Ukraine Conflict - "An empire founded by war has to maintain itself by war"

[Gfted1]

15 minutes ago, Hurlshort said:

The West is certainly not perfect, but the big difference is you can complain about the Western countries while living in those Western Countries and not get arrested by the Western governments. It's a pretty big difference. Also, habeas corpus.

Of course thats all wonderful. Being a white male in the USA, Im virtually a demigod.

But why do we try to impose our freedoms on other countries...or more importantly, other cultures?

[Malcador]

5 minutes ago, Gfted1 said:

But why do we try to impose our freedoms on other countries...or more importantly, other cultures?

Well not all, freedom and democracy for those we need for money.  The rest are too complicated so, who cares.

[xzar_monty]

16 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Well not all, freedom and democracy for those we need for money.  The rest are too complicated so, who cares.

Your cynicism is quite frankly breathtaking.

[Malcador]

10 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Your cynicism is quite frankly breathtaking.

Can never be too cynical when it comes to state's motivations for things.  The people in those states probably even more so.

[Chilloutman]

its simple real politik really. 'West' is maybe 1/4 of the world. So to keep in game we need to be friendly even with those we would rather not as long as they don't do anything too stopid. Because if we don't - someone else will and it can be much worse for us and for them as well (probably). West of course want to expand itself but problem is that west is also relatively democratic so you need to deal with internal politics as well. Thats why there is this push for 'democratisation' of others so they can join the 'West'. 

[BruceVC]

Just now, Gfted1 said:

Of course thats all wonderful. Being a white male in the USA, Im virtually a demigod.

But why do we try to impose our freedoms on other countries...or more importantly, other cultures?

Im not sure  if you being serious but I will respond as if you are 

What freedoms does the US try to impose on countries? Human rights and the freedoms of Democracy is not  unique to the US, its universal and its followed and enforced by the likes of the UN and its various charters. The US did not create property rights or the right to vote in a free and fair  election, these rights evolved over hundreds of years. Many  countries adhere to these  types of principles

Lets take Qatar and the accusations of human rights abuses. This is about  things like  working conditions and the fact initially the foreign  laborers didnt have contracts. Now these are considered conditions of  labor laws, its not the US telling Qatar they needed to change the working conditions. Its the  reality of international law that is practised in most countries. Its like saying " the US is demanding that child labor doesnt exist" ....its not just the US, its the UN and human rights charters that believe this 

 

 

 

[BruceVC]

Just now, Malcador said:

Well not all, freedom and democracy for those we need for money.  The rest are too complicated so, who cares.

What  do you mean by too complicated? Can you give an example 

[xzar_monty]

6 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Can never be too cynical when it comes to state's motivations for things.  The people in those states probably even more so.

Manifestly not true: cynicism as an attitude is extremely corrosive and doesn't lead to good decisions or a good life. It's rare that cynicism is useful in any way. Your phrasing of "... we need for money", emphasis mine, also sounds like a severe case of self-loathing. For example, my stance on other people isn't predominantly exploitative, even though I am from "the West". Oh, I know, you'll laugh, but that's fine.

It is true that any decision at all, even the most altruistic-seeming ones, can be viewed as cynically selfish if one is so inclined; Mark Twain demonstrates this quite unassailably in his smallish volume What is Man?  If I help my neighbor, it is always possible to say that I only do it so that I can feel good about myself and that the help my neighbor receives is essentially meaningless. But the reasonable counter-argument to this is that this viewpoint is generally not helpful, as it does not lead to good decisions or actions, and it most certainly isn't conducive to, say, happiness.

To anticipate one possible retort: no, the alternative to cynicism certainly isn't naiveté. "The West" also really does do some very stupid things, but that's a different matter.

[Malcador]

19 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Manifestly not true: cynicism as an attitude is extremely corrosive and doesn't lead to good decisions or a good life. It's rare that cynicism is useful in any way. Your phrasing of "... we need for money", emphasis mine, also sounds like a severe case of self-loathing. For example, my stance on other people isn't predominantly exploitative, even though I am from "the West". Oh, I know, you'll laugh, but that's fine.

In day to day life dealing with individuals sure is corrosive and so on. Assuming diplomats and politicians are full of crap when they complain of injustice and speak of morality (highlight was the British official saying how dare a P5 member attack a smaller nation), not really. I've seen that enough in my brief time on this Earth.  As for self loathing, what the **** are you on about ?

As people told me when this war started, there are geopolitically revelant places and irrelevant ones, which was I getting at with my reply to Gfted1. 

30 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

What  do you mean by too complicated? Can you give an example 

Well complicated in that the situation needs explaining.  See Yemen, Tigray, Myanmar.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Malcador

[Gfted1]

@BruceVC As your travels have shown you, the world is a multi-faceted place, not black and white. Different cultures and countries live completely different lives from you and I and thats ok. Were closer to solving controlled fusion reactions than we are to understanding Asia culture.  

