Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous, Part 6

[Sarex]

2 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

remove 2/3 o' wotr combat and more than a few maps become barren wastelands, which means you likely make maps smaller further reducing gameplay hours 'cause less o' the exploration is needed. anybody doubt a pathfinder game where you reach level 20 and mythic rank 9 or 10  after a couple dozen hours would enrage the hardcore fans? that's not how it were done in baldur's gate.

HA! Good Fun!

2/3 is to much, but the whole game could have been reduced by 1/3 to 1/4 across the board. BG was not 220 hours long...

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

43 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Yeah, I'd have nothing against that, either.

Some of the random encounters are asinine to the max: it's simply unfathomable that an experienced group of highly perceptive adventurers could suddenly find themselves surrounded by a group of ash giants who are all less than 30ft away, for instance. I mean, it just wouldn't happen no matter what. But most of the random encounters are a variation on that kind of theme.

While I can understand the random encounters on a design or lore level (there needs to be some danger to sleep and you are in a demon infested hellscape), in practice it's just annoying. Getting my unbuffed backline mowed down by archer gang #42069 is more annoying and tedious than challenging.

13 minutes ago, Sarex said:

I'm not sure if you are including questlines in encounters, but I would. Than again it's a big question mark if having more time would equal more quality.

I'm pretty sure that there is nothing much that could be done around the art style/environment graphics, as they probably don't have the people capable of it. I still wish they would go for true isometric like PoE.

Combat encounters would become better by the simple fact that there would be less of them and thus less repetition. Not even counting the extra time for polish and new ideas.

What they could change, and I think this would make a huge difference to the player experience, is make the environment more reactive to player actions and the story. A simple example is having different versions of Drezen throughout the story, or if you rebuild or destroy some location it's actually presented as such. This was a big let down in Kingmaker for me too, especially considering how building was a big part of it.

Apart from the above, the dialogue could also use some work, or to be more precise, the alignment dialogues are horrific (literally in some cases).

I'm less inclined to cut quests than cut or condense the mobs in quests or specfix areas, but it's been a while and there are definitely certain quests that could be cut. Anything with Owlcat puzzles comes to mind.

Some areas are fine, but others are packed so much you can throw a rock in any direction and hit a mob. Off the top of my head and several months removed from having played WotR, I think Wintersun and the Baphomet mazes would have both benefitted from less but better designed mobs. For a guy known as the most clever demon lord the goat man really should use more tricks besides minotaur pairs.

It's definitely a hard agree on the environment.

Dialogue is bad but I'd be lying if on a meta level "(Evil) I don't like you, Die! [Attack]" or "(Lawful) You broke the law, Die! [Attack]" didn't make me laugh. It sucks to play but it feels like Owlcat is trolling a specific type of edgelord who wants to be Doctor Doom and instead has to be an insufferable bureaucrat.

[Gromnir]

14 minutes ago, Sarex said:

2/3 is to much, but the whole game could have been reduced by 1/3 to 1/4 across the board. BG was not 220 hours long...

xp cap for bg were 89,000. totsc raised it to 161,000. so your vanilla bg fighter could reach level seven, and eight with totsc. 

and bg were pretty freaking long, much longer than it is today. people don't recall how the walking speed outta combat were increased with ee and mods. 

HA! Good Fun!

[xzar_monty]

1 hour ago, Sarex said:

Apart from the above, the dialogue could also use some work, or to be more precise, the alignment dialogues are horrific (literally in some cases).

In a nutshell, it seems that the lawful choice is evil, and the evil choice is just stupid.

In all games like this, I tend to play a chaotic character that leans slightly towards good but is often neutral and almost never evil. So, I was able to make choices that didn't seem completely idiotic, but boy oh boy the lawful and evil choices looked dumb.

[roguefrog]

There's some stupid nasty fights if you are determined to go at in real-time. 

The one critical path BS fight in the early game was that dude that summons swarms in Grey Garrison. He is solely responsible for me switching to turn-based mode for the rest of the game. That one guy. I just really hate that man. 

