to and seemingly care about the characters around them". Maybe I'm wrong and it's just rose-tinted glasses to think that, e.g., the PST party characters feel way more cohesive/grounded and less artificial in how they're presented and developed over the course of the game, I don't know. But I do know that seeing characters rubberband up and down with their "I LOVE/HATE YOU" meters as a result of usually minute decisions about (what are supposed to feel like) spontaneous situations and conversations seems farcical. That sort of thing should really be reserved for decisions with major value implications (...maybe like, um, violently stomping squirrels to death or tossing bards off cliffs for no reason, both of which everyone in your group just gives a thumbs up to and blissfully ignores), as I just don't think that's how these things usually work out in reality. Though actually unresolvable incompatibilities between characters should probably lead to conflict, and yet they inexplicably hardly ever do in these types of games as well! It's a "you can have your cake and eat it too" situation, except the cake tastes kind of bad.

Never mind that only characters mirroring one another liking and/or falling in love with each other is super boring. Most works of fiction with an ensemble team of characters are about people with all sorts of different backgrounds, beliefs, ambitions, values et al. growing to respect and like each other as they learn to appreciate those different qualities, particularly as those qualities come to use in a variety of ways in different kinds of situations. Imagine if Star Trek was just 10 of the same characters running around agreeing with each other: it'd be absolutely terrible.

If Lae'zel and Shadowheart magically grow to respect and/or outright fall in love (uh...well, maybe not) with one another by the end of Baldur's Gate 3 instead of keeping on with same old same old, I will happily eat at least some of my words here.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Bartimaeus

[Humanoid]

1 hour ago, Bartimaeus said:

Mask of the Betrayer for NWN

I think it holds true for both expansions to both NWN games? No personal experience though as the only campaign I played across all six base games and expansions anywhere near to completion was SoZ.

For the apostrophe stripping, I see GOG has also stripped it from "Sid Meiers Covert Action" so that's consistent I guess. Steam has the apostrophe for every Sid game intact, I don't see any non-Sid games to see how they handled those however.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

4 hours ago, Sarex said:

Are there any expansions that were actually as good as the core game? I'm trying to think of some but nothing comes to mind.

The examples that immediately come to mind are Shadows of Undrentide and Hordes of the Underdark as both are generally considered better than the original Neverwinter Nights campaign and, likewise, Mask of the Betrayer and Storm of Zehir are generally considered better than base Neverwinter Nights II. And, shifting genera, both War of the Chosen and Enemy Within were generally considered better than XCOM II and XCOM respectively. The Witcher III: Blood and Wine could also be claimed to be better than the base game, as could The Shivering Isles for Oblivion and both Tribunal and Bloodmoon for Morrowind.

I'm sure there are probably more, but it certainly seems within the realm of possibility that an expansion could meet or exceed the original game (particularly in the CRPG market). 

[Hawke64]

14 hours ago, majestic said:

That should be game design 101 since the mid 90ies, but it keeps creeping back into games: if any given game system is just there to gobble up inventory space and removing the player hassle results in it no longer being considered worthwhile, it is probably not worthwhile to begin with and should be removed.

That includes needing food or drink outside of survival games where it is a core mechanic (this one in particular was replaced by a much better well rested or food bonus mechanic a long, long time ago), vendors having limited gold and currency having weight, all of which this game does for no reason.

Agreed. The two things in the context of Larian's game specifically are the immersive sim elements (you can build a little tower out of the random items you find and it will mechanically affect the environment and progression) and the lack of options to disable it (or any other optional systems, unlike Solasta).

And it was rather uncomfortable that some important interactive objects were not highlighted. The puzzle leading to the Underdark and the illithid regenerative things, in particular.

11 hours ago, Sarex said:

So the ending is definitely the weakest part of the game, kind of went out with a whimper. People are saying it's due to the cut content, but even quality wise it's very weak.

As far as the story goes

  Reveal hidden contents

This definitely had no reason to have a 3 next to it's name, that was a pure attempt to grab people on nostalgia.