I think its weird weve got such a chub for defending Taiwan. I mean, I know we want their sweet sweet IC production (probably why China wants it too), but if we can buy a decade or so then new plants will come online and Ill be curious to see if we cut them loose. Taiwans best defense? Rig everything to blow.

[Gorgon]

Yeah, they definately need a "Red Dawn" protocol on all their fab plants. 

[Gorgon]

57 minutes ago, Chilloutman said:

its simple real politik really. 'West' is maybe 1/4 of the world. So to keep in game we need to be friendly even with those we would rather not as long as they don't do anything too stopid. Because if we don't - someone else will and it can be much worse for us and for them as well (probably). West of course want to expand itself but problem is that west is also relatively democratic so you need to deal with internal politics as well. Thats why there is this push for 'democratisation' of others so they can join the 'West'. 

[BruceVC]

Just now, Gfted1 said:

@BruceVC As your travels have shown you, the world is a multi-faceted place, not black and white. Different cultures and countries live completely different lives from you and I and thats ok. Were closer to solving controlled fusion reactions than we are to understanding Asia culture.  

I think its weird weve got such a chub for defending Taiwan. I mean, I know we want their sweet sweet IC production (probably why China wants it too), but if we can buy a decade or so then new plants will come online and Ill be curious to see if we cut them loose. Taiwans best defense? Rig everything to blow.

Yes I agree about Taiwan, its so far removed from significant  US\Western  interests it doesnt seem like its worth a conventional or serious trade war with China. Taiwan is complicated

But Ukraine is different because this is about drawing a line to end Putins constant militancy, hegemony and warmongering. Also the invasion destabilizes the EU and Putin has made this about the West and blamed the US\NATO specifically. So I consider the support for Ukraine different to support for the Taiwan 

But end of the day Putin created this proxy war and the West will finish it 

 

[Elerond]

4 hours ago, Gfted1 said:

I wonder how the "West" slid into the position of dictating to every other country how their citizens should be living? I guess might makes right? We'll just bury them economically or through force until they do what we want.  Sucks to be them, Im glad I live in the powerful side. 

About millennium ago European nations were able to defend against invasions from east and south by more advanced nations, which lead era where European nations focused big sunk of their resources to develop more advanced warfare, which lead about 500 years later in era where European nations started compete against each other on discovering 'new lands', which they were able to conquer with relative ease with their new armament and we still live age where people descending from those European nations have advantage in warfare they use.

[Gorgon]

The hegemony of the west is coming to an end though. We used to own 90% of everything between us, economically anyway.  Since then, emerging markets as we called them, are about done emerging.  

[xzar_monty]

6 minutes ago, Gorgon said:

The hegemony of the west is coming to an end though. We used to own 90% of everything between us, economically anyway.  Since then, emerging markets as we called them, are about done emerging.  

This is one of those "will be extremely interesting to see how it turns out" historical developments. Is possibly coming to an end, sure. Whether that's "good" or "bad" and for whom is, again, extremely interesting.

[Lexx]

Do we need to own everything?

[Gorgon]

I don't expect things to be better with totalitarian regimes with no respect for individual right vying for power, and nothing stopping them. 

[Gorth]

10 hours ago, Hurlshort said:

The West is certainly not perfect, but the big difference is you can complain about the Western countries while living in those Western Countries and not get arrested by the Western governments. It's a pretty big difference. Also, habeas corpus.

Unfortunately that doesn't apply to Australia

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Gorgon said:

The hegemony of the west is coming to an end though. We used to own 90% of everything between us, economically anyway.  Since then, emerging markets as we called them, are about done emerging.  

What do you mean  by Western  hegemony? In the 19th century and before hegemony was defined by territory and size of empire because having lots of colonies gave you advantages like access to minerals and cheap labor

Those days are long gone and countries dont need that kind of control to be economically or militarily powerful. So the view that the West use to own 90% of things I dont understand how that changes the influence of the West which is economic influence only 

Because firstly the West is not monolithic and consists of different countries and they dont have the same goals or geopolitical aspirations and then  major global events and policies  are influenced  through the UN unless Western stability is directly threatened like with Putin's War which means you would understandably see a Western response

And then what emerging markets do you think will surpass Western economic influence and in what way? And the reason I ask is economic hegemony is organic and it cant change  through ideology, it requires successful and sustainable policies 

 

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Lexx said:

Do we need to own everything?

No you dont, well said 

[xzar_monty]

Yet again: https://tass.com/emergencies/1527319

And in other news, the Russian army is being absolutely as expected: brutal beyond reason, beyond nightmares. Comments on the UN report, focus on rape and violence: https://twitter.com/mykhed_o/status/1584867753860558848/

Edited October 26, 2022 by xzar_monty

[Lexx]

"A firefighting train is used in the effort to tackle the blaze."

Damn. I didn't know firefighting trains are a thing.

[ShadySands]

Trains have more career options than I do. I think I had one as a pilot once too 

[xzar_monty]

Just read an interview with Christo Grozev, Bellingcat's main researcher on Russia. The most significant takeaway for me was that everyone near Putin knew well before the war that the Russian army was in a terrible state. But Putin was completely unaware.