I mean I wouldn't encounter such an impossible fight until Playful Darkness, and he's optional side area challenge boss galore on encounter. It's more fun to return at the end of Act 4 and destroy him. (It's still hard)

Edited July 2, 2023 by roguefrog

[Gromnir]

the woman with the scythe who summons the swarms luckily has not great initiative, and thanks to the ritual which functional perma hastes your party at the start o' your grey garrison attack, it is relative easy to rush her before she can do anything save buff herself. we always have at least one dog, wolf or leopard in a party, so chances are she is tripped and then subsequently eliminated before she can do any damage to us whatsoever. 

on the other hand, othirubu, the alchemist, is the grey garrison encounter which gave/gives us the most trouble. those blinding bombs are no joke. even after multiple replays we need be extra careful with the alchemist encounter.

particular at the lower wotr levels, depending on your party composition and typical strategies, difficulty is gonna be subjective. we literal have only two different winning approaches to the unfair water elemental encounter from the shield maze. one option requires a leopard animal companion and the other depends on kiting and a whole lotta luck. 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 2, 2023 by Gromnir

[xzar_monty]

23 minutes ago, roguefrog said:

The one critical path BS fight in the early game was that dude that summons swarms in Grey Garrison. He is solely responsible for me switching to turn-based mode for the rest of the game. That one guy. I just really hate that man.

Wow! It's not the easiest fight by any means, I agree, but I didn't find it that difficult, either. I mean, there's a spell that can really help you grease your way out of that encounter. Also, I think Jeslyn is female, not that it matters.

@Gromnir: I only came to BG after having played BG2, and I have to say that playing the games in that order, it wasn't easy to have much enthusiasm for BG. The amount of aimless-seeming walking around that you had to do on mostly empty maps was just... astonishing. BG2 had none of that. I suppose the dev team had received some fairly strong criticism and reacted accordingly. Brilliant, I'd say.

[xzar_monty]

2 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

particular at the lower wotr levels, depending on your party composition and typical strategies, difficulty is gonna be subjective. we literal have only two different winning approaches to the unfair water elemental encounter from the shield maze. one option requires a leopard animal companion and the other depends on kiting and a whole lotta luck.

I mean, yeah. Even on Core, that water elemental is really difficult given how few options you have. (But it's optional, so not all that relevant to what @roguefrog said.)

I'm trying to think of the most difficult encounter that I had before Playful Darkness, but I'm not sure what it would be. I'm not saying that nothing was difficult, only that nothing stood out as clearly so much more difficult than any of the others. Well, there's a demon encounter of some kind in Areelu's Lab, and I do remember now that that was really quite hard and required more than a few tries.

[Gromnir]

19 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Brilliant, I'd say.

#1 complaint o' all the ie games were regarding difficulty... some folks said too ez and others too hard, but difficulty were always the most common issue.

#2 (or #3) complaint o' bg were all the emptyish maps with endless mowing to find brief and pointless hobgoblin/wolf/whatever encounters. wasted hours.

(not immediate relevant, but #3 or #2 complaint for bg were the underdeveloped joinable npcs, which were also obvious addressed in bg2)

durlag's tower from totsc were kinda the first expression o' bioware's solution to the complaints 'bout bg monotony, and most fans responded positive to durlag's tower maps and encounter density/types. the walking speed of parties was not increased until bg2, but durlag's represented a serious improvement based on the preponderance o' boardie feedback

#1 complaint for bg2 was difficulty.

#2 complaint for bg2 were the lack of bg-style exploration.

no win.

HA! Good Fun!

ps (edit) am gonna observe how the first time you played wotr, chances are you didn't know which encounters were critical. yeah, jeslyn (grey garrison) swarm lady had a key you required, but you didn't know she had the key until you killed her, yes? we didn't know playful darkness were optional, not the first time we encountered it. the midnight fane in pnp were much different, so we had no useful guides. 

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Gromnir

[InsaneCommander]

I returned to Drezen and the place is a mess. It looks worse than my Chaotic Good Kingdom in Pathfinder: Kingmaker, which literally had garbage piles on the streets. Galfrey left on a suicide mission, but Anevia was really good at making the queen look nice and respectful to me. There was even a funeral!

Iomedae showed up (funny to see everyone bending the knee, even Regill, and Nenio not asking any weird questions) and Nocticula and Areelu joined the party. Nocticula’s comment about Iomedae’s incompetence was gold. If I was there in my character's place I'd try to hold my laughter making it even worse. Iomedae would be pissed.

And there was also this one:
 

Spoiler

And who would have guessed that Regill would side with Iomedae and Seelah wouldn’t?

 

5 hours ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

Eh, I'm pretty sure the great dreamer would just look up a guide.

I know I will.

[roguefrog]

11 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Wow! It's not the easiest fight by any means, I agree, but I didn't find it that difficult, either. I mean, there's a spell that can really help you grease your way out of that encounter. 

I tried grease. Many times. Both on the adds to try and rush her and on her herself. Didn't work. 