The main quest itself is kind of funny considering that in BG2 underdark you pretty much killed a whole room full of elder brains. I guess they got around that by bumping it up to be a nether brain...

Bg2 main story is miles better in my opinion, but that could very well be the nostalgia talking (probably is).

The music is really good. It has a more modern flavor and I liked that if for nothing else than it being different that everything else in the crpg genre, which is not to say that others games have bad music, this was just a breath of fresh air.

Environmental sound is still non existent or at least very subdued. Idk why it's hard to do some background noise like in BG2 and IWD2, it makes such a big difference in making the world feel alive. Tbh I would have traded a large part of the voice acting for that.

Gamplay is not as good as the rtwp game, simple as that, especially in big and drawn out fights.

I'll definitely play this game when the definitive edition comes out.

I guess, if the ending at least told the outcomes for the major NPCs and areas (1 2D picture with 1 sentence of text per NPC/area), it would have been more acceptable.

I am unsure why the connection with the original series was pursued in the manner Larian used. Granted, some of it I've read about on the forums (and not experienced myself), but even the parts unavoidably encountered on the critical path were odd.

9 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

CRPG romance has been off-putting and kind of downright pathetic since basically forever. Seeing friendships and even romances develop between characters that are not your own would be waaay better IMO, and it'd more similar to watching characters develop like you would with a movie or TV show. I think player-to-character friendships can feel more organic, because it's usually less characters being boiled down to "you click da right buttons in order to unzip their pants" vs. "you did not click da right buttons to unzip their pants" and more "hey, the player is actually taking the time to talk to and seemingly care about the characters around them". Maybe I'm wrong and it's just rose-tinted glasses to think that, e.g., the PST party characters feel way more cohesive/grounded and less artificial in how they're presented and developed over the course of the game, I don't know. But I do know that seeing characters rubberband up and down with their "I LOVE/HATE YOU" meters as a result of usually minute decisions about (what are supposed to feel like) spontaneous situations and conversations seems farcical. That sort of thing should really be reserved for decisions with major value implications (...maybe like, um, violently stomping squirrels to death or tossing bards off cliffs for no reason, both of which everyone in your group just gives a thumbs up to and blissfully ignores), as I just don't think that's how these things usually work out in reality. Though actually unresolvable incompatibilities between characters should probably lead to conflict, and yet they inexplicably hardly ever do in these types of games as well! It's a "you can have your cake and eat it too" situation, except the cake tastes kind of bad.

The player usually cares about their NPC companions to some extent, while humans in general are less likely to purposefully seek conflict in a limited social circle due to the social contract. So, unless there is a critical plot point where someone's values actively oppose each other, the companions not fighting seems realistic enough. And there is companions' personal emotional connection to the player's character, which supports not stabbing other companions in the face (unless asked to).

Also, I prefer when games consider friendships to be as valuable as romances.

[Wormerine]

8 hours ago, Deadly_Nightshade said:

The examples that immediately come to mind are Shadows of Undrentide and Hordes of the Underdark as both are generally considered better than the original Neverwinter Nights campaign and, likewise, Mask of the Betrayer and Storm of Zehir are generally considered better than base Neverwinter Nights II. And, shifting genera, both War of the Chosen and Enemy Within were generally considered better than XCOM II and XCOM respectively. The Witcher III: Blood and Wine could also be claimed to be better than the base game,

I agree with those, though I probably wouldn’t include XCOMs, (same with something like broodwar) as they expand existing campaign, rather than providing something new. 

To me Blood&Wine is the weakest content in W3 (it is still darn good), but I would put Heart of Stone as best Witcher3 content. Hopefully, Phantom Liberty will be much, much better than Cyberpunk base game. 

I would also add White March and to lesser extend Deadfire DLCs, being the best content in the respective titles.

Possibly Mooncrash is a more refined immersive sim than Prey? Though it’s also such a riff on the original design, that I think opinions might be split, depending what one likes from their immersive sims. 
Knife of Dundalk/Brigmore Witches > Dishonored

Does New Vegas count as a stand-alone expansion to Fallout3?

[Sarex]

4 hours ago, Hawke64 said:

I guess, if the ending at least told the outcomes for the major NPCs and areas (1 2D picture with 1 sentence of text per NPC/area), it would have been more acceptable.

Apparently that was cut content.

[MrBrown]

https://baldursgate3.game/news/patch-1-now-live_87

[kanisatha]

21 hours ago, InsaneCommander said:

I must have made the wrong choices in dialogue and exploration because the game just gave me two spoilers in a Gale cutscene. It was as if I knew about the artifact and the Absolute

According to many accounts on the Larian forum this is quite common throughout the game, where the game assumes you said/did things a certain way, and responds based on that assumption, regardless of what you *actually* said/did in the game.

[Humanoid]

Yeah, going through the patch notes I see plenty of fixes addressing continuity issues like that.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

18 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

CRPG romance has been off-putting and kind of downright pathetic since basically forever. Seeing friendships and even romances develop between characters that are not your own would be waaay better IMO, and it'd more similar to watching characters develop like you would with a movie or TV show. I think player-to-character friendships can feel more organic, because it's usually less characters being boiled down to "you click da right buttons in order to unzip their pants" vs. "you did not click da right buttons to unzip their pants" and more "hey, the player is actually taking the time to talk to and seemingly care about the characters around them". Maybe I'm wrong and it's just rose-tinted glasses to think that, e.g., the PST party characters feel way more cohesive/grounded and less artificial in how they're presented and developed over the course of the game, I don't know. But I do know that seeing characters rubberband up and down with their "I LOVE/HATE YOU" meters as a result of usually minute decisions about (what are supposed to feel like) spontaneous situations and conversations seems farcical. That sort of thing should really be reserved for decisions with major value implications (...maybe like, um, violently stomping squirrels to death or tossing bards off cliffs for no reason, both of which everyone in your group just gives a thumbs up to and blissfully ignores), as I just don't think that's how these things usually work out in reality. Though actually unresolvable incompatibilities between characters should probably lead to conflict, and yet they inexplicably hardly ever do in these types of games as well! It's a "you can have your cake and eat it too" situation, except the cake tastes kind of bad.

Never mind that only characters mirroring one another liking and/or falling in love with each other is super boring. Most works of fiction with an ensemble team of characters are about people with all sorts of different backgrounds, beliefs, ambitions, values et al. growing to respect and like each other as they learn to appreciate those different qualities, particularly as those qualities come to use in a variety of ways in different kinds of situations. Imagine if Star Trek was just 10 of the same characters running around agreeing with each other: it'd be absolutely terrible.

If Lae'zel and Shadowheart magically grow to respect and/or outright fall in love (uh...well, maybe not) with one another by the end of Baldur's Gate 3 instead of keeping on with same old same old, I will happily eat at least some of my words here.

I think one of the better ways to implement CRPG romance would be via the origins we see in this game, as it creates a degree of separation between the player and the character that isn't there with a custom character. That could provide the room to shift it more character oriented story arc the player is in the driver's seat for as opposed to providing a waifu for the player's avatar. Like I think I can more easily appreciate Karlach developing a toxic sexual relationship with Lae'zel than making them the player's potential hot githyanki girlfriend or devilish muscle girl waifu regardless of what kind of character the player is. This probably wouldn't please some of the romance fans, both in terms of access and by the possibility of getting rejected in favor of a npc, but I think it'd make it better for my tastes.

[InsaneCommander]

6 hours ago, kanisatha said:

According to many accounts on the Larian forum this is quite common throughout the game, where the game assumes you said/did things a certain way, and responds based on that assumption, regardless of what you *actually* said/did in the game.

It happened again yesterday. I was asked to rescue someone in the west and one of the dialogue options was a specific description of the location, that I never heard about. I wonder if the fixes will still allow me to learn about these things naturally.