I tried dozens of other things as well. Once the swarms where out it was a party wipe within 20 seconds. I think I would have to do some extreme cheese, like running my party out of the room and separating out the enemies piecemeal. I did try this once but still wiped.
 

Once I switched to Turn-based I beat it first try, although near the end of the fight every party member was down except for Lann and there were two archers left. It was still a ****show. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by roguefrog

[Gromnir]

observation: the battle with jeslyn is also more difficult if you do not have the aid o' the inquisitors. 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gorth]

I'm probably "gimping" myself a bit in my current Lich game, because... not sure. My head cannon just decided my character is a powerful necromancer (eventually, give it a few more levels), commanding hordes of under minions and holding sway over the already dead. Unlike my Trickster/Legendary game, where Nenio and Ember both had beefed up Evocation/Conjuration and Enchantment/Illusion capabilities to overcome magic resistances. Necromantic spells feels a bit more subtle in nature.  Several of them works best against undead/dead opponents by the look of it. It has some direct damage and some control ability, but nowhere near the aforementioned duo did in my first play through. Also trying to add a bit of abjuration to the mix, because I feel a vulnerable without a tonne of armour and 500hp whatever silly amount my Legendary Barbarian ended up with.

[213374U]

On 7/2/2023 at 1:41 AM, Gromnir said:

'course why would a casual player know how op is bane of spirit or how to use skalds to roll stomp through melee?

Game knowledge as opposed to general rules knowledge. It's funny because I was just upgrading that relic... it just wasn't ready by the time I did Ivory Sanctum. Perhaps it would be better if they simply relabelled the difficulty levels and Core was called something else, given the general consensus about stat bloat. A bit counter intuitive, but I don't remember what the default suggested mode is.

[Sarex]

5 hours ago, 213374U said:

Game knowledge as opposed to general rules knowledge. It's funny because I was just upgrading that relic... it just wasn't ready by the time I did Ivory Sanctum. Perhaps it would be better if they simply relabelled the difficulty levels and Core was called something else, given the general consensus about stat bloat. A bit counter intuitive, but I don't remember what the default suggested mode is.

Normal, the one below core.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

25 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Normal, the one below core.

I think they put in one between them, Daring or something.

[Sarex]

10 minutes ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

I think they put in one between them, Daring or something.

Did not know that.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

49 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Did not know that.

I was a little confused when I saw it the first time ngl. It's pretty much Normal but without the 20% damage reduction.

[213374U]

1 hour ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

I think they put in one between them, Daring or something.

I just checked, you are right. Guess I mostly have myself to blame for the annoying trash then. Still believe the stat bloat is unjustified on anything below Hard, but I tend to lean more toward thematical builds than uber munchkin-ism (i.e. I might go for a rogue dip with Seelah, but I can't explain Crane monk with Camellia).

Mildly disappointing to verify that in a post-SCS world, CRPG AI is still dumb as a bag of hammers, and cranking stats up to 11 is still the bread and butter of 'challenge'.

[InsaneCommander]

Who recruited a squadron of Babaus and left it in Drezen? No wonder the place was invaded! Are they deserters*?

 

Spoiler

And why is it so difficult to go to the Hellknights outpost? Even with teleport? First I find Sul, who needs an escort to Drezen. Then it’s Ember’s fan club. Wonder who will turn up next time. My bet is on Early Sunset.

Well, at least time will pass and my generals will return to lead the armies. I’m supposed to conquer all regions in the Worldwound and get to all these “time sensitive” quests. I hope at least Iz is not really a timed event.

*Ok, after doing Ember's quest I have an idea where those Babaus came from.

[Gromnir]

6 hours ago, 213374U said:

Game knowledge as opposed to general rules knowledge. It's funny because I was just upgrading that relic... it just wasn't ready by the time I did Ivory Sanctum. Perhaps it would be better if they simply relabelled the difficulty levels and Core was called something else, given the general consensus about stat bloat. A bit counter intuitive, but I don't remember what the default suggested mode is.

stat bloat is not necessarily the problem. pnp pathfinder is designed for four person parties and there is no reload, so even if owlcat made some effort to balance the game, bloat would be a likely fix to the advantages a Crpg player enjoys.

also, the "general consensus" is not what you assume. the owlcat forums get little traffic nowadays, but during the beta and immediate following the release o' the game there were some activity in spite o' the complete absence o' developer feedback. again, stat bloat isn't the real issue 'cause is not all encounters which is problematic. if were all, then you would simple drop the difficulty slider a bit and everything would be swell. the problem is the difficulty spikes related to specific encounters, and not all such encounters is predictable boss fights. even so, at the owlcat forums, the "general consensus" were that if you saw a problem with playful darkness, blackwater or baphomet, then you were playing the wrong game and maybe you should try mario kart or something similar instead. 

and keep in mind that the game is easier today than it were at release, particularly if you have the additional dlc loaded which results in your party being overlevel'd and over geared compared to original release parties. of the handful o' balance fixes owlcat bothered to implement, most have later game impact when you are likely roll-stomping regardless. example: aivu were nerfed, but you only get aivu at mythic three and the changes didn't have much impact until she hit mythic six or so. 

the stat bloat was a crude way for owlcat to deal with player power and for most encounters that ain't a problem, but 'cause the game appears designed to scale down from unfair, numerous encounters on more reasonable difficulty tiers are prohibitive challenging for players who has not invested hundreds o' hours in the system 'cause the normal encounters nevertheless require exploitive behaviour. sure, on core or normal you don't need all the exploits, but you are gonna need a few to overcome playful darkness. 

nevertheless, we understand the owlcat approach 'cause a simple numerical approach to adjusting difficulty is not resource challenging. the owlcat approach is rational and reasonable even if it punishes casual players. what is curious is the indifference and even applause from the fanbase as 'posed to a general consensus o' complaint. 

HA! Good Fun!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

41 minutes ago, 213374U said:

I just checked, you are right. Guess I mostly have myself to blame for the annoying trash then. Still believe the stat bloat is unjustified on anything below Hard, but I tend to lean more toward thematical builds than uber munchkin-ism (i.e. I might go for a rogue dip with Seelah, but I can't explain Crane monk with Camellia).

Mildly disappointing to verify that in a post-SCS world, CRPG AI is still dumb as a bag of hammers, and cranking stats up to 11 is still the bread and butter of 'challenge'.

Unless you designed the game I can't see how you're to blame, trash bloat is endemic to the game.

I too would prefer if stat bloat was confined to the Hard and higher difficulties, it sucks that a sword and board heavy armor tank will struggle on Core. Ditto on AI, but SCS is a labor of love that just won't happen on a commercial game.

[Gromnir]

1 hour ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

it sucks that a sword and board heavy armor tank will struggle on Core.

too bad, but this is one thing owlcat got right. the reality is, you identify a pathfinder problem which owlcat translated accurate. go to the paizo forums and look for complaints about sword-and-board v. dex tanks, particularly on levels past twelve or so. pathfinder tanks is so not like mmorpg tanks which is designed to facetank bosses, and sword-and-board is arguable the worst tank option. especial with wotr and epic opponents, a pnp sword-and-board tank is gonna get hit more often and have less party utility than a dex tank. is not a bloat issue or even an owlcat implementation issue 'bout which you rail. 

is a whole lotta stuff owlcat does wrong with wotr and their pathfinder implementation, but the diminishing value o' sword-and-board tanks were a paizo problem long before owlcat began breaking things. 

HA! Good Fun!

[uuuhhii]

4 hours ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

Unless you designed the game I can't see how you're to blame, trash bloat is endemic to the game.

I too would prefer if stat bloat was confined to the Hard and higher difficulties, it sucks that a sword and board heavy armor tank will struggle on Core. Ditto on AI, but SCS is a labor of love that just won't happen on a commercial game.

they blame themself for not coming up with a broken build that can overcome trash mob easily

maybe

but that is not players job

owlcat really need to get better at game design and stop putting stupid garbage puzzle in their barely functioning game

[roguefrog]

Aaaaaand game complete. Took 289 hours.

All of Act 1 played in real-time w/ pause except when I got to the swarm boss in grey garrison, then turn-based ever after (with only some situational switches back)

Act 6 didn’t overstay its welcome or totally **** the bed like Kingmaker thank the lord! It’s a pretty straightforward linear section of combat encounters and dialog bits.

The hardest fight in the act was the boss demon during the approach before setting up camp. Everything after paled in comparison. The last boss is kind of a joke. So much so they auto heal a certain number of times to full life just to prolong it. I did get 3 nat 20 greater dispels off that pretty much striped most buffs. Enough that my party could land hits no problem.

The penultimate boss fight was also hilariously easy. I used the waterfall Azata spell which is great and has a chance to knock down an enemy. Sure enough he got knocked down. The rest of the fight was my melee completely hacking the guy on the floor to pieces.

Edited July 4, 2023 by roguefrog