[InsaneCommander]

On 8/24/2023 at 6:56 PM, Wormerine said:

Thank you Yahztee

edit. Very interesting point about choices we get as a player being already an expression of our character. Perhaps that a reason why I don't get along with class specific lines that don't align with my character - I made a decision regarding my player's profession, dont make a decision for me regarding his personality. It also might be why I love PoE1&2 disposition system so much. We get to make smaller choices, therefore expressing out willingless to roleplay the character a certain why, so when we get those more extreme benevolent/cruel options, they feel rewarding and appropriate - like the game noticing what I am trying to do and supporting it. I feel quite often at odds with BG3, however.

“…and then you don’t have to play through hours and hours of an RPG selecting the right dialogue options to see it.”

Tell that to the “Lae’zel sex speedrun” in eight three minutes.

[Keyrock]

Wait, wait, wait, it's been brought to my attention that the man, the myth, the legend J K Simmons does voice work in this game. That's all the more reason to play this, which I intend to at some point. Drat, I almost wish that I hadn't started Remnant 2, but I did and Remnant 2 is awesome so I'm not about to stop playing it until probably multiple playthroughs so that I can unlock all the classes archetypes and try them out. Oh well, it gives me something to look forward to. I guess it's back to mostly avoiding this thread to avoid spoilers. Carry on.

[MrBrown]

8 minutes ago, Keyrock said:

Wait, wait, wait, it's been brought to my attention that the man, the myth, the legend J K Simmons does voice work in this game. That's all the more reason to play this, which I intend to at some point.

While he plays a pretty important character, he doesn't have a massive amount of lines. So don't set yourself up for disappointment.

Personally, I found his character to not be very interesting.

[Gorgon]

The cutscenes are hit and miss, often overly explanatory. many of the main characters are a bit too much on the nose. Simmons screams the overly obvious several times like it was a revelation. without going into spoilers. 

[Gorgon]

The scene with Elminster, not Simmons, was just terrible. I think that one scene was supposed to do everything, and as a result it just went on for way too long. ( the first one, i dunno if there are more)

[Wormerine]

3 hours ago, Keyrock said:

Wait, wait, wait, it's been brought to my attention that the man, the myth, the legend J K Simmons does voice work in this game.

Yes, there was some advertising about big name talent playing game's major antagonists. Don't get too excited - he is barely in the game, and you don't get to interact with him much.

[Hawke64]

17 hours ago, Wormerine said:

Yes, there was some advertising about big name talent playing game's major antagonists. Don't get too excited - he is barely in the game, and you don't get to interact with him much.

Ketheric Thorm is the main antagonist of the second act (3 acts in total), so it could be said that he is present, though my interactions with the character consisted mostly of Skip, Skip, Skip, Combat, Loot.
The trailer:

Spoiler

 

---

Continued my second playthrough. Haven't updated the game, so some of the things might have been fixed with the patch. I discovered that my Str Sorcerer can break most of the doors and walls, thus I got a rogue much later. I also was able to recruit Minthara, went with her to the Goblin Camp (to get the explosives), and told the guard that we were there to see Minthara (there was no additional Minthara). Somehow, I doubt that we were supposed to return to the area.

The PC's facial animations are still ridiculous and it would have been better if the camera was pointing where the PC was looking at and shown only their back and shoulders. Also, now the party consists mostly of hirelings and it feels somehow jollier (no one threatens the PC). At some point the Dark Urge Butler (I forgot the name) appeared where the other party members could reach him and initiated a dialogue with the PC. The party got 10XP and the next dialogue with the Butler was just Dark Urgency standing and talking to himself with the Butler's voice.

The final boss of the act was defeated with the help of the explosives and fire arrows and the party reached the third act at level 4 (Minthara at 6).

Edit. Dark Urgency discovered his love for music and decided to learn to play violin (I wanted to get the expertise in Persuasion and something more melee-focused, like the College of Swords subclass, because, considering the play style, a Paladin Oath would not last long). The newly-hired wizard covered the casting aspect.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Hawke64